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Which is exactly why I always advocate for importing temporary labor from mexico. Letting the local tradespeople gain too much power is half the reason why buil

Which is exactly why I always advocate for importing temporary labor from mexico. Letting the local tradespeople gain too much power is half the reason why building is so difficult in america.

ftlio 3y ago
The unions aren’t that bad, but if there was any kind of accountability on budgets, they would be crushed or, more likely, just be better and faster. Between ZIRP and infinite debt, I can’t blame them for getting their cut. Also yes, I assume most of American buildings in the next 20-30 years will be built by foreign contractors using foreign labor.
thatguy0900 3y ago
God forbid anyone other than computer engineers get to feel like they're not just wage slaves.
- sclarisse 3y ago
  Mexicans in construction can feel like wage slaves every day in Mexico. Those temporarily in the US get to feel like they’re making bank, absolutely just cleaning up. Typical roofer in the US makes $50k (BLS figure). Not sure what he makes in Mexico but the median income in Mexico is about $20k. Why is the US based tradesperson superior to the Mexican? Why must we address his prosperity more than theirs? To “protect” the Mexican from making cash? And remember that when construction is expensive, people have to pay for it. Maybe if you already have saved enough for your house, that’s fine for you, but if not? It absolutely makes it harder for young people (not in tech) to afford homes. And on the national scale we have a massive backlog in housing and can expect it will take decades before housing gets better. US labor is neither morally superior nor economically sounder for the US or world economy. It is the specific laborer himself who benefits.
  - boomchinolo78 3y ago
    Mexican construction workers, make usually the minimum wage. About 10 USD per day
  - ericmay 3y ago
    > Why is the US based tradesperson superior to the Mexican? A better question to ask is why is the value of the Mexican’s labor so much higher once they step foot into the United States for the same exact work and exact same skill level. Another question you can ask is why can’t I as an American move to Norway and partake in their healthcare system and sovereign wealth fund? Or why can’t I move to Switzerland and work as a barista? Once you can answer the second question, you have your answer to the first.
    - ChainOfFools 3y ago
      It's not even close to the same amount of work, the construction worker in Mexico has to be far, far more resourceful than his American counterpart because things that we take for granted in the states like having on-site power, a constant supply of water, porta johns, working power tools, safety equipment and padding, nearby air conditioned restaurants and other public spaces to cool off in after the job or on lunch breaks, transportation to and from the site are largely absent in most Mexican construction circumstances. Things like sawbucks and and jigs for bending and shaping rebar are almost always just improvised on site. The concept of the US style planned development (fraccionamiento, very loosely the MX counterpart) where basic service infrastructure is laid down first, and construction happens afterward, is very much the exception there, and most work is done ad hoc using whatever tooling happens to be available in the nearest small town. Also Mexican construction is almost entirely cement and cinder block standards due to relatively little native timber, and those things are all hauled around the site manually with occasional wheelbarrow assistance. None of this tilt up, balloon frame stick built business we have here. Bottom line being that the typical Mexican construction laborer is going to be much more well-rounded, flexible, and industrious then the typical American construction worker, and as such is worth far more to an American crew, where these traits stand out, than to a Mexican crew where they are the norm.
    - sclarisse 3y ago
      The reason for the first is that the US has a much, much better environment for conducting business, compared to Mexico. This is on many levels, starting with education, continuing along to infrastructure, but also things like “low levels of official corruption” and “effective and consistent application of the rule of law,” especially least where business is concerned. For all our troubles (you needn’t raise them, I know) chances are that no one you know will ever be stopped by a cop claiming you were speeding and asking for a bribe; this would be business as usual and fairly unremarkable in Mexico. It would be good if Mexico could improve and avoid these problems. Until it does so, trapping the Mexican laborer in Mexico to earn his wage, when he could go elsewhere, is like making a farmer farm in the desert. It is not a natural-resource ownership allocation problem like you allude to with Norway.
  - mint2 3y ago
    I’m sure non-us programmers will welcome the relaxed visa requirements and companies will gladly pay them 1/2 the current market rates. Or are only construction jobs being opened up like that?
    - sclarisse 3y ago
      I sure hope so. I’m earning 10x what some of my European programmer friends are. For it to continue like this is unjustifiable.
  - jjav 3y ago
    > Typical roofer in the US makes $50k (BLS figure). Not sure what he makes in Mexico but the median income in Mexico is about $20k. If you were a roofer would you rather make 20K in Mexico us 50K in the US? I don't know, but I doubt it is clear cut answer. The insane US health care costs alone would eat up much of that if you're unlucky. I'd guess a young healthy single guy should take the 50K in the US but as soon as there is a family to support, 20K in Mexico may go farther.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - trimethylpurine 3y ago
