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It was a disaster at Wisconsin. Union favored the 8th year humanities students at the expense of the 1 and 2 year STEM students, and traded cash for benefits th

It was a disaster at Wisconsin. Union favored the 8th year humanities students at the expense of the 1 and 2 year STEM students, and traded cash for benefits that really only affected people with families. Stipends were the lowest in the country among major research universities, and the union refused to let wages rise for in-demand TAs, so a bunch of them went off and got private sector jobs instead, limiting the size of the undergrad population. Scott Walker killed it, and those problems haven't come back.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
bigbillheck 3y ago
> Union favored the 8th year humanities students at the expense of the 1 and 2 year STEM students Having been a one-time 1st or 2nd year STEM student, I think this is the proper decision.
- CraigRo 3y ago
  Caused huge attrition of the 1st and 2nd year stem students (i.e. quit with a masters). The union was dominated by humanities students, and they fought for what they wanted, not what the overall membership wanted. Very few STEM folks had any interest in being part of the union, but because so many voted with their feet, it was hopeless to set up a decertifiying petition.
  - renewiltord 3y ago
    This is an interesting story. I don't understand why it was flagkilled. Is it obviously false or something?
    - jimbob45 3y ago
      It's presidential election season in the US. People are going to fight hard to bury what the other side says and raise up what their own side is saying. Here's some free advice: leave until January 2025 and spend your newly free time learning a language or growing a garden.
    - lapcat 3y ago
      > Is it obviously false or something? Yes. Doesn't "a bunch of them went off and got private sector jobs instead, limiting the size of the undergrad population" sound extremely implausible to you? As if graduate students can control enrollment. The comment sounds like a political hit piece, with no evidence provided. And Scott Walker was a major union buster who spurred massive protests at the Wisconsin State Capitol in 2011 and a recall election (which Walker unfortunately won). The University of Wisconsin Teaching Assistants Association is one of the oldest student unions in the nation. It's hardly a "disaster".
      - shagie 3y ago
        A number of STEM majors graduating in 2009 and 2010 decided to get a masters rather than enter that economy. As the economy recovered, STEM hiring picked up substantially and people with a masters degree were quite hirable. https://www.bls.gov/spotlight/2017/science-technology-engineering-and-mathematics-stem-occupations-past-present-and-future/pdf/science-technology-engineering-and-mathematics-stem-occupations-past-present-and-future.pdf https://www.bls.gov/spotlight/2017/science-technology-engine... > Employment in STEM occupations grew by 10.5 percent, or 817,260 jobs, between May 2009 and May 2015, compared with 5.2 percent net growth in non-STEM occupations. Computer occupations and engineers were among the types of STEM occupations with the highest job gains. Employment in computer occupations was nearly 3.2 million in May 2009 and nearly 3.9 million in May 2015. Employment of engineers was nearly 1.5 million in May 2009, compared with over 1.6 million in May 2015. Some STEM occupations lost jobs. In 2009, there were nearly 478,000 jobs in STEM-related sales occupations, compared with approximately 406,000 in 2015.
        lapcat 3y ago
        The OP didn't even say which year this happened. Anyway, I'm not disputing that grad students leave school for job opportunities. I am disputing whether they left because of some student union disagreement, and whether such a union disagreement could somehow limit undergraduate enrollment. Moreover, the budget for the University of Wisconsin is set by the Governor and legislature, so if there's no enough money to pay TAs more, it's their fault.
  - EatingWithForks 3y ago
    TBH the way you explain it sounds to me like 1st and 2nd year stem students were disengaged and uninterested in solidarity with their academic peers who have less options than them. I'm not even particularly fond of the humanities I just don't understand why you wouldn't fight for the allowance for your peers to start families, god damn!
    - andirk 3y ago
      > who have less options than them. So the humanities folks' priority is sculpting a union program to their specific needs. That also doesn't sound very "fight for the allowance of your peers". That's democracy though. Doesn't mean the right choice is made but that the voters pull the strings.
      - EatingWithForks 3y ago
        I think it is objectively the right choice to enable people to build families if they're going to be in a program until their late 20s! This sounds ridiculous to me on its face-- why the hell wouldn't you support your maximally educated populace (getting doctorates) to have families? The 1st and 2nd year STEM kids (literally kids-- you can enter into a masters fresh out of college, so like 21-23 yrs old) who see the opportunity to try and organize to help their humanities peers start families and instead don't participate, exit to industry (an option humanities graduates probably don't have), and say nothing as a governer with a presidential campaign crushes their organizing hopes... a lack of solidarity with one's peers is exactly how it sounds to me.
