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Not trying to shit on anyone, but that screenshot reminds me of 1990s/early 2000's games. I'm sure there has been a ton of work that went into it, but having so
by genmud 3y ago
Not trying to shit on anyone, but that screenshot reminds me of 1990s/early 2000's games. I'm sure there has been a ton of work that went into it, but having some better textures or highlighting the usability would go a long way.
Just based on the screenshot, I am not sure that I would even bother to dig too deeply into the library.
- sacnoradhq 3y agoThe Utah teapot is never around when you need it.
- whalesalad 3y agoCounter Strike 1.6 energy
- nickpeterson 3y agoLet’s go go go!
- smoldesu 3y agoThe original Vulkan Demos were butt ugly too. Then 2 or 3 years later that super flashy DOOM remake went all-in on it and shut everyone up for a while.
- failuser 3y agoNow look at real 1990s/early 2000’s screenshots. You memory is deceiving you. This screenshot is far from current AAA games, but there is no way to render such a scene in a game made for 2000 hardware.
- dudeinjapan 3y agoPre-rendered their were. Vaguely reminds me of Myst or FF7 quality.
- pedrosorio 3y agoFor those reading who may not remember or have played the original FF7, here are links to pre-rendered backgrounds in FF7: https://www.jmeiners.com/pre-rendered-backgrounds/img/ff7.jpg https://www.jmeiners.com/pre-rendered-backgrounds/img/ff7.jp... and the image in the article about Meta's library: https://www.khronos.org/assets/uploads/blogs/2023-july-blog-meta-igl_2.jpg https://www.khronos.org/assets/uploads/blogs/2023-july-blog-...
- dudeinjapan 3y agoNot apples-to-apples because FF7 was NTSC resolution and heavily compressed. If FF7 were rendered at the same resolution, I think it would be comparable. Here's an FF7 AI upscale mod for reference: https://www.resetera.com/threads/a-full-high-res-ai-upscale-mod-of-final-fantasy-vii-came-out-today-and-for-the-first-time-ever-its-a-cinch-to-install.380883/ https://www.resetera.com/threads/a-full-high-res-ai-upscale-...
- failuser 3y agoPre-rendered? Sure. In-game? No. I think the art direction is half of the problem here. You can place lighting much better and the textures are lacking.
- n42 3y agothere is no "art direction" by Meta or the people working on this project; this is a reference scene for PBR pipelines. https://developer.nvidia.com/orca/amazon-lumberyard-bistro https://developer.nvidia.com/orca/amazon-lumberyard-bistro
- failuser 3y agoYou are right, the lighting makes the original scene look worse.
- carlosjobim 3y agoUnreal and Quake engines handled light and textures far better than that.
- belthesar 3y agoIt looks about on brand with the static renders used in a lot of Final Fantasy games of the PS1 era, albeit with higher pixel density of course, so I can see the resemblance. That said, this is definitely doing it in engine, so while I can see how the GP's memory palace built that memory, you're definitely accurate that no game from that era was doing graphics like this in-engine.
- CuriouslyC 3y agoHalf life 2 had better looking cityscapes, so early 2000s is accurate.
- easytiger 3y agoHalf Life 2: Lost coast from 2005 might be a fair comparison for this droll hypothetical https://youtu.be/j-Iykz0gb7Q https://youtu.be/j-Iykz0gb7Q (video uploaded 2006)
- ajkjk 3y agoI like it. It manages to be on the healthy side of the uncanny valley, so as to feel more like an actual inhabitable world instead of a disconcerting knock-off of the real world.
- n42 3y agothe screenshot could/should probably be better, but that doesn't mean the library is incapable of producing higher quality renders. I haven't dug in, but I am assuming this is basically Meta's WGPU. if so, these sorts of libraries are low level libraries abstracting different platforms that can be used to build high quality render pipelines on top of that can run anywhere. you could build an N64 quality rendering pipeline with little effort, or something rivaling AAA studios with a lot more knowledge and effort. I guess, to make a poor analogy, your comment is sort of like looking at a still frame of a poorly shot movie and complaining that the codec is shit.
- captainmuon 3y agoThe problem is, it implies that the library isn't capable of higher quality. I could imagine maybe because it is a lowest common denominator. Or because the Metaverse is not focussing on high end graphics, as their previous releases looked poor. Or maybe this is something like VML. Designed to be fairly barebones and people would use it for museum websites and educational tools but not for graphically intense games.
- n42 3y agoI always see this idea on HN that a library, website, framework should be marketing itself for mass appeal and adoption. this is made for people building rendering engines on top of. if you are the software engineer with the knowledge necessary to do that, the screenshot is probably not going to influence you, because you understand what this is for. if you aren't, why should they be marketing to you with eye candy?
