5 ms·

> We're reviewing your app, not theirs, so what they can do is irrelevant rules for thee but not for me Apple has never been fair with its review, sadly. > I

by floomk 3y ago

> We're reviewing your app, not theirs, so what they can do is irrelevant rules for thee but not for me Apple has never been fair with its review, sadly. > I would expect Apple's response to be "change it back". Companies should not have to bend over to apple's whims just to get their software in end user hands. Hopefully upcoming EU regulation will reign apple's overreach in a bit.

marvin 3y ago
You’re celebrating the possibility that EU regulation will remove Apple’s ability to enforce good user experience?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- codeguro 3y ago
  Apple doesn't get to dictate what constitutes a good user experience. Especially for me - that is my prerogative and mine alone. So yes, I will be extremely happy with it. This opens doors to all kinds of software that can compete with one another, and if I don't like it, I can simply uninstall it myself.
  - extragood 3y ago
    Just one more bit of anecdotal evidence to support your view. Our app was rejected after review until we updated an external support doc to which the app linked. The doc contained system requirements for both iOS and Android devices, and we were specifically rejected for even having mentioned the competing operating system.
    - andrekandre 3y ago
      > The doc contained system requirements for both iOS and Android devices, and we were specifically rejected for even having mentioned the competing operating system. same, for us we just open all links in safari now, so if mentions of android show up its not "in the app"... an arguably worsened user experience for no good reason except to keep apple happy
  - riwsky 3y ago
    If open doors did a better job of UX than apple, then you would have been using Android instead of iOS in the first place
    - floomk 3y ago
      You're confusing first party apps with third party apps. Also you're forgetting that this is a forum which is heavily biased to developers. I use Android because my phone isn't a fashion piece. Some of my users sadly use iOS. They want the software on the devices they purchased and own, but Apple is preventing us from delivering this to them unless we do exactly as Apple commands. So in the end everyone loses, except Apple.
      - yesimahuman 3y ago
        You’re being downvoted (clearly by multiple people) for having a valid opposing opinion in a subjective debate. Hate to see that kind of behavior on HN. Upvoted you to balance it out.
        riwsky 3y ago
        [flagged]
        fennecfoxy 3y ago
        This is why upvote/downvote systems are trash. Sure, they keep some actually bad opinions out, but they also keep correct but unpopular opinions out. The Sun revolves around the Earth! Downvote Galileo!
      - devilbunny 3y ago
        Let me push back against that a bit. My phone is not a fashion piece. AFAICT the blue bubbles will show up with an old 4S just as well as with a 14 Pro Max. I have an iPhone - which I got after many years with Android - because iMessage is an essential app for me. I live in the US, so my business partners do not have [choice of alternative messaging app] installed and they are not going to install it just for me. I'm a doctor working in a hospital that has two complete dead spots for cell reception, and whose IT department blocks WiFi calling. So I can't make phone calls on either service, and only on iOS can I get messages that are really, really important over the hospital WiFi. I could talk until I was blue in the face about how other methods are better. Or how Apple is being a gigantic bunch of assholes by not using something other than vanilla SMS if you're not an iMessage user. But it's sitting at about 30:1, and you can either go along and be aware of important things going on, or you can be left out. When business decisions are being made over those conversations, I'd be a fool to ignore it. I don't much like the iOS way, having gotten used to Android and LineageOS, but after my experience with the Nexus 6P that suffered the infamous "battery goes to shit overnight one day" problem that Google wouldn't fix, as well as being dropped from updates after two years, five years of security updates from model introduction sounded pretty nice.
