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>Dont put effort just for the sake of grades, they are worthless. They aren't worthless. Grades make it easier and cheaper for you to go to college. Good grad

>Dont put effort just for the sake of grades, they are worthless. They aren't worthless. Grades make it easier and cheaper for you to go to college. Good grades in college make it far, far easier to get jobs and can get you in the door to significantly better and higher paying jobs or grad school. So not worthless, just not the be all and end all.

hardware2win 3y ago
In my country higher edu institutions look at final exam scores, not grades. Grades are terrible due to bias, difficulty when it comes to comparing them and lack of transparency. At best they show effort (or "caring" parents) >Good grades in college make it far, far easier to get jobs and can get you in the door to significantly better and higher Thats why there should be fair and transparent exam after college :) This way everything is up to your score, not school name or cool prof who inflates grades
- ameister14 3y ago
  I don't really disagree with you; I was just pointing out the way it currently is, at least in the US.
- compiler-guy 3y ago
  Tests have their own sets of problems too. A single, high stakes, high pressure test to determine everything is just as absurd as grades, and tends to bias for those who have time and money to prep. I prefer wholistic evaluations. You are more than both your test scores and your grades and your school and your demographics. But if you put them all together one can get a decent picture.
  - hardware2win 3y ago
    While tests arent perfect, then they are at least fair, transparent and almost bias free unlike other methods. >tends to bias for those who have time and money to prep. Hmm? So you have time to do various stuff for grades, but dont have time to prepare for exam? It feels like copy pasted argument from discussions about exams in general, not when comparing them with grades like we do. >But if you put them all together one can get a decent picture. Concrete things, please. How would you evaluate person.
    - compiler-guy 3y ago
      In general, exams measure peak performance. Grades measure sustained performance. The literature is quite extensive that although standardized tests have substantial predictive power as to college performance, adding grades and other factors is substantially better. Eg https://news.uchicago.edu/story/test-scores-dont-stack-gpas-predicting-college-success https://news.uchicago.edu/story/test-scores-dont-stack-gpas-... and https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6963451/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6963451/ You assert without evidence that testing is unbiased. This is widely disputed. You will find some literature taking the opposite view, of course, but given that the debate rages among professional researchers, a plain assertion doesnt carry all that much weight. http://m.portlandobserver.com/news/2020/jan/14/college-admission-tests-biased-and-unhelpful/ http://m.portlandobserver.com/news/2020/jan/14/college-admis... https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED537716.pdf https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED537716.pdf Cheating on college entrance exams is rampant in China and other countries. This is another downside of high stakes exams. As far as a wholistic view, I think including attributes such as grit, leadership, and talent across many areas such as writing, the various arts and many other fields is useful.
      - hardware2win 3y ago
        How can you introduce bias in ABCD e.g math tests? >think including attributes such as grit, leadership, and talent across many areas such as writing, the various arts and many other fields is useful. How do you measure leadership? And prevent bias/preference from the examiner?
        compiler-guy 3y ago
        I suggest doing some research. There are plenty of published papers on the topic.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  The USA used to be a hybrid, but many schools are getting rid of looking at (ACT/SAT)test scores and that leaves them with just grades.
onlyrealcuzzo 3y ago
It is almost certainly not worth your time to try to be in the top 10 in your class. Nearly everyone is much better off doing other things with their time than studying to try to get an elite college for a good deal. There's little evidence that where you go to school matters. If you take Albert Einstein and you put him in a community college, he's still going to be Albert Einstein, and you're still going to just be you at Harvard.
- ameister14 3y ago
  >There's little evidence that where you go to school matters. That's not quite true. There is little evidence that if you go to Penn instead of Penn State you have different results, but there are caveats. First, you have to be able to get into both. [edit]The studies control for selection, so the ones showing no increase in wages are studying the same cohort at Penn and Penn State, but there are more students at Penn State that are not members of that cohort than there are students at Penn. Second, you need to go to a college with enough people and have access to a similar cohort of intelligent, hard-working and advantaged students. >If you take Albert Einstein and you put him in a community college, he's still going to be Albert Einstein, and you're still going to just be you at Harvard. Maybe so - most people aren't Albert Einstein, though, and that Harvard degree gets you a look at places where the community college degree does not.
  - ModernMech 3y ago
    Regarding Penn vs. Penn State, the valedictorian at my PA high school got into both. He ended up going to the Penn State honors school, and he's doing great today. Salutatorian (same GPA actually but one fewer AP class broke the tie) went to Penn and he's also doing great. So I guess that's to say.... shrug. Honestly I'd live in State College over Philly any day of the week.
  - treis 3y ago
    Penn's not really the level of school that will be that much better over a flagship state school. Harvard, Yale, Stanford, MIT, Princeton, and maybe a few more are that level.
gwbas1c 3y ago
I think you've missed the point about TFA's discussion on grades. Here's a link so you can go back: https://skunkledger.substack.com/i/125171481/b-dealing-with-your-school-and-your-parents https://skunkledger.substack.com/i/125171481/b-dealing-with-... Basically, high grades aren't the end-all, be-all of school. They aren't a way of defining ones' worth. The analogy of treating school like a job really applies here. TFA also points out the risk of bad grades. I should point out that TFA's advice works for conventional high school, but less for prep school. I had so much homework in prep school that it was nearly impossible for me to pursue the kinds of things TFA advocates for. Had I known better, I would have insisted on going to public school. (But all my friends were going to prep school; another mistake from TFA that I fell into.)
- ameister14 3y ago
  Yes - this is why I said: >So not worthless, just not the be all and end all. It was a reply to someone who missed the point about the discussion on grades.
ac29 3y ago
> Grades make it easier and cheaper for you to go to college. How do they make it cheaper to go to college? Merit scholarships that are based mostly or entirely on grades are relatively rare and extremely competitive. And the cheapest colleges are often the least selective ones (like community college or state schools).
- Konnstann 3y ago
  In my experience state schools that weren't very selective were also the ones offering scholarships for students with high grades/test scores etc. Many of my friends went to the school they did instead of a more prestigious one due to being offered more tuition assistance/scholarships for their high school achievements. Personally I was able to skip a full semester and change of classes thanks to taking every AP course I could during high school as well
- ameister14 3y ago
  As an example, Georgia offers scholarships for all students above certain GPA cutoffs. The Hope and Zell Miller programs, specifically, pay for many students to attend schools like UGA and Georgia Tech. Many programs and scholarships have grade cutoffs or maintenance requirements and while scholarships aren't entirely based on grades the grades are often a prerequisite.