      If you're under 50k in the US healthcare is literally free. What country do you live in? Have you ever visited healthcare.gov? Your get an extra $400/child/month at that income. If you're Mexican and you're weighing working in Mexico, you should absolutely go file and then go to the doctor and get your head checked.
      - jjav 3y ago
        I guess you just solved the US healthcare crisis with a single comment? Since US healthcare is literally free, there can't be huge numbers of medical bankrupcies (but there are) and there can't be insanely high levels of uninsured and underinsured people (but there are) and low-income families have nothing to worry about regarding access to care (but they do). Closer to the HN demographic, individuals who wish to start startups can freely do so without worrying how to get healtcare if they leave their FAANG job (but they can't). The other possibility might be that it's not that simple. When I was playing around with startup ideas, not employed by any large corporation, your so-called free healthcare was costing me well over $3K/month in the US (not including out of pocket expenses, of course).
        trimethylpurine 3y ago
        Average costs of healthcare in the US per person is roughly $560/mo. That's a little more than most European countries based on tax breakdown. Yes, in the US rich FAANG workers that decide to go startup are required to pay for poor bus drivers making less than $50k. That's called socialized healthcare. I don't see a crisis. I see the news pedaling whatever garbage they need to slander the other party, including painting crazy pictures about the US "crisis" where lifespans are strikingly similar to everywhere else. Next time fill out your forms on time. You get Cobra when you leave and if you really are under $50k the following year, then yes it's really free. Unless you're too lazy to fill out your forms, or your startup took off, you are just fine.
  - LegitShady 3y ago
    Mexicans in computer engineering/science feel like wage slaves every day in mexico. those temporarily in the US get to feel like they're making bank, absolutely cleaning up. Typical computer scientist/programming in the US makes $93,000. Not sure what he makes in mexico but the median income in mexico is about $20k. Why is the US based computer scientist superior to the mexican? Why must we address his prosperity more than theirs? To "protect" the programmer from making cash? And remember, development is expensive, people have to pay for it. Maybe if you already have enough saved for your application, that's fine for you, but if not? It absolutely makes it harder for young people to create businesses. And on the national scale we can use more mexican app developers. US developers are neither morally superior nor economically sounder for the US or world economy. It is the specific laborer themselves who benefits. PS Your argument is that the country you live in shouldn't value the citizens of that country over some other country's citizens - its basically the end of the social contract and of society in general. Its a bad idea but I guess if it saves you $15/h on a construction worker its now moral in your eyes? Absolute drivel.
hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
Can't tell if sarcasm or not... Yeah, it's those local tradespeople living in their mansions and driving Lambos that is the real problem with building costs, so of course we should import desperate people in unstable situations to compete against them.
- quantified 3y ago
  It's been working so well for meatpacking and agriculture...
  - KRAKRISMOTT 3y ago
    It works perfectly, government subsidies and cheap foreign labor creates happy american farmers. Housing and infrastructure are critical to the country, just like food. The only issue is the legal limbo of selective immigration, it would be less cruel to issue visas quicker for temporary workers with most resident benefits waived than the current under-the-table dealings with illegal and undocumented migrants.
    - quantified 3y ago
      Given that enforcing the law drives the labor away, and the conditions for the workers suck, the only way it's working is to find that making things suck for people is somehow good.
boomchinolo78 3y ago
There are three components that get paid in business. Labor, capital and rent. Rent is low in construction as it is not tied to a particular location; you store the machines and tools anywhere. Increasing the supply of labor will just ensure that the providers of capital get to keep more of the profit.
thebradbain 3y ago
Which is exactly why I always advocate for outsourcing engineering talent overseas. Letting the Silicon Valley software engineers gain too much power is half the reason why keeping a product from being cancelled is so difficult at Google. See, throwing a lot of nonsequiters together does not make a convincing argument that you know anything about what you’re talking about!
rurp 3y ago
Oh yes, won't somebody please look out for the poor put upon business owners. They just can't catch a break in modern America.
red-iron-pine 3y ago
Most of the houses built from the late 80s through the 2000s housing bubble were built by foreign labor. Ditto for most of the kitchen labor in big cities. Anthony Bourdain wrote about it extensively in the book that made him famous. Both are the reason the middle class was able to eke it out for so long. Now the hacks aren't working and the money printer kept going brrrrrrrrrrrr and the average person can't afford jack.