- Brian_K_White 3y ago
  Yes. Of course. Apple do not enforce anything like a good user experience. They enforce a good Apple experience.
- V__ 3y ago
  Is the user experience on Mac bad? Macs let you install non-store apps, and somehow it works out fine.
- floomk 3y ago
  No one is forcing you to install anything you don't want to. The only thing I want is having the ability to install anything I want to. If you don't want to install those things the solution is simple: Don't. You don't need Apple to make that decision for you.
  - Dylan16807 3y ago
    While I wish I lived in a world of perfect competition, I also realize that I don't. System-wide rules against bad behavior are a lot more efficient. > You don't need Apple to make that decision for you. I also don't need an app making the decision of whether I need an account. Apple preserves that choice for users. And they're not making any decisions for the user about installing. Effectively zero apps will leave the store over this rule, so the user retains full choice over installing.
    - pessimizer 3y ago
      > System-wide rules against bad behavior are a lot more efficient. I don't want Apple making many system-wide rules on behavior, even on Apple's own systems (which they share with their users.) That being said, they're very right about this. Making the distinction between, on one side, apps that are useless without accounts (like banking apps) or apps that are made to help with already existing accounts, and on the other side apps that are just forcing accounts to capture and control the users, is a smart and thoughtful move.
ethanbond 3y ago
Or (1) is: it’s impossible to create codified rules that have no false negatives and no false positives and we’re smart enough not to act like it’s possible. You know, this is how almost every rule system on the planet operates. Ultimately there’s an arbiter whose job is to look at the totality of the case.
- Y_Y 3y ago
  This has a nice demonstration at the following link (which was on hn recently): https://novehiclesinthepark.com/ https://novehiclesinthepark.com/
- floomk 3y ago
  A better response would be: "Thank you for making us aware, we will revisit their evaluation or update the guidelines" (and then they would actually do so) This isn't what's happening though. If you're a big app you get to do whatever you want, and if you're small then you have to do as you're told.
  - ethanbond 3y ago
    That would not be a better solution because it would entail either “solid” rules that are actually always fluctuating and/or people having prior assessments overturned after the fact. As opposed to… humans working through a specific situation for a specific solution?
    - floomk 3y ago
      It would at least strive for equality, instead of letting the big boys do whatever the hell they want while punishing everyone else (and making it impossible to compete). There's also the ethical concern about how apple (or their reviewer) can bully you specifically which means there is no other way to delivery our software to your users, other than complying with a bully.
      - ethanbond 3y ago
Dylan16807 3y ago
> rules for thee but not for me "not for me" isn't what's happening in a comparison between two third party apps. > Companies should not have to bend over to apple's whims just to get their software in end user hands. Hopefully upcoming EU regulation will reign apple's overreach in a bit. Maybe in general, but I think a rule against requiring unnecessary accounts is a good rule. The EU should consider making that a regulation.
matthewfcarlson 3y ago
If you were protesting a speeding ticket, I suspect the defense of “the guy next to me was going even faster” wouldn’t go very well.

