5 ms·

Laravel, the framework that made me quit PHP. Not sure the concept of "one framework doing everything" will resonate well with the wider Go community. I will ke

by mpldr 3y ago

Laravel, the framework that made me quit PHP. Not sure the concept of "one framework doing everything" will resonate well with the wider Go community. I will keep an eye on it though.

lamoureux 3y ago
[dead]
arcanemachiner 3y ago
> Laravel, the framework that made me quit PHP. I would be interested to hear more.
- ABNW 3y ago
  Also interested in hearing more - first person i've heard say they do not like Laravel...
  - mgkimsal 3y ago
    Poke around a bit more; you'll find plenty of people don't care for it.
    - spiderfarmer 3y ago
      Overly pedantic programmers always have trouble conforming to a framework where compromises are made in ways they can't get behind. For every one of these, there a thousands of programmers who are very successful with the same framework.
- boredpudding 3y ago
  Not OP. While I didn't quite PHP. I just don't work with Laravel. A lot of good points are written down here: https://old.reddit.com/r/PHP/comments/131t2k1/laravel_considered_harmful/ https://old.reddit.com/r/PHP/comments/131t2k1/laravel_consid... In short, it just doesn't use good programming principles. It's not just easy to write code with bad principles, it's everywhere in the tutorials. There's of course Laravel apps out there that do have good programming principles. It's very much possible to write good code with Laravel. It's just less common.
  - solraph 3y ago
    Also not OP, but the linked reddit post sums up one of the major reasons I had to get out of PHP several years ago. Everything is/was moving to Laravel in PHP land. I got tired of dealing with highly coupled, non-unit testable code that seemed to go out of it's way to ignore SOLID principles. God help us if it this project becomes the normal way of writing http go servers applications. Maybe at that point it's time to become an embedded rust programmer or a monk.
    - sshine 3y ago
      When I studied computer science, I promised myself to never touch PHP again. But PHP has more to give than just as a birthing ground for teenage programmers. When I many years later accepted a PHP job as a senior developer, PHP provided a consistent experience of "bad practice everywhere", a fractal of cringe I couldn't ironically reproduce. Working with this for a year taught me a lot about how to deal with critical legacy software beyond repair and being responsible with what you've got. I think there is no better way to get your hands consistently dirty than with PHP. Coincidence: I do embedded Rust, and my wife is a buddhist monk. ;-)
      - cardanome 3y ago
        Many of my programming jobs in PHP had me working with people that were super anal about "good coding practices". Especially the Symfony guys seem to try to be the new ultra-corporate Java. So I don't think it a issue with the language but more that you didn't find your people. (Personally, I actual like working with legacy crap. It's easy money and reminds me of the past when things were simpler.) I feel most of the PHP community is pretty mature these days. More pragmatic than Rust, sure but that is a good point in my book. Though I am glad you found your enlightenment.
        lakomen 3y ago
        Symfony was the worst. Holy shit dude. I still have to deal with a legacy Symfony project, which needs to be rewritten because of their... I don't even know what to call it. That stof guy was one of the worst. Inconsistencies, incompatibility. But the dogma was strong. Indeed they wanted to be the Java of PHP. And so inefficient. Imagine duplicating all variables of a request context for dogmas sake. So you can later do Request->getVar() from their own copy. It shows a basic not understanding of the language.
sawirricardo 3y ago
care to elaborate? interested to hear more about your use case back then
- spiderfarmer 3y ago
  Overly pedantic programmers always have trouble conforming to a framework where compromises are made in ways they can't get behind. For every one of these, there a thousands of programmers who are very successful with the same framework.
mpldr 3y ago
Since this has generated quite some interest, the reasons I dislike Laravel are: - so. many. godobjects. - I dislike ORMs. I could not put my finger on it, while using PHP frameworks, because they were omni-present; but after using Python, Go, and C#, I found it to be easier for me to just avoid the overhead of an ORM. - Terrible structure. Sorting classes by type is something I have experienced to be generally less helpful than sorting by "topic" (not a native speaker, so this might not be the correct word for it. I recently heard it compared to collecting cars, then disassembling them and sorting by tires, steering wheels, seats, and so on) - Too much magic™. I understand that many like this about it, but I found it harder to understand what exactly the program is doing. It's not a lot, but after literally years of PHP and having these paper cuts almost weekly, I was at one point fed up. I first switched to CodeIgniter, which I found more pleasant, but still not even comparable to the comfort that cherry-picking components gets you (yes, you can by using composer, but most people I have spoken to discouraged that in favour of Laravel's built-in fun).
- supriyo-biswas 3y ago
  I agree Laravel is a bit too much magic, but I’ve found Eloquent to be a top notch ORM. It hasn’t really failed me in any way, so I’d be interested to hear what you specifically disliked about it.
- mablopoule 3y ago
  While I enjoyed my (small) foray into the world of Laravel, I'm happy to see something other than unabashed praise for Laravel here on HN. A technical decision should be done by weighting it's pros and cons, not just by looking at the pros. Agree on the 'Sorting classes by types', it's something I've always found surprising too, and love the car-collection metaphor.

by mpldr 3y ago

Laravel, the framework that made me quit PHP. Not sure the concept of "one framework doing everything" will resonate well with the wider Go community. I will keep an eye on it though.

lamoureux 3y ago

[dead]

arcanemachiner 3y ago

> Laravel, the framework that made me quit PHP. I would be interested to hear more.

