5 ms·

I wonder what % of train "movements" are electrified; length of electrified rail is one thing, but I suspect the majority of that remaining 36% of non-electrifi

by cjrp 3y ago

I wonder what % of train "movements" are electrified; length of electrified rail is one thing, but I suspect the majority of that remaining 36% of non-electrified rail actually account for a small percentage of movements.

bluGill 3y ago
Hard to say. It has been known for years that for very busy rail lines electric is cheaper than diesel, and the American main lines are more than busy enough to cross the threshold. However the long tail of not busy enough rail combined with the logistics of getting diesel to those less busy rail when they are used mean overall diesel is cheaper. (though I suspect the rails are not running honest numbers here, but that is a different debate).
- crote 3y ago
  The most ironic part is that the vast majority of diesel trains are already diesel-electric and could trivially make use of overhead wires. But instead the rail companies have actually been tearing down existing electrification. There were 3100 miles of electrified rails in the 1930s, but now it is down to a tiny fraction of that.
rjmunro 3y ago
Yes and no. I know nothing about Norway's rail system, but it was the case in the UK that a lot of electrified rail was only partially used because services that ran on both electrified and non-electrified tracks needed to be powered by diesel for the entire journey. This has got a lot better more recently as we now have hybrid trains that can run on electricity whenever there are overhead lines, and diesel where there aren't. There is talk of replacing diesel engines with batteries so that they can run on electric (and use regenerative braking) even where there are no overhead lines, charging the batteries from the overhead line when available. https://anonw.com/2023/06/27/what-will-be-the-range-of-a-hitachi-class-800-battery-train/ https://anonw.com/2023/06/27/what-will-be-the-range-of-a-hit... There are usually multiple diesel generators on each train, so it's likely that the batteries will only replace some of them - there would still be some diesel power available for emergencies.
- theluketaylor 3y ago
  The most expensive part of electrifying existing track is bridges and tunnels since they often have to be rebuilt to have enough clearance (especially in places like the UK where bridges are old and therefore very low. If all the trains have enough battery to move a short distance without the overhead wires suddenly the electrification project becomes pretty simple and non-disruptive and costs are really reasonable.
  - cjrp 3y ago
    Is the clearance needed even if they're powered by the third rail? Or only for overhead pickup
    - theluketaylor 3y ago
      Overhead only. But 3rd rail for long distances is really dangerous. Subways and metros use it since they typically strongly control access to the tracks and tunnels, but that really isn't possible when crossing whole countries.
      - wkat4242 3y ago
        Still, you could use third rail in tunnels which can be tightly controlled, and overhead elsewhere. Dual trains exist, many metros have it too.
        rjmunro 3y ago
        In the UK, 3rd rail is typically 600V (DC), where as overhead is 25kV (AC). So you need 40× the current to get the same power. For high powered intercity trains that run at around 1MW of power, it increases transmission losses substantially.
magicalhippo 3y ago
Most of the non-electrified rail is in the northern parts of Norway. From what I can find around 10% of the fleet[1] operate on those non-electrified rails. However it includes Nordlandsbanen[2] which is our longest rail line at 729km. Seems they're moving towards partially electrifying, and using battery or hydrogen for the remaining part. They've already started to acquire bimodal trains[3] for the transition. [1]: https://www.tu.no/artikler/hydrogen-som-drivstoff-for-godstog-pa-nordlandsbanen/507096 https://www.tu.no/artikler/hydrogen-som-drivstoff-for-godsto... [2]: https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordlandsbanen https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordlandsbanen [3]: https://www.norsketog.no/nyheter/2020/testkjorer-tronderbanens-nye-tog https://www.norsketog.no/nyheter/2020/testkjorer-tronderbane...
timeon 3y ago
There are also Solør Line and Rørøs Line. Solør Line transports mostly wood. Rørøs Line is also used for wood and it is alternative route to Trondheim from Oslo (technically from Hamar). But I think that there was/is plan to electrify them as well.

by cjrp 3y ago

bluGill 3y ago

Hard to say. It has been known for years that for very busy rail lines electric is cheaper than diesel, and the American main lines are more than busy enough to cross the threshold. However the long tail of not busy enough rail combined with the logistics of getting diesel to those less busy rail when they are used mean overall diesel is cheaper. (though I suspect the rails are not running honest numbers here, but that is a different debate).

crote 3y ago
The most ironic part is that the vast majority of diesel trains are already diesel-electric and could trivially make use of overhead wires. But instead the rail companies have actually been tearing down existing electrification. There were 3100 miles of electrified rails in the 1930s, but now it is down to a tiny fraction of that.

rjmunro 3y ago

Yes and no. I know nothing about Norway's rail system, but it was the case in the UK that a lot of electrified rail was only partially used because services that ran on both electrified and non-electrified tracks needed to be powered by diesel for the entire journey. This has got a lot better more recently as we now have hybrid trains that can run on electricity whenever there are overhead lines, and diesel where there aren't. There is talk of replacing diesel engines with batteries so that they can run on electric (and use regenerative braking) even where there are no overhead lines, charging the batteries from the overhead line when available. https://anonw.com/2023/06/27/what-will-be-the-range-of-a-hitachi-class-800-battery-train/ https://anonw.com/2023/06/27/what-will-be-the-range-of-a-hit... There are usually multiple diesel generators on each train, so it's likely that the batteries will only replace some of them - there would still be some diesel power available for emergencies.

theluketaylor 3y ago
The most expensive part of electrifying existing track is bridges and tunnels since they often have to be rebuilt to have enough clearance (especially in places like the UK where bridges are old and therefore very low. If all the trains have enough battery to move a short distance without the overhead wires suddenly the electrification project becomes pretty simple and non-disruptive and costs are really reasonable.
- cjrp 3y ago
  Is the clearance needed even if they're powered by the third rail? Or only for overhead pickup
  - theluketaylor 3y ago
    Overhead only. But 3rd rail for long distances is really dangerous. Subways and metros use it since they typically strongly control access to the tracks and tunnels, but that really isn't possible when crossing whole countries.
    - wkat4242 3y ago
      Still, you could use third rail in tunnels which can be tightly controlled, and overhead elsewhere. Dual trains exist, many metros have it too.
      - rjmunro 3y ago
        In the UK, 3rd rail is typically 600V (DC), where as overhead is 25kV (AC). So you need 40× the current to get the same power. For high powered intercity trains that run at around 1MW of power, it increases transmission losses substantially.

magicalhippo 3y ago

Most of the non-electrified rail is in the northern parts of Norway. From what I can find around 10% of the fleet[1] operate on those non-electrified rails. However it includes Nordlandsbanen[2] which is our longest rail line at 729km. Seems they're moving towards partially electrifying, and using battery or hydrogen for the remaining part. They've already started to acquire bimodal trains[3] for the transition. [1]: https://www.tu.no/artikler/hydrogen-som-drivstoff-for-godstog-pa-nordlandsbanen/507096 https://www.tu.no/artikler/hydrogen-som-drivstoff-for-godsto... [2]: https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordlandsbanen https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordlandsbanen [3]: https://www.norsketog.no/nyheter/2020/testkjorer-tronderbanens-nye-tog https://www.norsketog.no/nyheter/2020/testkjorer-tronderbane...

timeon 3y ago

There are also Solør Line and Rørøs Line. Solør Line transports mostly wood. Rørøs Line is also used for wood and it is alternative route to Trondheim from Oslo (technically from Hamar). But I think that there was/is plan to electrify them as well.