        lmm 3y ago
        I'm darkly amused that you spend the first half of your comment talking down about how one group of students is "kids" compared to another and then in the second half complain about how those same people have "a lack of solidarity with [their] peers". Gee, I wonder why!
        xvedejas 3y ago
        Calling 22 year olds "kids" and then also saying they have a lack of solidarity with their older "peers" seems a bit insensitive to me. People having families is great, but if their benefits come from the expense of your own salary, that's asking for more than solidarity; that's asking for altruism.
  - Frondo 3y ago
    Democracy isn't perfect, but checking out is the quickest route to ensuring your interests are only minimally represented. True at all levels of democratic organization.
    - mlyle 3y ago
      Checking out and moving to an environment that represents your interests well is a way to see that your interests are met, though.
      - hayst4ck 3y ago
        What happens when there is no where left to move, or the cost of moving is too high? Solidarity, not freedom, is the opposite of tyranny. Neutrality and running away implicitly supports the injustice you are running away from. Flight-ing instead of fighting leaves those left behind to the wolves. Political change only happens once people are willing to put themselves at risk.
        mlyle 3y ago
        Not every battle is mine to fight. I've spent plenty of time tilting at windmills. But there are limits to how much effort I'll put in for collective good.
        hayst4ck 3y ago
        Your lack of solidarity for others means they will have a lack of solidarity for you. The mindset guarantees your exhaustion, loss, and ultimately your oppression. You don't have to fight the battle, but you should at least support those who self sacrifice and hold it in high regard and equally you should feel shame for running away. Your privilege let you run away, but others aren't so lucky.
        mlyle 3y ago
        How do you know how much I've run away from compared to you? Maybe it's been less. But I sure don't stick around in every shitty situation hoping that I can turn it better with enough sweat of the brow and sufficient persuasion to others to play nice. Hopefully you don't, either. The thread we're talking about is a classic tyranny of the majority situation: something that democracies handle poorly. If you're outnumbered by a large factor by people with drastically different interests than you, and it's going to be decided by voting, you're in for a bad time if you stick around.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
ASpring 3y ago
It was great for us at UC Santa Cruz. The reason I had healthcare during grad school was because the union won it right before I joined. The reason they have a housing stipend now (in the most expensive rental market in the US[1]) is because the union fought for a cost-of-living allowance. We at UCSC didn't always agree with the course of the larger UAW 2685 but they did a lot for us. I'm not sure what the system was like in the union in Wisconsin but I'm surprised that more STEM students didn't join and change the course of the union if they were that negatively affected. Our union was democratic almost to a fault but maybe the structure in Wisconsin was different. [1]https://www.sfchronicle.com/realestate/article/most-expensive-rent-california-18167616.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/realestate/article/most-expensiv...
- hedora 3y ago
  When was this? Just before the pandemic, the grad students protested at UAW meetings and went on a wildcat strike after UAW ratified a contract the campus voted against. Later, Janet Nepolitano released police drones and set up barricades to try to shut down the picket lines. Eventually covid ended the drama, but only after some students were deported (I assume. The plan was to deport them, but the story stopped making news once the 2020 lockdowns hit.) Anyway, the UAW was a similar disaster at UC Berkeley a while back. There weren’t widespread protests, but there were salary caps for grad students, and the union eliminated health care coverage for a number of female problems (over student objections).
  - rnk 3y ago
    Female problems? Are you serious, that is a pretty negative way to describe health issues that might apply only to women. Why would you put it that way, it's just kind of dismissive.
    - extasia 3y ago
      How would you have put it, rnk?
      - 3y ago
diob 3y ago
Any sources for this? I tried googling but found nothing.
tibbon 3y ago
One thing to keep in mind is that the union is presumably made of their members, and should act in alignment with some decision making process they arrive at together. Bargaining and figuring out goals shouldn’t be something for just the Bargaining Committee to do in a vacuum. If they valued the “wrong” things, then maybe they were still right for the majority in the union. (I’m a proud technology union member myself, and we are currently in bargaining.)
- hedora 3y ago