ABNW 3y ago
Also interested in hearing more - first person i've heard say they do not like Laravel...
- mgkimsal 3y ago
  Poke around a bit more; you'll find plenty of people don't care for it.
  - spiderfarmer 3y ago
    Overly pedantic programmers always have trouble conforming to a framework where compromises are made in ways they can't get behind. For every one of these, there a thousands of programmers who are very successful with the same framework.
boredpudding 3y ago
Not OP. While I didn't quite PHP. I just don't work with Laravel. A lot of good points are written down here: https://old.reddit.com/r/PHP/comments/131t2k1/laravel_considered_harmful/ https://old.reddit.com/r/PHP/comments/131t2k1/laravel_consid... In short, it just doesn't use good programming principles. It's not just easy to write code with bad principles, it's everywhere in the tutorials. There's of course Laravel apps out there that do have good programming principles. It's very much possible to write good code with Laravel. It's just less common.
- solraph 3y ago
  Also not OP, but the linked reddit post sums up one of the major reasons I had to get out of PHP several years ago. Everything is/was moving to Laravel in PHP land. I got tired of dealing with highly coupled, non-unit testable code that seemed to go out of it's way to ignore SOLID principles. God help us if it this project becomes the normal way of writing http go servers applications. Maybe at that point it's time to become an embedded rust programmer or a monk.
  - sshine 3y ago
    When I studied computer science, I promised myself to never touch PHP again. But PHP has more to give than just as a birthing ground for teenage programmers. When I many years later accepted a PHP job as a senior developer, PHP provided a consistent experience of "bad practice everywhere", a fractal of cringe I couldn't ironically reproduce. Working with this for a year taught me a lot about how to deal with critical legacy software beyond repair and being responsible with what you've got. I think there is no better way to get your hands consistently dirty than with PHP. Coincidence: I do embedded Rust, and my wife is a buddhist monk. ;-)
    - cardanome 3y ago
      Many of my programming jobs in PHP had me working with people that were super anal about "good coding practices". Especially the Symfony guys seem to try to be the new ultra-corporate Java. So I don't think it a issue with the language but more that you didn't find your people. (Personally, I actual like working with legacy crap. It's easy money and reminds me of the past when things were simpler.) I feel most of the PHP community is pretty mature these days. More pragmatic than Rust, sure but that is a good point in my book. Though I am glad you found your enlightenment.
      - lakomen 3y ago
        Symfony was the worst. Holy shit dude. I still have to deal with a legacy Symfony project, which needs to be rewritten because of their... I don't even know what to call it. That stof guy was one of the worst. Inconsistencies, incompatibility. But the dogma was strong. Indeed they wanted to be the Java of PHP. And so inefficient. Imagine duplicating all variables of a request context for dogmas sake. So you can later do Request->getVar() from their own copy. It shows a basic not understanding of the language.

sawirricardo 3y ago

care to elaborate? interested to hear more about your use case back then

spiderfarmer 3y ago
Overly pedantic programmers always have trouble conforming to a framework where compromises are made in ways they can't get behind. For every one of these, there a thousands of programmers who are very successful with the same framework.

mpldr 3y ago

Since this has generated quite some interest, the reasons I dislike Laravel are: - so. many. godobjects. - I dislike ORMs. I could not put my finger on it, while using PHP frameworks, because they were omni-present; but after using Python, Go, and C#, I found it to be easier for me to just avoid the overhead of an ORM. - Terrible structure. Sorting classes by type is something I have experienced to be generally less helpful than sorting by "topic" (not a native speaker, so this might not be the correct word for it. I recently heard it compared to collecting cars, then disassembling them and sorting by tires, steering wheels, seats, and so on) - Too much magic™. I understand that many like this about it, but I found it harder to understand what exactly the program is doing. It's not a lot, but after literally years of PHP and having these paper cuts almost weekly, I was at one point fed up. I first switched to CodeIgniter, which I found more pleasant, but still not even comparable to the comfort that cherry-picking components gets you (yes, you can by using composer, but most people I have spoken to discouraged that in favour of Laravel's built-in fun).

supriyo-biswas 3y ago
I agree Laravel is a bit too much magic, but I’ve found Eloquent to be a top notch ORM. It hasn’t really failed me in any way, so I’d be interested to hear what you specifically disliked about it.
mablopoule 3y ago
While I enjoyed my (small) foray into the world of Laravel, I'm happy to see something other than unabashed praise for Laravel here on HN. A technical decision should be done by weighting it's pros and cons, not just by looking at the pros. Agree on the 'Sorting classes by types', it's something I've always found surprising too, and love the car-collection metaphor.