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I regret getting a pixel, and not a fairphone with a removable battery With the current level of oversight on the police (police of police is a meme by now), a

I regret getting a pixel, and not a fairphone with a removable battery With the current level of oversight on the police (police of police is a meme by now), and the level of cybersecurity at the government, everyone's phones will be activated within a few months. At least some government agent will have fun watching what ppl visit on the internet during their spare time, and can enable the camera to watch what they're doing when they review the content. The fight against crime is ramping up ! I don't get why they don't hire back more detectives and accountants to really investigate actual evidence, instead of just listening to potential criminals for hours. They have been reducing the force for 15 years (especially the forces that investigated financial and workplace crimes) That would be more effective.

noisy_boy 3y ago
Who knows if Framework[0] survive long enough, they might create a phone with choices like GrapheneOS[1] etc. Their 16" laptop reminds me of Project Ara[2]. [0]: https://frame.work/ https://frame.work/ [1]: https://grapheneos.org/ https://grapheneos.org/ [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Ara https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Ara
rtkwe 3y ago
There's always the faraday bag or simply not taking it to your meeting/activity that have been the recommended options for opsec even when phones had removable batteries.
- dismalpedigree 3y ago
  Faraday bags are not effective against all frequencies. Specifically the 5G frequencies are known to be very difficult to block with a cage ( but do have relatively short ranges)
  - bagels 3y ago
    It also is ineffective at blocking audio which can be shipped out as soon as it comes out of the bag.
    - logifail 3y ago
      > It also is ineffective at blocking audio If you turn your phone off and immediately put it in a Faraday bag, how would it receive a remote command to turn on and start recording audio?
      - xnzakg 3y ago
        That's implying that it is actually off and not just pretending to be off, and that it requires a command to start recording instead of just constantly recording and only uploading when commanded to
        logifail 3y ago
        If we're assuming a well-funded and motivated attacker, surely any device is fair game for being modified to record you even when it's apparently off? Of course this applies whether it appears to have a removable "battery" or not.
        rtkwe 3y ago
        Far enough down the threat model rabbit hole the real solution is just ditch the phone if you're doing anything mildly antigovernment. That at least forces them to do a bit more work to spy on you. That's always one of the big issues in opsec/security discussions, we can always imagine a more motivated or well funded attacker but the likelihood of those being deployed against you change with the difficulty of implementing those methods.
  - someplaceguy 3y ago
    Would putting it inside a microwave work? I think I recall Snowden did that but I'm not entirely sure I remember correctly. Edit: on the other hand, I'm now considering the possibility that the phone might be recording your audio even without network access and then transmit it later when you take it outside the microwave. So you'd have to be physically far away from the microwave for the microphone not to hear you, which means the microwave and faraday cages don't add anything useful.
    - rtkwe 3y ago
      Running or not? /s The former is a definite yes but expensive while the latter is probably also fine for many situations.
    - sidewndr46 3y ago
      As long as you turn the microwave on, yes that will be effective.