hardware2win 3y ago

In my country higher edu institutions look at final exam scores, not grades. Grades are terrible due to bias, difficulty when it comes to comparing them and lack of transparency. At best they show effort (or "caring" parents) >Good grades in college make it far, far easier to get jobs and can get you in the door to significantly better and higher Thats why there should be fair and transparent exam after college :) This way everything is up to your score, not school name or cool prof who inflates grades

ameister14 3y ago
I don't really disagree with you; I was just pointing out the way it currently is, at least in the US.
compiler-guy 3y ago
Tests have their own sets of problems too. A single, high stakes, high pressure test to determine everything is just as absurd as grades, and tends to bias for those who have time and money to prep. I prefer wholistic evaluations. You are more than both your test scores and your grades and your school and your demographics. But if you put them all together one can get a decent picture.
- hardware2win 3y ago
  While tests arent perfect, then they are at least fair, transparent and almost bias free unlike other methods. >tends to bias for those who have time and money to prep. Hmm? So you have time to do various stuff for grades, but dont have time to prepare for exam? It feels like copy pasted argument from discussions about exams in general, not when comparing them with grades like we do. >But if you put them all together one can get a decent picture. Concrete things, please. How would you evaluate person.
  - compiler-guy 3y ago
    In general, exams measure peak performance. Grades measure sustained performance. The literature is quite extensive that although standardized tests have substantial predictive power as to college performance, adding grades and other factors is substantially better. Eg https://news.uchicago.edu/story/test-scores-dont-stack-gpas-predicting-college-success https://news.uchicago.edu/story/test-scores-dont-stack-gpas-... and https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6963451/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6963451/ You assert without evidence that testing is unbiased. This is widely disputed. You will find some literature taking the opposite view, of course, but given that the debate rages among professional researchers, a plain assertion doesnt carry all that much weight. http://m.portlandobserver.com/news/2020/jan/14/college-admission-tests-biased-and-unhelpful/ http://m.portlandobserver.com/news/2020/jan/14/college-admis... https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED537716.pdf https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED537716.pdf Cheating on college entrance exams is rampant in China and other countries. This is another downside of high stakes exams. As far as a wholistic view, I think including attributes such as grit, leadership, and talent across many areas such as writing, the various arts and many other fields is useful.
    - hardware2win 3y ago
      How can you introduce bias in ABCD e.g math tests? >think including attributes such as grit, leadership, and talent across many areas such as writing, the various arts and many other fields is useful. How do you measure leadership? And prevent bias/preference from the examiner?
      - compiler-guy 3y ago
        I suggest doing some research. There are plenty of published papers on the topic.
seanmcdirmid 3y ago
The USA used to be a hybrid, but many schools are getting rid of looking at (ACT/SAT)test scores and that leaves them with just grades.