  That is not how UAW works. There is an opaque set of rules that lead to UAW reps being elected, and then the UAW reps will not listen to member concerns unless the members first successfully petition to be heard at a meeting. To be counted in the petition, the people that sign it have to physically show up to the meeting, and the rules are set so that they may have to attend multiple meetings. At that point the UAW rep is “allowed” to hear the concerns. Many other things happen that can kill even the most basic common sense request. Eventually, when it is time to vote on the contract, the UAW rolls the negotiations up into multiple campuses (at least with UC), so it is mathematically impossible for a given campus to block a contract ratification. This is exactly what happened with UC Santa Cruz in 2020, and the reason UC Berkeley’s health care plan no longer covers a bunch of women’s health issues. (Word has it the union rep suggested that cut, not the administration.) See my other comments on this thread for links, etc.
  - DiggyJohnson 3y ago
    What women’s health issues were cut?
  - tibbon 3y ago
    Do you know why they choose the UAW? It seems a really strange fit. The choice of what union to affiliate with, and selecting their rules is something that should have been done carefully, and with the needs of the membership in mind.
ipcress_file 3y ago
I can't know if this is true or false. It reads like it is politically motivated. Can you cite sources to substantiate the many claims you have made here?
- hedora 3y ago
  I don’t know about Wisconsin, but based on how UAW behaves in California, I’d need strong evidence before I believed they acted in the interest of graduate students in any state. Here’s the “do what the union agreed to even though your campus voted against it or you will be fired” notice that UC sent to the UC Santa Cruz graduate students: https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/graduate-student-protests https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/graduate-student-prot... The “small group” of striking students they mention led to UC calling in aid from the military and federal police: https://www.vice.com/en/article/7kppna/california-police-used-military-surveillance-tech-at-grad-student-strike https://www.vice.com/en/article/7kppna/california-police-use... They also set up lots of barricades and released a fleet of police drones. It would have made more news (and likely continued longer), if it hadn’t started just before the Covid lockdowns. Anyway, this all happened after the students protested in front of UAW meetings, and were ignored by their union reps.
dayvid 3y ago
I volunteer taught at a high school for a few months in Milwaukee when Scott Walker was in power. A lot of poor kids were bused to this school in a nicer neighborhood and couldn't do sports or extracurriculars because Walker cut funding for extra school buses to come later.
- throwawaylinux 3y ago
  Such a weird concept, I could never understand it. Why not spend effort making their local neighborhoods and schools better? Everybody grew up with richer and "better" schools and areas, I would have hated being sent out to those.
  - shard 3y ago
    Likely a matter of the parents in richer neighborhoods being able to donate more time and money to the local school than in poorer neighborhoods. The buildings are better, there are more resources available to teachers, more extra-curricular activities, skilled teachers fight to be posted there. Certainly things can be improved at schools in poorer neighborhoods, but I doubt it could be equalized to the point where kids won't benefit from being bussed to the richer neighborhood schools.
    - throwawaylinux 3y ago
      It's not really solving the problem though, is it? The bad neighborhoods and bad schools are still there. And the idea that if you can't equalize it to rich neighborhods (when they can and will never be equal anyway even with this bussig) then there's no point, is exactly the kind of thing I find absurd about it. I don't deny that it might help some kids some amount. Although now I'm curious -- what kind of improvement does the evidence actually show? Anything close to "equalized"?
    - rightbyte 3y ago
      "Good school" is like 99% pupil safety and the general disciplin related and 1% other. Money won't buy you that.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
vkou 3y ago
Why wouldn't all the 1st and 2nd year STEM students bail for the private sector, right when a massive STEM hiring boom started across the economy?
ttymck 3y ago
> Stipends were the lowest in the country among major research universities Is this adjusting for cost of living?
PeterStuer 3y ago
This is a real issue. Graduate students are a very heterogenic bunch, with some study domains forfeiting very substantial wage and carreer opportunities by staying at university, and students in other fields have no or comparably very less lucrative prospects outside of academia. Not differentiating these groups does have a real impact. (I was on the board of a university so had a first row seat to this)
LatteLazy 3y ago
Forming a union is one thing. Actually agreeing what to demand and getting it is another. That seems to be where these things break down. I watched the Amazon union go from popular and "more money, less crazy metrics, more toilet breaks" to "end racism in Amercia" and then no one wanted to risk their jobs to ask for the impossible...
- autoexec 3y ago
  If you mean in AL there was a lot wrong there including massive union busting efforts and a lack of worker education on what unions are, but people who want a union really should choose their union leadership carefully and be ready to replace them if they feel they aren't being represented.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

