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> why it bothers you so to be managed by someone younger. The idea that when you grow up you go up in rank. And if you have younger people who are above you, a

> why it bothers you so to be managed by someone younger. The idea that when you grow up you go up in rank. And if you have younger people who are above you, and you have not moved up at all, then you feel like you’re not performing well. I think this feeling is artificial and externally influenced. Some of us are made to do work. Others are made to oversee. They are both equal in rank. Just different set of skill.

jsjsof 3y ago
Except managers have more authority and higher bonuses, the definition of higher rank.
dijit 3y ago
I think this is the core of it. Good managers never feel like they “outrank” you, they make you feel like they operate in a broader context and allow you to do your best work. I am management now, I only took this role because every time I trusted someone else to manage they let me down; but it really is just a different job, its not “superior” and using words like that to describe management is a huge part of the problem.
- nashashmi 3y ago
  Indeed. The word superior comes from army ranking as in superior officer via chain of command. And then there is the other word: subordinate.
- devnullbrain 3y ago
  Can your reports fire you?
  - imron 3y ago
    Any of them can look for a new job at any time. That’s the reason for the saying: people don’t leave bad jobs, they leave bad managers.
  - dijit 3y ago
    Well, no but that's mainly because of asymmetric numbers. If all reports of a manager complain to the managers manager, that manager will likely be reassigned or reprimanded in a similar manner to a manager and an IC. Also I should note that in most of Europe (at least the parts I've worked in), a managers voice is just a louder voice in a room of other managers- and firing someone is something that is not done by an individual, it's a discussion with managers and HR. It's not taken lightly to fire people, even in places that are "at will" (theoretically) like Denmark.
    - kelipso 3y ago
      Depends on the company but I'd say in most small and medium-sized companies in the US, your manager can fire you without cause and be just fine with maybe some half-assed explanation if upper management asks questions.
  - paxys 3y ago
    At most companies your direct manager can't fire you either. They simply write reviews and escalate problems to upper management/executives/HR, who then decide whether to act on it or not.
JohnFen 3y ago
Interesting. I never thought of managers as being a "higher rank" than those they are managing. Managers are just doing a particular job that needs to be done, like all of the other jobs in a company.
- gtirloni 3y ago
  Ranking is about a hieararchy and where someone is positioned in it. Managers are positioned higher in the hiearchy so it seems fair to say they are "higher rank". Whether that translates to real power or not depends on a lot of things. I think this discussion is conflating ranking and skill and these don't often correlate. > Managers are just doing a particular job that needs to be done, like all of the other jobs in a company. That particular job can fire you, in most cases. Our industry lives in a bubble compared to most other industries. Here a senior programmer can have as much power as the manager that is managing them. Especially in the case of staff/principal engineers.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    > Managers are positioned higher in the hiearchy What hierarchy? Are you talking about the org chart? I don't see that as a hierarchy in the sense I think it's being used here. It's just a description of who is managing who, not of "rank" in some sort of militaryesque sense. My manager is not my "superior". He's the person responsible for ensuring that everyone in his department is working in an aligned manner, and for ensuring that everyone has the fewest roadblocks possible. > That particular job can fire you, in most cases. Well, he can't, really. He can recommend that I be fired, and his recommendation carries a great deal of weight, but it's not his call. But ignoring that... I don't see how that's very relevant. But perhaps I'm just being misled by the use of the term "rank". That implies a superiority of some sort to me, and that superiority doesn't exist. It's just a different job, is all. It also implies that "manager" is a rung up on a ladder, and I don't think it is. It's a different job altogether, not an evolution of the job I have.
    - gtirloni 3y ago
      You seem to be attributing your personal view of the world to the word "rank", to be honest. It's not about an individual's self worth or how you think companies to organize.

jsjsof 3y ago

Except managers have more authority and higher bonuses, the definition of higher rank.

dijit 3y ago

I think this is the core of it. Good managers never feel like they “outrank” you, they make you feel like they operate in a broader context and allow you to do your best work. I am management now, I only took this role because every time I trusted someone else to manage they let me down; but it really is just a different job, its not “superior” and using words like that to describe management is a huge part of the problem.

nashashmi 3y ago
Indeed. The word superior comes from army ranking as in superior officer via chain of command. And then there is the other word: subordinate.
devnullbrain 3y ago
Can your reports fire you?
- imron 3y ago
  Any of them can look for a new job at any time. That’s the reason for the saying: people don’t leave bad jobs, they leave bad managers.
- dijit 3y ago
  Well, no but that's mainly because of asymmetric numbers. If all reports of a manager complain to the managers manager, that manager will likely be reassigned or reprimanded in a similar manner to a manager and an IC. Also I should note that in most of Europe (at least the parts I've worked in), a managers voice is just a louder voice in a room of other managers- and firing someone is something that is not done by an individual, it's a discussion with managers and HR. It's not taken lightly to fire people, even in places that are "at will" (theoretically) like Denmark.
  - kelipso 3y ago
    Depends on the company but I'd say in most small and medium-sized companies in the US, your manager can fire you without cause and be just fine with maybe some half-assed explanation if upper management asks questions.
- paxys 3y ago
  At most companies your direct manager can't fire you either. They simply write reviews and escalate problems to upper management/executives/HR, who then decide whether to act on it or not.

JohnFen 3y ago

Interesting. I never thought of managers as being a "higher rank" than those they are managing. Managers are just doing a particular job that needs to be done, like all of the other jobs in a company.

gtirloni 3y ago
Ranking is about a hieararchy and where someone is positioned in it. Managers are positioned higher in the hiearchy so it seems fair to say they are "higher rank". Whether that translates to real power or not depends on a lot of things. I think this discussion is conflating ranking and skill and these don't often correlate. > Managers are just doing a particular job that needs to be done, like all of the other jobs in a company. That particular job can fire you, in most cases. Our industry lives in a bubble compared to most other industries. Here a senior programmer can have as much power as the manager that is managing them. Especially in the case of staff/principal engineers.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  > Managers are positioned higher in the hiearchy What hierarchy? Are you talking about the org chart? I don't see that as a hierarchy in the sense I think it's being used here. It's just a description of who is managing who, not of "rank" in some sort of militaryesque sense. My manager is not my "superior". He's the person responsible for ensuring that everyone in his department is working in an aligned manner, and for ensuring that everyone has the fewest roadblocks possible. > That particular job can fire you, in most cases. Well, he can't, really. He can recommend that I be fired, and his recommendation carries a great deal of weight, but it's not his call. But ignoring that... I don't see how that's very relevant. But perhaps I'm just being misled by the use of the term "rank". That implies a superiority of some sort to me, and that superiority doesn't exist. It's just a different job, is all. It also implies that "manager" is a rung up on a ladder, and I don't think it is. It's a different job altogether, not an evolution of the job I have.
  - gtirloni 3y ago
    You seem to be attributing your personal view of the world to the word "rank", to be honest. It's not about an individual's self worth or how you think companies to organize.