- someplaceguy 3y ago
  Regarding the Faraday bag, as I mentioned in another comment, that is not useful because the phone could be recording your audio anyway and then just transmit it later when you take it out of the bag. What you'd really want is some kind of soundproof box, but I'm not sure if an effective one exists because microphones can be sensitive and audio recordings can be amplified.
  - mcpackieh 3y ago
    IIRC, Snowden tried to use a hotel room minifridge for this purpose.
- fsflover 3y ago
  I prefer hardware kill switches (and my phone has them).
  - sparrish 3y ago
    Which phone is that?
    - fsflover 3y ago
      Librem 5.
px43 3y ago
A Pixel phone probably gives you the best chance of resisting this sort of attack. The most vulnerable phones are the older, cheaper phones that run outdated versions of Android. Pixel phones are generally the first to get security updates, and so the quickest to get patches when spyware companies start using new bugs.
- KennyBlanken 3y ago
  Nexus/Pixel devices literally come out of the box with Verizon background crapware installed that you cannot disable or remove even if you're not a Verizon customer. Google long sold out, friend.
  - estebank 3y ago
    That hasn't been the case for any of the Nexus or Pixel devices I bought straight from Google.
    - hypothesis 3y ago
      Nexus devices did have such “feature”. IIRC it was activated by a carrier SIM upon first boot and some people were quite sad after inserting say AT&T SIM into their supposedly “unlocked” phone.
  - flanbiscuit 3y ago
    I use T-Mobile and I bought my Pixel 5a directly through Google at an official in-person Google store. Does my phone have this Verizon bloatware? What apps should I be looking for? I googled it and I'm only seeing people complain about this Verizon bloatware from people who bought it through Verizon.
    - Anthony-G 3y ago
      > I googled it Google don’t index sites which contain that kind of information. :) More seriously, I too would have bought a Fairphone (for ethical reasons) to replace the crap second-hand Android phone that I’d been using for the past 8 years. However, I recently received a gift of a new iPhone so I probably won’t be getting a new phone for another 8 years or so. The iPhone doesn’t have any bloatware and it does have lots of options for security and privacy so I’m happy to use it from that point of view. Aside from not being able to remove the battery, I don’t think the average user can do much better than that, given that they have no insight into or control over the baseband layer. I’ve never owned a Pixel but I’d expect (hope) that one purchased directly from Google would be similar to in iPhone bought from Apple.
petre 3y ago
They're already allowed to shoot you if you don't stop your car, all in the name fo fighting terrorism, so I'm not surprised they can snnop at your camera and microphone. I'm quite sure this is linked to the recent protests. Je suis Charlie > je suis la gendarmerie > l'etat, c'est moi. Back to 1655 in three easy steps.
- hinata08 3y ago
  and ban 'noisy devices' at protests in the name of fighting terrorism, as well as categorizing a kitchen pan in that category.
pessimizer 3y ago
> They have been reducing the force for 15 years (especially the forces that investigated financial and workplace crimes) They will eventually just be heavily armored SWAT teams that just go to whatever house the AI flagged and arrest everybody.
jocaal 3y ago
GrapheneOS is a project that is hardening android and they mostly develop for pixels. If you are really paranoid, you can check that out.
- aembleton 3y ago
  Unfortunatelly the baseband is not controlled by GrapheneOS
louloulou 3y ago
https://grapheneos.org/ https://grapheneos.org/ https://calyxos.org/ https://calyxos.org/

