4 ms·

Around 2004-2007 most of the key web specification writers (From WHATWG; Hixie, etc, etc) a) were employed by Opera Software b) were surprisingly young (often

by zgluck 3y ago

Around 2004-2007 most of the key web specification writers (From WHATWG; Hixie, etc, etc) a) were employed by Opera Software b) were surprisingly young (often around or even below the age of 18) Then Google poached most of these people (from their partner; Opera had by then invented the placed browser search engine business model for them; allegedly Google is paying Apple $15B/yr these days.) A few years later the scope of the web started growing in an insane manner, spearheaded by Google. This later period was also the same time that the web got deeply javascriptified and largely turned from documents into apps that you download and execute. Before that it had been documents with sprinkles of javascript.

olliej 3y ago
That's some revisionist history. The bulk of the work was people from Mozilla, Apple, and even Microsoft (those that was mostly in the context of TC39/ECMAScript). Opera did contribute - for similar reasons to Apple: the existing specs were abysmal and making usable browsers was hard simply due to the need to actually work out what a browser is meant to do. Some folk like Anne, Hixie, etc were employed by opera at the time, but to portray that as if that is the majority or "key" work is disingenuous. > Then Google poached most of these people As much as I dislike google, claiming you can poach people implies that they're property, and speaks to the anti-poaching lawsuits of a decade or so ago. > A few years later the scope of the web started growing in an insane manner, spearheaded by Google. Google does take a shotgun approach to specifications, and one of the biggest issues when I left (the frustration of dealing with google engineers significantly impacted the burn out I experienced) was them spewing out piles of half assed "specifications" that helped whatever individual project they were working on at the time rather than well thought out specs that provide general solution to the general problem space. The constant battle against that, especially when in a world where forums like HN are filled with people just parroting AlexR style talking points of "Apple is fighting [BS half assed spec] because they hate the open web".
- zgluck 3y ago
  > speaks to the anti-poaching lawsuits of a decade or so ago. There's a large difference between a) colluding to not hire people between equally sized competitors and b) aggressively reaching out and poaching a (foreign) partner's key people, especially when that partner is 50-100x smaller I'm sure you're aware of this so I'm left a bit confused here. .. > Google does take a shotgun approach to specifications... in a world where forums like HN are filled with people just parroting AlexR style talking points of "Apple is fighting [BS half assed spec] because they hate the open web". Umm... Okay.
  - olliej 3y ago
    > b) aggressively reaching out and poaching a (foreign) partner's key people, especially when that partner is 50-100x smaller > I'm sure you're aware of this so I'm left a bit confused here. So to clarify, if you ever work for a small company you can't move to a bigger competitor? Or are you suggesting legislation that prohibits large companies paying more? I'm really not clear what you think is correct here? > Umm... Okay. Literally I was agreeing with you about the workload that comes from google's approach to spewing "specs" is excessive, especially when coupled with the attitude of chrome fans.
    - zgluck 3y ago
      > I'm really not clear what you think is correct here? Perhaps I'm saying exactly what I wrote and not your explicit misinterpretation of it. Edit: @refulgentis: Google launched AngularJS in 2010, for example.
      - refulgentis 3y ago
        You're not exactly wrong if I parse it carefully with rigid dedication to your desired interpretation. The overall hyperbole of the argument prevents that interpretation from being natural to the reader. (websites in 2011 were just documents with a little sprinkle of javascript here and there is where you 100% lose me)

by zgluck 3y ago

olliej 3y ago

That's some revisionist history. The bulk of the work was people from Mozilla, Apple, and even Microsoft (those that was mostly in the context of TC39/ECMAScript). Opera did contribute - for similar reasons to Apple: the existing specs were abysmal and making usable browsers was hard simply due to the need to actually work out what a browser is meant to do. Some folk like Anne, Hixie, etc were employed by opera at the time, but to portray that as if that is the majority or "key" work is disingenuous. > Then Google poached most of these people As much as I dislike google, claiming you can poach people implies that they're property, and speaks to the anti-poaching lawsuits of a decade or so ago. > A few years later the scope of the web started growing in an insane manner, spearheaded by Google. Google does take a shotgun approach to specifications, and one of the biggest issues when I left (the frustration of dealing with google engineers significantly impacted the burn out I experienced) was them spewing out piles of half assed "specifications" that helped whatever individual project they were working on at the time rather than well thought out specs that provide general solution to the general problem space. The constant battle against that, especially when in a world where forums like HN are filled with people just parroting AlexR style talking points of "Apple is fighting [BS half assed spec] because they hate the open web".

zgluck 3y ago
> speaks to the anti-poaching lawsuits of a decade or so ago. There's a large difference between a) colluding to not hire people between equally sized competitors and b) aggressively reaching out and poaching a (foreign) partner's key people, especially when that partner is 50-100x smaller I'm sure you're aware of this so I'm left a bit confused here. .. > Google does take a shotgun approach to specifications... in a world where forums like HN are filled with people just parroting AlexR style talking points of "Apple is fighting [BS half assed spec] because they hate the open web". Umm... Okay.
- olliej 3y ago
  > b) aggressively reaching out and poaching a (foreign) partner's key people, especially when that partner is 50-100x smaller > I'm sure you're aware of this so I'm left a bit confused here. So to clarify, if you ever work for a small company you can't move to a bigger competitor? Or are you suggesting legislation that prohibits large companies paying more? I'm really not clear what you think is correct here? > Umm... Okay. Literally I was agreeing with you about the workload that comes from google's approach to spewing "specs" is excessive, especially when coupled with the attitude of chrome fans.
  - zgluck 3y ago
    > I'm really not clear what you think is correct here? Perhaps I'm saying exactly what I wrote and not your explicit misinterpretation of it. Edit: @refulgentis: Google launched AngularJS in 2010, for example.
    - refulgentis 3y ago
      You're not exactly wrong if I parse it carefully with rigid dedication to your desired interpretation. The overall hyperbole of the argument prevents that interpretation from being natural to the reader. (websites in 2011 were just documents with a little sprinkle of javascript here and there is where you 100% lose me)