bigbillheck 3y ago

> Union favored the 8th year humanities students at the expense of the 1 and 2 year STEM students Having been a one-time 1st or 2nd year STEM student, I think this is the proper decision.

CraigRo 3y ago
Caused huge attrition of the 1st and 2nd year stem students (i.e. quit with a masters). The union was dominated by humanities students, and they fought for what they wanted, not what the overall membership wanted. Very few STEM folks had any interest in being part of the union, but because so many voted with their feet, it was hopeless to set up a decertifiying petition.
- renewiltord 3y ago
  This is an interesting story. I don't understand why it was flagkilled. Is it obviously false or something?
  - jimbob45 3y ago
    It's presidential election season in the US. People are going to fight hard to bury what the other side says and raise up what their own side is saying. Here's some free advice: leave until January 2025 and spend your newly free time learning a language or growing a garden.
  - lapcat 3y ago
    > Is it obviously false or something? Yes. Doesn't "a bunch of them went off and got private sector jobs instead, limiting the size of the undergrad population" sound extremely implausible to you? As if graduate students can control enrollment. The comment sounds like a political hit piece, with no evidence provided. And Scott Walker was a major union buster who spurred massive protests at the Wisconsin State Capitol in 2011 and a recall election (which Walker unfortunately won). The University of Wisconsin Teaching Assistants Association is one of the oldest student unions in the nation. It's hardly a "disaster".
    - shagie 3y ago
      A number of STEM majors graduating in 2009 and 2010 decided to get a masters rather than enter that economy. As the economy recovered, STEM hiring picked up substantially and people with a masters degree were quite hirable. https://www.bls.gov/spotlight/2017/science-technology-engineering-and-mathematics-stem-occupations-past-present-and-future/pdf/science-technology-engineering-and-mathematics-stem-occupations-past-present-and-future.pdf https://www.bls.gov/spotlight/2017/science-technology-engine... > Employment in STEM occupations grew by 10.5 percent, or 817,260 jobs, between May 2009 and May 2015, compared with 5.2 percent net growth in non-STEM occupations. Computer occupations and engineers were among the types of STEM occupations with the highest job gains. Employment in computer occupations was nearly 3.2 million in May 2009 and nearly 3.9 million in May 2015. Employment of engineers was nearly 1.5 million in May 2009, compared with over 1.6 million in May 2015. Some STEM occupations lost jobs. In 2009, there were nearly 478,000 jobs in STEM-related sales occupations, compared with approximately 406,000 in 2015.
      - lapcat 3y ago
        The OP didn't even say which year this happened. Anyway, I'm not disputing that grad students leave school for job opportunities. I am disputing whether they left because of some student union disagreement, and whether such a union disagreement could somehow limit undergraduate enrollment. Moreover, the budget for the University of Wisconsin is set by the Governor and legislature, so if there's no enough money to pay TAs more, it's their fault.
- EatingWithForks 3y ago
  TBH the way you explain it sounds to me like 1st and 2nd year stem students were disengaged and uninterested in solidarity with their academic peers who have less options than them. I'm not even particularly fond of the humanities I just don't understand why you wouldn't fight for the allowance for your peers to start families, god damn!
  - andirk 3y ago
    > who have less options than them. So the humanities folks' priority is sculpting a union program to their specific needs. That also doesn't sound very "fight for the allowance of your peers". That's democracy though. Doesn't mean the right choice is made but that the voters pull the strings.
    - EatingWithForks 3y ago
      I think it is objectively the right choice to enable people to build families if they're going to be in a program until their late 20s! This sounds ridiculous to me on its face-- why the hell wouldn't you support your maximally educated populace (getting doctorates) to have families? The 1st and 2nd year STEM kids (literally kids-- you can enter into a masters fresh out of college, so like 21-23 yrs old) who see the opportunity to try and organize to help their humanities peers start families and instead don't participate, exit to industry (an option humanities graduates probably don't have), and say nothing as a governer with a presidential campaign crushes their organizing hopes... a lack of solidarity with one's peers is exactly how it sounds to me.
      - lmm 3y ago
        I'm darkly amused that you spend the first half of your comment talking down about how one group of students is "kids" compared to another and then in the second half complain about how those same people have "a lack of solidarity with [their] peers". Gee, I wonder why!
      - xvedejas 3y ago
        Calling 22 year olds "kids" and then also saying they have a lack of solidarity with their older "peers" seems a bit insensitive to me. People having families is great, but if their benefits come from the expense of your own salary, that's asking for more than solidarity; that's asking for altruism.
- Frondo 3y ago
  Democracy isn't perfect, but checking out is the quickest route to ensuring your interests are only minimally represented. True at all levels of democratic organization.
  - mlyle 3y ago
    Checking out and moving to an environment that represents your interests well is a way to see that your interests are met, though.
    - hayst4ck 3y ago
      What happens when there is no where left to move, or the cost of moving is too high? Solidarity, not freedom, is the opposite of tyranny. Neutrality and running away implicitly supports the injustice you are running away from. Flight-ing instead of fighting leaves those left behind to the wolves. Political change only happens once people are willing to put themselves at risk.
      - mlyle 3y ago
        Not every battle is mine to fight. I've spent plenty of time tilting at windmills. But there are limits to how much effort I'll put in for collective good.
        hayst4ck 3y ago
        Your lack of solidarity for others means they will have a lack of solidarity for you. The mindset guarantees your exhaustion, loss, and ultimately your oppression. You don't have to fight the battle, but you should at least support those who self sacrifice and hold it in high regard and equally you should feel shame for running away. Your privilege let you run away, but others aren't so lucky.
        mlyle 3y ago
        How do you know how much I've run away from compared to you? Maybe it's been less. But I sure don't stick around in every shitty situation hoping that I can turn it better with enough sweat of the brow and sufficient persuasion to others to play nice. Hopefully you don't, either. The thread we're talking about is a classic tyranny of the majority situation: something that democracies handle poorly. If you're outnumbered by a large factor by people with drastically different interests than you, and it's going to be decided by voting, you're in for a bad time if you stick around.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

