5 ms·

They may have access to backdoors in the baseband firmwares. The baseband is an opaque binary blob that operates outside of the phone's main OS, and its conten

They may have access to backdoors in the baseband firmwares. The baseband is an opaque binary blob that operates outside of the phone's main OS, and its contents are usually considered a trade secret by the manufacturer since it handles low-level hardware interactions with the main radios/etc. Personally, I would be surprised if those systems weren't compromised by agreement. It's already common to see criminals and dissidents get busted because they think that turning a phone off stops it from reporting location data.

mcintyre1994 3y ago
Do the cameras/microphones need to be controlled by the baseband? Naively they seem like they should be at a slightly higher level than the main radios, and should be controlled exclusively by the OS. I'm guessing from your comment there's some reason that's not the case though?
- michael1999 3y ago
  The microphone does need to be connected to the phone. Not so much the camera.
  - madeofpalk 3y ago
    Does it? The OS must be able to send audio to the phone modem (bluetooth, homepod, etc), so it seems reasonable to me that it wouldn't have direct access to the microphone and that would go via OS also.
    - michael1999 3y ago
      Not in theory, but certainly historically. Last I read, there was still an AT command channel present. Some of that IP is super old.
- tiedieconderoga 3y ago
  Tough to say, information about the systems is restricted and hard to come by. I'm pretty sure they have hooks into audio systems for wireless emergency alerts, but could be wrong.
- asjfka 3y ago
  There is this [0] thread from a few years ago. According to the linked article, "unless an IOMMU is used, the baseband has full access to main memory, and can compromise it arbitrarily." No idea how true this statement is. 0: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10905643 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10905643
- rsync 3y ago
  In addition to the basebandy RF stuff that you expect the baseband to do, it also does real-time voice modulation and call quality things like echo and noise cancellation… things that high level OS would do too slowly. In 2023 I suspect this is less and less necessary- apple silicon is very fast and a lot of voice comms goes through an app (FaceTime?) anyway but … I’m sure those capabilities are still in the baseband processor …
soared 3y ago
> It's already common to see criminals and dissidents get busted because they think that turning a phone off stops it from reporting location data. That’s an incredible claim to make with no source. It seems unreasonable to suspect Apple and google would allow some chips they don’t access to battery even when powered off.
- varispeed 3y ago
  Why would you have a source if the tech is "secret"?
  - summarity 3y ago
    Because signals can be measured?
  - soared 3y ago
    Well if you can make claims without a source and say the tech is secret..you can claim literally anything? I have a startup that builds a machine that can complete medical tests from a single drop of blood. The tech is a secret though.
jokoon 3y ago
I wonder if the microwave tip works.

mcintyre1994 3y ago

Do the cameras/microphones need to be controlled by the baseband? Naively they seem like they should be at a slightly higher level than the main radios, and should be controlled exclusively by the OS. I'm guessing from your comment there's some reason that's not the case though?

michael1999 3y ago
The microphone does need to be connected to the phone. Not so much the camera.
- madeofpalk 3y ago
  Does it? The OS must be able to send audio to the phone modem (bluetooth, homepod, etc), so it seems reasonable to me that it wouldn't have direct access to the microphone and that would go via OS also.
  - michael1999 3y ago
    Not in theory, but certainly historically. Last I read, there was still an AT command channel present. Some of that IP is super old.
tiedieconderoga 3y ago
Tough to say, information about the systems is restricted and hard to come by. I'm pretty sure they have hooks into audio systems for wireless emergency alerts, but could be wrong.
asjfka 3y ago
There is this [0] thread from a few years ago. According to the linked article, "unless an IOMMU is used, the baseband has full access to main memory, and can compromise it arbitrarily." No idea how true this statement is. 0: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10905643 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10905643
rsync 3y ago
In addition to the basebandy RF stuff that you expect the baseband to do, it also does real-time voice modulation and call quality things like echo and noise cancellation… things that high level OS would do too slowly. In 2023 I suspect this is less and less necessary- apple silicon is very fast and a lot of voice comms goes through an app (FaceTime?) anyway but … I’m sure those capabilities are still in the baseband processor …

soared 3y ago

> It's already common to see criminals and dissidents get busted because they think that turning a phone off stops it from reporting location data. That’s an incredible claim to make with no source. It seems unreasonable to suspect Apple and google would allow some chips they don’t access to battery even when powered off.

varispeed 3y ago
Why would you have a source if the tech is "secret"?
- summarity 3y ago
  Because signals can be measured?
- soared 3y ago
  Well if you can make claims without a source and say the tech is secret..you can claim literally anything? I have a startup that builds a machine that can complete medical tests from a single drop of blood. The tech is a secret though.

jokoon 3y ago

I wonder if the microwave tip works.