by floomk 3y ago

marvin 3y ago

You’re celebrating the possibility that EU regulation will remove Apple’s ability to enforce good user experience?

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
codeguro 3y ago
Apple doesn't get to dictate what constitutes a good user experience. Especially for me - that is my prerogative and mine alone. So yes, I will be extremely happy with it. This opens doors to all kinds of software that can compete with one another, and if I don't like it, I can simply uninstall it myself.
- extragood 3y ago
  Just one more bit of anecdotal evidence to support your view. Our app was rejected after review until we updated an external support doc to which the app linked. The doc contained system requirements for both iOS and Android devices, and we were specifically rejected for even having mentioned the competing operating system.
  - andrekandre 3y ago
    > The doc contained system requirements for both iOS and Android devices, and we were specifically rejected for even having mentioned the competing operating system. same, for us we just open all links in safari now, so if mentions of android show up its not "in the app"... an arguably worsened user experience for no good reason except to keep apple happy
- riwsky 3y ago
  If open doors did a better job of UX than apple, then you would have been using Android instead of iOS in the first place
  - floomk 3y ago
    You're confusing first party apps with third party apps. Also you're forgetting that this is a forum which is heavily biased to developers. I use Android because my phone isn't a fashion piece. Some of my users sadly use iOS. They want the software on the devices they purchased and own, but Apple is preventing us from delivering this to them unless we do exactly as Apple commands. So in the end everyone loses, except Apple.
    - yesimahuman 3y ago
      You’re being downvoted (clearly by multiple people) for having a valid opposing opinion in a subjective debate. Hate to see that kind of behavior on HN. Upvoted you to balance it out.
      - riwsky 3y ago
        [flagged]
      - fennecfoxy 3y ago
        This is why upvote/downvote systems are trash. Sure, they keep some actually bad opinions out, but they also keep correct but unpopular opinions out. The Sun revolves around the Earth! Downvote Galileo!
    - devilbunny 3y ago
      Let me push back against that a bit. My phone is not a fashion piece. AFAICT the blue bubbles will show up with an old 4S just as well as with a 14 Pro Max. I have an iPhone - which I got after many years with Android - because iMessage is an essential app for me. I live in the US, so my business partners do not have [choice of alternative messaging app] installed and they are not going to install it just for me. I'm a doctor working in a hospital that has two complete dead spots for cell reception, and whose IT department blocks WiFi calling. So I can't make phone calls on either service, and only on iOS can I get messages that are really, really important over the hospital WiFi. I could talk until I was blue in the face about how other methods are better. Or how Apple is being a gigantic bunch of assholes by not using something other than vanilla SMS if you're not an iMessage user. But it's sitting at about 30:1, and you can either go along and be aware of important things going on, or you can be left out. When business decisions are being made over those conversations, I'd be a fool to ignore it. I don't much like the iOS way, having gotten used to Android and LineageOS, but after my experience with the Nexus 6P that suffered the infamous "battery goes to shit overnight one day" problem that Google wouldn't fix, as well as being dropped from updates after two years, five years of security updates from model introduction sounded pretty nice.
Brian_K_White 3y ago
Yes. Of course. Apple do not enforce anything like a good user experience. They enforce a good Apple experience.
V__ 3y ago
Is the user experience on Mac bad? Macs let you install non-store apps, and somehow it works out fine.
floomk 3y ago
No one is forcing you to install anything you don't want to. The only thing I want is having the ability to install anything I want to. If you don't want to install those things the solution is simple: Don't. You don't need Apple to make that decision for you.
- Dylan16807 3y ago
  While I wish I lived in a world of perfect competition, I also realize that I don't. System-wide rules against bad behavior are a lot more efficient. > You don't need Apple to make that decision for you. I also don't need an app making the decision of whether I need an account. Apple preserves that choice for users. And they're not making any decisions for the user about installing. Effectively zero apps will leave the store over this rule, so the user retains full choice over installing.
  - pessimizer 3y ago
    > System-wide rules against bad behavior are a lot more efficient. I don't want Apple making many system-wide rules on behavior, even on Apple's own systems (which they share with their users.) That being said, they're very right about this. Making the distinction between, on one side, apps that are useless without accounts (like banking apps) or apps that are made to help with already existing accounts, and on the other side apps that are just forcing accounts to capture and control the users, is a smart and thoughtful move.

ethanbond 3y ago

Or (1) is: it’s impossible to create codified rules that have no false negatives and no false positives and we’re smart enough not to act like it’s possible. You know, this is how almost every rule system on the planet operates. Ultimately there’s an arbiter whose job is to look at the totality of the case.

Y_Y 3y ago
This has a nice demonstration at the following link (which was on hn recently): https://novehiclesinthepark.com/ https://novehiclesinthepark.com/
floomk 3y ago
A better response would be: "Thank you for making us aware, we will revisit their evaluation or update the guidelines" (and then they would actually do so) This isn't what's happening though. If you're a big app you get to do whatever you want, and if you're small then you have to do as you're told.
- ethanbond 3y ago
  That would not be a better solution because it would entail either “solid” rules that are actually always fluctuating and/or people having prior assessments overturned after the fact. As opposed to… humans working through a specific situation for a specific solution?
  - floomk 3y ago
    It would at least strive for equality, instead of letting the big boys do whatever the hell they want while punishing everyone else (and making it impossible to compete). There's also the ethical concern about how apple (or their reviewer) can bully you specifically which means there is no other way to delivery our software to your users, other than complying with a bully.
    - ethanbond 3y ago

Dylan16807 3y ago

> rules for thee but not for me "not for me" isn't what's happening in a comparison between two third party apps. > Companies should not have to bend over to apple's whims just to get their software in end user hands. Hopefully upcoming EU regulation will reign apple's overreach in a bit. Maybe in general, but I think a rule against requiring unnecessary accounts is a good rule. The EU should consider making that a regulation.

matthewfcarlson 3y ago

If you were protesting a speeding ticket, I suspect the defense of “the guy next to me was going even faster” wouldn’t go very well.