Which is exactly why I always advocate for importing temporary labor from mexico. Letting the local tradespeople gain too much power is half the reason why building is so difficult in america.

ftlio 3y ago

The unions aren’t that bad, but if there was any kind of accountability on budgets, they would be crushed or, more likely, just be better and faster. Between ZIRP and infinite debt, I can’t blame them for getting their cut. Also yes, I assume most of American buildings in the next 20-30 years will be built by foreign contractors using foreign labor.

thatguy0900 3y ago

God forbid anyone other than computer engineers get to feel like they're not just wage slaves.

sclarisse 3y ago
Mexicans in construction can feel like wage slaves every day in Mexico. Those temporarily in the US get to feel like they’re making bank, absolutely just cleaning up. Typical roofer in the US makes $50k (BLS figure). Not sure what he makes in Mexico but the median income in Mexico is about $20k. Why is the US based tradesperson superior to the Mexican? Why must we address his prosperity more than theirs? To “protect” the Mexican from making cash? And remember that when construction is expensive, people have to pay for it. Maybe if you already have saved enough for your house, that’s fine for you, but if not? It absolutely makes it harder for young people (not in tech) to afford homes. And on the national scale we have a massive backlog in housing and can expect it will take decades before housing gets better. US labor is neither morally superior nor economically sounder for the US or world economy. It is the specific laborer himself who benefits.
- boomchinolo78 3y ago
  Mexican construction workers, make usually the minimum wage. About 10 USD per day
- ericmay 3y ago
  > Why is the US based tradesperson superior to the Mexican? A better question to ask is why is the value of the Mexican’s labor so much higher once they step foot into the United States for the same exact work and exact same skill level. Another question you can ask is why can’t I as an American move to Norway and partake in their healthcare system and sovereign wealth fund? Or why can’t I move to Switzerland and work as a barista? Once you can answer the second question, you have your answer to the first.
  - ChainOfFools 3y ago
    It's not even close to the same amount of work, the construction worker in Mexico has to be far, far more resourceful than his American counterpart because things that we take for granted in the states like having on-site power, a constant supply of water, porta johns, working power tools, safety equipment and padding, nearby air conditioned restaurants and other public spaces to cool off in after the job or on lunch breaks, transportation to and from the site are largely absent in most Mexican construction circumstances. Things like sawbucks and and jigs for bending and shaping rebar are almost always just improvised on site. The concept of the US style planned development (fraccionamiento, very loosely the MX counterpart) where basic service infrastructure is laid down first, and construction happens afterward, is very much the exception there, and most work is done ad hoc using whatever tooling happens to be available in the nearest small town. Also Mexican construction is almost entirely cement and cinder block standards due to relatively little native timber, and those things are all hauled around the site manually with occasional wheelbarrow assistance. None of this tilt up, balloon frame stick built business we have here. Bottom line being that the typical Mexican construction laborer is going to be much more well-rounded, flexible, and industrious then the typical American construction worker, and as such is worth far more to an American crew, where these traits stand out, than to a Mexican crew where they are the norm.
  - sclarisse 3y ago
    The reason for the first is that the US has a much, much better environment for conducting business, compared to Mexico. This is on many levels, starting with education, continuing along to infrastructure, but also things like “low levels of official corruption” and “effective and consistent application of the rule of law,” especially least where business is concerned. For all our troubles (you needn’t raise them, I know) chances are that no one you know will ever be stopped by a cop claiming you were speeding and asking for a bribe; this would be business as usual and fairly unremarkable in Mexico. It would be good if Mexico could improve and avoid these problems. Until it does so, trapping the Mexican laborer in Mexico to earn his wage, when he could go elsewhere, is like making a farmer farm in the desert. It is not a natural-resource ownership allocation problem like you allude to with Norway.
- mint2 3y ago
  I’m sure non-us programmers will welcome the relaxed visa requirements and companies will gladly pay them 1/2 the current market rates. Or are only construction jobs being opened up like that?
  - sclarisse 3y ago
    I sure hope so. I’m earning 10x what some of my European programmer friends are. For it to continue like this is unjustifiable.
- jjav 3y ago
  > Typical roofer in the US makes $50k (BLS figure). Not sure what he makes in Mexico but the median income in Mexico is about $20k. If you were a roofer would you rather make 20K in Mexico us 50K in the US? I don't know, but I doubt it is clear cut answer. The insane US health care costs alone would eat up much of that if you're unlucky. I'd guess a young healthy single guy should take the 50K in the US but as soon as there is a family to support, 20K in Mexico may go farther.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - trimethylpurine 3y ago
    If you're under 50k in the US healthcare is literally free. What country do you live in? Have you ever visited healthcare.gov? Your get an extra $400/child/month at that income. If you're Mexican and you're weighing working in Mexico, you should absolutely go file and then go to the doctor and get your head checked.
    - jjav 3y ago
      I guess you just solved the US healthcare crisis with a single comment? Since US healthcare is literally free, there can't be huge numbers of medical bankrupcies (but there are) and there can't be insanely high levels of uninsured and underinsured people (but there are) and low-income families have nothing to worry about regarding access to care (but they do). Closer to the HN demographic, individuals who wish to start startups can freely do so without worrying how to get healtcare if they leave their FAANG job (but they can't). The other possibility might be that it's not that simple. When I was playing around with startup ideas, not employed by any large corporation, your so-called free healthcare was costing me well over $3K/month in the US (not including out of pocket expenses, of course).
      - trimethylpurine 3y ago
        Average costs of healthcare in the US per person is roughly $560/mo. That's a little more than most European countries based on tax breakdown. Yes, in the US rich FAANG workers that decide to go startup are required to pay for poor bus drivers making less than $50k. That's called socialized healthcare. I don't see a crisis. I see the news pedaling whatever garbage they need to slander the other party, including painting crazy pictures about the US "crisis" where lifespans are strikingly similar to everywhere else. Next time fill out your forms on time. You get Cobra when you leave and if you really are under $50k the following year, then yes it's really free. Unless you're too lazy to fill out your forms, or your startup took off, you are just fine.
- LegitShady 3y ago
  Mexicans in computer engineering/science feel like wage slaves every day in mexico. those temporarily in the US get to feel like they're making bank, absolutely cleaning up. Typical computer scientist/programming in the US makes $93,000. Not sure what he makes in mexico but the median income in mexico is about $20k. Why is the US based computer scientist superior to the mexican? Why must we address his prosperity more than theirs? To "protect" the programmer from making cash? And remember, development is expensive, people have to pay for it. Maybe if you already have enough saved for your application, that's fine for you, but if not? It absolutely makes it harder for young people to create businesses. And on the national scale we can use more mexican app developers. US developers are neither morally superior nor economically sounder for the US or world economy. It is the specific laborer themselves who benefits. PS Your argument is that the country you live in shouldn't value the citizens of that country over some other country's citizens - its basically the end of the social contract and of society in general. Its a bad idea but I guess if it saves you $15/h on a construction worker its now moral in your eyes? Absolute drivel.