ASpring 3y ago

It was great for us at UC Santa Cruz. The reason I had healthcare during grad school was because the union won it right before I joined. The reason they have a housing stipend now (in the most expensive rental market in the US[1]) is because the union fought for a cost-of-living allowance. We at UCSC didn't always agree with the course of the larger UAW 2685 but they did a lot for us. I'm not sure what the system was like in the union in Wisconsin but I'm surprised that more STEM students didn't join and change the course of the union if they were that negatively affected. Our union was democratic almost to a fault but maybe the structure in Wisconsin was different. [1]https://www.sfchronicle.com/realestate/article/most-expensive-rent-california-18167616.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/realestate/article/most-expensiv...

hedora 3y ago
When was this? Just before the pandemic, the grad students protested at UAW meetings and went on a wildcat strike after UAW ratified a contract the campus voted against. Later, Janet Nepolitano released police drones and set up barricades to try to shut down the picket lines. Eventually covid ended the drama, but only after some students were deported (I assume. The plan was to deport them, but the story stopped making news once the 2020 lockdowns hit.) Anyway, the UAW was a similar disaster at UC Berkeley a while back. There weren’t widespread protests, but there were salary caps for grad students, and the union eliminated health care coverage for a number of female problems (over student objections).
- rnk 3y ago
  Female problems? Are you serious, that is a pretty negative way to describe health issues that might apply only to women. Why would you put it that way, it's just kind of dismissive.
  - extasia 3y ago
    How would you have put it, rnk?
    - 3y ago

diob 3y ago

Any sources for this? I tried googling but found nothing.

tibbon 3y ago

One thing to keep in mind is that the union is presumably made of their members, and should act in alignment with some decision making process they arrive at together. Bargaining and figuring out goals shouldn’t be something for just the Bargaining Committee to do in a vacuum. If they valued the “wrong” things, then maybe they were still right for the majority in the union. (I’m a proud technology union member myself, and we are currently in bargaining.)