- Animats 3y agoIt does seem to be Meta's answer to WGPU. The picture looks like they didn't have automatic tonemapping, the rendering equivalent of auto exposure control. So the picture is too dim. I brought it into a photo editor, saw that the top third of the intensity space was empty, used "Levels", and it looked much better. That's a standard glTF test scene, called "bistro". Here's the same scene, rendered with Rend3/WGPU.[1] Here's the source code for that example.[2] Rend3 is a level above WGPU; it deals with memory management and synchronization, so you just create objects, materials, transforms, and textures, then let the renderer do its thing. Rust handles the object management via RAII - delete the object, and it drops out of the scene. Looking at Meta's examples, there are too many platform-specific #ifdef lines. More than you need with WGPU. Probably because WGPU is usually used with something like Winit, which abstracts over different window systems. We'll have to wait for user reports about performance. Meta didn't show any video. Here's a test video of mine using Rend3/WGPU on a town scene comparable to the "bistro" demo.[3] This is a speed run, to test dynamic texture loading and unloading while rendering. The WGPU people are still working through lock conflicts in that area. The idea with Vulkan land is that you should be able to load content while rendering is in progress. For that to be useful, all the layers above Vulkan also have to have their locking problems hammered out. Most open source game engines don't do that yet. Unreal Engine and Unity do, which is why you pay for them for your AAA title. [1] https://raw.githubusercontent.com/BVE-Reborn/rend3/trunk/examples/scene-viewer/bistro.jpg https://raw.githubusercontent.com/BVE-Reborn/rend3/trunk/exa... [2] https://github.com/BVE-Reborn/rend3/blob/trunk/examples/scene-viewer/src/lib.rs https://github.com/BVE-Reborn/rend3/blob/trunk/examples/scen... [3] https://video.hardlimit.com/w/sFPkECUxRUSxbKXRkCmjJK https://video.hardlimit.com/w/sFPkECUxRUSxbKXRkCmjJK
- fsloth 3y ago"Just based on the screenshot, I am not sure that I would even bother to dig too deeply into the library." Adding any PBR materials as samples would have been the wrong choice, since those are not hardware or graphics api dependent, and are always for the implementor to implment by themselves. You don't want a graphics api to look nice at this abstraction level. You get access to device resources, shader API etc. Once you get triangles in, it's up to you to make it nice using the shaders you write - materials and GI model of your choice.
- Animats 3y ago> Adding any PBR materials as samples would have been the wrong choice, since those are not hardware or graphics api dependent, and are always for the implementor to implment by themselves. That "bistro" image is all PBR materials, represented in glTF. It's supposed to look the same for all standards-compliant glTF renderers, and it pretty much does. I posted the same scene in another renderer above. It's a brightly sunlit scene with no environment shaders, so it looks rather blah. glTF and Vulkan can do more than that, but this is all the test example asked for.
- fsloth 3y agoI don’t see the API claiming to be a standards compliant GLTF renderer, and I would be very confused if it did claim something like that as it’s feature. That said a ’render GLTF PBR’ sample would not be a bad thing to show the authors intent how to organize things etc.
- n42 3y agothe bistro: https://developer.nvidia.com/orca/amazon-lumberyard-bistro https://developer.nvidia.com/orca/amazon-lumberyard-bistro
- PartiallyTyped 3y agoIt's not texture, it's the lighting, it makes it feel very flat, especially when contrasting with RTX'd stuff which we all have in memory to some degree.
- PartiallyTyped 3y agoLmao, people are absolutely oblivious to the effects of lighting and it shows. Go watch nvidia’s demo of their lighting and scene modification/remastering tool.
- edflsafoiewq 3y agoWhether you like the textures has nothing to do with whether the graphics library is any good.
- andai 3y agoThis is a great example of a principle I heard from CoderFoundry: "People are visual buyers. If it looks good, people assume the code is good."
- IshKebab 3y agoSure but it has everything to do with whether I can easily tell that it's good.
- TillE 3y agoI can slap together a few high-res textures in SDL_Renderer, and maybe hack in some pretty shaders. Doesn't mean it's a good API.
- wetpaws 3y ago[dead]
- AtNightWeCode 3y agoYou are too kind. Mid to late 90s game. What is up with those shadows. I have written a 3D-engine with better image quality than this like 20 years ago. At least it is not a teapot.
- nomel 3y ago> I have written a 3D-engine with better image quality than this like 20 years ago. Well good news, it's not a 3d engine at all! It's a nice common API to cover all the existing graphics APIs.
- AtNightWeCode 3y agoA large part of creating a 3D-engine is to try figuring out what capabilities can be used with what performance across different hardware. If this is only an abstraction it won't solve anything.
- wlesieutre 3y agoThe textures are ok, but the lighting is super flat. People are used to games making at least some attempt at global illumination, whether it's prebaked light maps, or faking it with SSAO, or anything to not have surfaces be a totally consistent brightness across the whole thing.
- joeld42 3y agoYour rendering API is not going to implement GI for you, and having it in a sample app is kind of misleading, that's not really the point. It's probably a mistake to include that as a sample scene as it creates the impression that it's trying to be a game engine. A few material spheres and test meshes would probably be a better example.
- wlesieutre 3y agoAgreed, just pointing out why parent commenter gets the “1990s/early 2000's game” impression from the screenshot
- jayd16 3y agoFor better or worse, these graphics API shots are not the place to show cool shaders. SIGGRAPH papers are usually the same dry, boring test scenes. It's just the culture of it.