onlyrealcuzzo 3y ago

It is almost certainly not worth your time to try to be in the top 10 in your class. Nearly everyone is much better off doing other things with their time than studying to try to get an elite college for a good deal. There's little evidence that where you go to school matters. If you take Albert Einstein and you put him in a community college, he's still going to be Albert Einstein, and you're still going to just be you at Harvard.

ameister14 3y ago
>There's little evidence that where you go to school matters. That's not quite true. There is little evidence that if you go to Penn instead of Penn State you have different results, but there are caveats. First, you have to be able to get into both. [edit]The studies control for selection, so the ones showing no increase in wages are studying the same cohort at Penn and Penn State, but there are more students at Penn State that are not members of that cohort than there are students at Penn. Second, you need to go to a college with enough people and have access to a similar cohort of intelligent, hard-working and advantaged students. >If you take Albert Einstein and you put him in a community college, he's still going to be Albert Einstein, and you're still going to just be you at Harvard. Maybe so - most people aren't Albert Einstein, though, and that Harvard degree gets you a look at places where the community college degree does not.
- ModernMech 3y ago
  Regarding Penn vs. Penn State, the valedictorian at my PA high school got into both. He ended up going to the Penn State honors school, and he's doing great today. Salutatorian (same GPA actually but one fewer AP class broke the tie) went to Penn and he's also doing great. So I guess that's to say.... shrug. Honestly I'd live in State College over Philly any day of the week.
- treis 3y ago
  Penn's not really the level of school that will be that much better over a flagship state school. Harvard, Yale, Stanford, MIT, Princeton, and maybe a few more are that level.

gwbas1c 3y ago

I think you've missed the point about TFA's discussion on grades. Here's a link so you can go back: https://skunkledger.substack.com/i/125171481/b-dealing-with-your-school-and-your-parents https://skunkledger.substack.com/i/125171481/b-dealing-with-... Basically, high grades aren't the end-all, be-all of school. They aren't a way of defining ones' worth. The analogy of treating school like a job really applies here. TFA also points out the risk of bad grades. I should point out that TFA's advice works for conventional high school, but less for prep school. I had so much homework in prep school that it was nearly impossible for me to pursue the kinds of things TFA advocates for. Had I known better, I would have insisted on going to public school. (But all my friends were going to prep school; another mistake from TFA that I fell into.)

ameister14 3y ago
Yes - this is why I said: >So not worthless, just not the be all and end all. It was a reply to someone who missed the point about the discussion on grades.

ac29 3y ago

> Grades make it easier and cheaper for you to go to college. How do they make it cheaper to go to college? Merit scholarships that are based mostly or entirely on grades are relatively rare and extremely competitive. And the cheapest colleges are often the least selective ones (like community college or state schools).

Konnstann 3y ago
In my experience state schools that weren't very selective were also the ones offering scholarships for students with high grades/test scores etc. Many of my friends went to the school they did instead of a more prestigious one due to being offered more tuition assistance/scholarships for their high school achievements. Personally I was able to skip a full semester and change of classes thanks to taking every AP course I could during high school as well
ameister14 3y ago
As an example, Georgia offers scholarships for all students above certain GPA cutoffs. The Hope and Zell Miller programs, specifically, pay for many students to attend schools like UGA and Georgia Tech. Many programs and scholarships have grade cutoffs or maintenance requirements and while scholarships aren't entirely based on grades the grades are often a prerequisite.