hedora 3y ago
That is not how UAW works. There is an opaque set of rules that lead to UAW reps being elected, and then the UAW reps will not listen to member concerns unless the members first successfully petition to be heard at a meeting. To be counted in the petition, the people that sign it have to physically show up to the meeting, and the rules are set so that they may have to attend multiple meetings. At that point the UAW rep is “allowed” to hear the concerns. Many other things happen that can kill even the most basic common sense request. Eventually, when it is time to vote on the contract, the UAW rolls the negotiations up into multiple campuses (at least with UC), so it is mathematically impossible for a given campus to block a contract ratification. This is exactly what happened with UC Santa Cruz in 2020, and the reason UC Berkeley’s health care plan no longer covers a bunch of women’s health issues. (Word has it the union rep suggested that cut, not the administration.) See my other comments on this thread for links, etc.
- DiggyJohnson 3y ago
  What women’s health issues were cut?
- tibbon 3y ago
  Do you know why they choose the UAW? It seems a really strange fit. The choice of what union to affiliate with, and selecting their rules is something that should have been done carefully, and with the needs of the membership in mind.

ipcress_file 3y ago

I can't know if this is true or false. It reads like it is politically motivated. Can you cite sources to substantiate the many claims you have made here?

hedora 3y ago
I don’t know about Wisconsin, but based on how UAW behaves in California, I’d need strong evidence before I believed they acted in the interest of graduate students in any state. Here’s the “do what the union agreed to even though your campus voted against it or you will be fired” notice that UC sent to the UC Santa Cruz graduate students: https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/graduate-student-protests https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/graduate-student-prot... The “small group” of striking students they mention led to UC calling in aid from the military and federal police: https://www.vice.com/en/article/7kppna/california-police-used-military-surveillance-tech-at-grad-student-strike https://www.vice.com/en/article/7kppna/california-police-use... They also set up lots of barricades and released a fleet of police drones. It would have made more news (and likely continued longer), if it hadn’t started just before the Covid lockdowns. Anyway, this all happened after the students protested in front of UAW meetings, and were ignored by their union reps.

dayvid 3y ago

I volunteer taught at a high school for a few months in Milwaukee when Scott Walker was in power. A lot of poor kids were bused to this school in a nicer neighborhood and couldn't do sports or extracurriculars because Walker cut funding for extra school buses to come later.

throwawaylinux 3y ago
Such a weird concept, I could never understand it. Why not spend effort making their local neighborhoods and schools better? Everybody grew up with richer and "better" schools and areas, I would have hated being sent out to those.
- shard 3y ago
  Likely a matter of the parents in richer neighborhoods being able to donate more time and money to the local school than in poorer neighborhoods. The buildings are better, there are more resources available to teachers, more extra-curricular activities, skilled teachers fight to be posted there. Certainly things can be improved at schools in poorer neighborhoods, but I doubt it could be equalized to the point where kids won't benefit from being bussed to the richer neighborhood schools.
  - throwawaylinux 3y ago
    It's not really solving the problem though, is it? The bad neighborhoods and bad schools are still there. And the idea that if you can't equalize it to rich neighborhods (when they can and will never be equal anyway even with this bussig) then there's no point, is exactly the kind of thing I find absurd about it. I don't deny that it might help some kids some amount. Although now I'm curious -- what kind of improvement does the evidence actually show? Anything close to "equalized"?
  - rightbyte 3y ago
    "Good school" is like 99% pupil safety and the general disciplin related and 1% other. Money won't buy you that.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

vkou 3y ago

Why wouldn't all the 1st and 2nd year STEM students bail for the private sector, right when a massive STEM hiring boom started across the economy?

ttymck 3y ago

> Stipends were the lowest in the country among major research universities Is this adjusting for cost of living?

PeterStuer 3y ago

This is a real issue. Graduate students are a very heterogenic bunch, with some study domains forfeiting very substantial wage and carreer opportunities by staying at university, and students in other fields have no or comparably very less lucrative prospects outside of academia. Not differentiating these groups does have a real impact. (I was on the board of a university so had a first row seat to this)

LatteLazy 3y ago

Forming a union is one thing. Actually agreeing what to demand and getting it is another. That seems to be where these things break down. I watched the Amazon union go from popular and "more money, less crazy metrics, more toilet breaks" to "end racism in Amercia" and then no one wanted to risk their jobs to ask for the impossible...

autoexec 3y ago
If you mean in AL there was a lot wrong there including massive union busting efforts and a lack of worker education on what unions are, but people who want a union really should choose their union leadership carefully and be ready to replace them if they feel they aren't being represented.