hn_throwaway_99 3y ago

Can't tell if sarcasm or not... Yeah, it's those local tradespeople living in their mansions and driving Lambos that is the real problem with building costs, so of course we should import desperate people in unstable situations to compete against them.

quantified 3y ago
It's been working so well for meatpacking and agriculture...
- KRAKRISMOTT 3y ago
  It works perfectly, government subsidies and cheap foreign labor creates happy american farmers. Housing and infrastructure are critical to the country, just like food. The only issue is the legal limbo of selective immigration, it would be less cruel to issue visas quicker for temporary workers with most resident benefits waived than the current under-the-table dealings with illegal and undocumented migrants.
  - quantified 3y ago
    Given that enforcing the law drives the labor away, and the conditions for the workers suck, the only way it's working is to find that making things suck for people is somehow good.

boomchinolo78 3y ago

There are three components that get paid in business. Labor, capital and rent. Rent is low in construction as it is not tied to a particular location; you store the machines and tools anywhere. Increasing the supply of labor will just ensure that the providers of capital get to keep more of the profit.

thebradbain 3y ago

Which is exactly why I always advocate for outsourcing engineering talent overseas. Letting the Silicon Valley software engineers gain too much power is half the reason why keeping a product from being cancelled is so difficult at Google. See, throwing a lot of nonsequiters together does not make a convincing argument that you know anything about what you’re talking about!

rurp 3y ago

Oh yes, won't somebody please look out for the poor put upon business owners. They just can't catch a break in modern America.

red-iron-pine 3y ago

Most of the houses built from the late 80s through the 2000s housing bubble were built by foreign labor. Ditto for most of the kitchen labor in big cities. Anthony Bourdain wrote about it extensively in the book that made him famous. Both are the reason the middle class was able to eke it out for so long. Now the hacks aren't working and the money printer kept going brrrrrrrrrrrr and the average person can't afford jack.