noisy_boy 3y ago

Who knows if Framework[0] survive long enough, they might create a phone with choices like GrapheneOS[1] etc. Their 16" laptop reminds me of Project Ara[2]. [0]: https://frame.work/ https://frame.work/ [1]: https://grapheneos.org/ https://grapheneos.org/ [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Ara https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Ara

rtkwe 3y ago

There's always the faraday bag or simply not taking it to your meeting/activity that have been the recommended options for opsec even when phones had removable batteries.

dismalpedigree 3y ago
Faraday bags are not effective against all frequencies. Specifically the 5G frequencies are known to be very difficult to block with a cage ( but do have relatively short ranges)
- bagels 3y ago
  It also is ineffective at blocking audio which can be shipped out as soon as it comes out of the bag.
  - logifail 3y ago
    > It also is ineffective at blocking audio If you turn your phone off and immediately put it in a Faraday bag, how would it receive a remote command to turn on and start recording audio?
    - xnzakg 3y ago
      That's implying that it is actually off and not just pretending to be off, and that it requires a command to start recording instead of just constantly recording and only uploading when commanded to
      - logifail 3y ago
        If we're assuming a well-funded and motivated attacker, surely any device is fair game for being modified to record you even when it's apparently off? Of course this applies whether it appears to have a removable "battery" or not.
        rtkwe 3y ago
        Far enough down the threat model rabbit hole the real solution is just ditch the phone if you're doing anything mildly antigovernment. That at least forces them to do a bit more work to spy on you. That's always one of the big issues in opsec/security discussions, we can always imagine a more motivated or well funded attacker but the likelihood of those being deployed against you change with the difficulty of implementing those methods.
- someplaceguy 3y ago
  Would putting it inside a microwave work? I think I recall Snowden did that but I'm not entirely sure I remember correctly. Edit: on the other hand, I'm now considering the possibility that the phone might be recording your audio even without network access and then transmit it later when you take it outside the microwave. So you'd have to be physically far away from the microwave for the microphone not to hear you, which means the microwave and faraday cages don't add anything useful.
  - rtkwe 3y ago
    Running or not? /s The former is a definite yes but expensive while the latter is probably also fine for many situations.
  - sidewndr46 3y ago
    As long as you turn the microwave on, yes that will be effective.
someplaceguy 3y ago
Regarding the Faraday bag, as I mentioned in another comment, that is not useful because the phone could be recording your audio anyway and then just transmit it later when you take it out of the bag. What you'd really want is some kind of soundproof box, but I'm not sure if an effective one exists because microphones can be sensitive and audio recordings can be amplified.
- mcpackieh 3y ago
  IIRC, Snowden tried to use a hotel room minifridge for this purpose.
fsflover 3y ago
I prefer hardware kill switches (and my phone has them).
- sparrish 3y ago
  Which phone is that?
  - fsflover 3y ago
    Librem 5.

px43 3y ago

A Pixel phone probably gives you the best chance of resisting this sort of attack. The most vulnerable phones are the older, cheaper phones that run outdated versions of Android. Pixel phones are generally the first to get security updates, and so the quickest to get patches when spyware companies start using new bugs.

KennyBlanken 3y ago
Nexus/Pixel devices literally come out of the box with Verizon background crapware installed that you cannot disable or remove even if you're not a Verizon customer. Google long sold out, friend.
- estebank 3y ago
  That hasn't been the case for any of the Nexus or Pixel devices I bought straight from Google.
  - hypothesis 3y ago
    Nexus devices did have such “feature”. IIRC it was activated by a carrier SIM upon first boot and some people were quite sad after inserting say AT&T SIM into their supposedly “unlocked” phone.
- flanbiscuit 3y ago
  I use T-Mobile and I bought my Pixel 5a directly through Google at an official in-person Google store. Does my phone have this Verizon bloatware? What apps should I be looking for? I googled it and I'm only seeing people complain about this Verizon bloatware from people who bought it through Verizon.
  - Anthony-G 3y ago
    > I googled it Google don’t index sites which contain that kind of information. :) More seriously, I too would have bought a Fairphone (for ethical reasons) to replace the crap second-hand Android phone that I’d been using for the past 8 years. However, I recently received a gift of a new iPhone so I probably won’t be getting a new phone for another 8 years or so. The iPhone doesn’t have any bloatware and it does have lots of options for security and privacy so I’m happy to use it from that point of view. Aside from not being able to remove the battery, I don’t think the average user can do much better than that, given that they have no insight into or control over the baseband layer. I’ve never owned a Pixel but I’d expect (hope) that one purchased directly from Google would be similar to in iPhone bought from Apple.

petre 3y ago

They're already allowed to shoot you if you don't stop your car, all in the name fo fighting terrorism, so I'm not surprised they can snnop at your camera and microphone. I'm quite sure this is linked to the recent protests. Je suis Charlie > je suis la gendarmerie > l'etat, c'est moi. Back to 1655 in three easy steps.

hinata08 3y ago
and ban 'noisy devices' at protests in the name of fighting terrorism, as well as categorizing a kitchen pan in that category.

pessimizer 3y ago

> They have been reducing the force for 15 years (especially the forces that investigated financial and workplace crimes) They will eventually just be heavily armored SWAT teams that just go to whatever house the AI flagged and arrest everybody.

jocaal 3y ago

GrapheneOS is a project that is hardening android and they mostly develop for pixels. If you are really paranoid, you can check that out.

aembleton 3y ago
Unfortunatelly the baseband is not controlled by GrapheneOS

louloulou 3y ago

https://grapheneos.org/ https://grapheneos.org/ https://calyxos.org/ https://calyxos.org/