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> From building codes to systems of labor and construction, everything is designed with the detached single-family home in mind: zoning that bans apartments (an

> From building codes to systems of labor and construction, everything is designed with the detached single-family home in mind: zoning that bans apartments (and density and affordability) over large swaths of urban America; a mortgage, financing, and appraisal system with a long history of inequity and racism; and systems of neighborhood government and community feedback that favor homeowners. Changing this system, from both a cultural and construction perspective, is like “turning around a tanker ship,” Hogan says. This nails it. American “cities” are mostly low-density sprawls where everyone has a useless yard surrounding their home which serves as mostly an aesthetic flourish. But rebuilding American cities with functional parks and high-density housing and everything in walking distance is deeply unpopular because, like most of this, Americans just don’t know what they’re missing because they’ve been sold a dead-end dream.

throwawa14223 3y ago
It isn't just aesthetic. I can't stand living in dense housing because, always knowing there are people nearby takes such a mental toll. I finally live somewhere not at all dense and it is paradise by comparison.
giantrobot 3y ago
> But rebuilding American cities with functional parks and high-density housing and everything in walking distance is deeply unpopular because Because you'd need to bulldoze everyone's existing houses to replace them with the high density housing to be able to use that city space.
- anon291 3y ago
  No you actually do not. My neighborhood is an old late 19th century suburb that slowly urbanized and is now "downtown". A lot of the original housing is still there but now converted to an office building or restaurant with a facade. The only thing stopping this in many modern American suburbs are useless zoning codes. When you mention allowing businesses in subdivisions people act as if you're suggesting a McDonald's and a Walmart instead of a local breakfast shop and cafe and a small salon and a cute general store. But that's really all thats necessary. It takes just a tiny bit to turn a house into a suitable business.
  - Tade0 3y ago
    > as if you're suggesting a McDonald's and a Walmart instead of a local breakfast shop and cafe and a small salon and a cute general store I'd take the McDonald's and Walmart any day over the rest. In fact, I have a McDonald's and several supermarkets(including discount stores) within walking distance. In your vicinity you'd want to have your basic necessities, not businesses catering to those who can afford to buy their breakfast and/or coffee every day.
    - ClumsyPilot 3y ago
      > not businesses catering to those who can afford to buy their breakfast and/or coffee every day. Thats literally what McDonalds is??
      - Tade0 3y ago
        That's a cultural difference I guess. Around here it's where teenagers congregate as their first stop when hanging out. I mean, there's even a haircut named after this phenomenon (the "meet me at McDonald's").
        ClumsyPilot 3y ago
        I understand that, but I am not sure we should discriminate based on the class of the customer base.
    - bandyaboot 3y ago
      The existence of a local cafe doesn’t require that everyone go there every day.
      - onlyrealcuzzo 3y ago
        It also doesn't require that eating there is prohibitively expensive.
      - Tade0 3y ago
- NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
  Maybe the problem is that we just don't go far enough in the high density thing. What if we all got to sleep in tiny pods 80cm wide and 100cm tall, and we hot-bunked so that in any given 8 hour shift, someone else would be sleeping in our pods. We wouldn't even need cafeterias, there could just be a bugmeal extrusion port inside these pods. When you were in the pod during your 8 hour turn, you'd either be at work for 8 hours, or keeping physically fit on the federally mandated fitness treadmills. We wouldn't even need streets at that point, because where would there be to go? While we might not be able to implement this utopia immediately, it's something that all liberal progressive people should be striving for.
  - thriftwy 3y ago
    You have described many plausible things, from how life is like on a submarine, to Ivan Efremov's future utopia.
applied_heat 3y ago
Dunno man, not hearing my neighbors conversations is quite pleasant. Being able to set my daughter down on a blanket in the grass under a tree while we bbq and make dinner is worth more than aesthetic flourish, although the garden is a constant source of pleasure from March when the crocuses bloom to October when the Dahlia’s finally succumb to the frost.
- ddlutz 3y ago
  For real, having shared walls is such a detriment to mental health having to hear conversations, music, tv, people taking stairs, it's never quiet. Having your own private yard to have bbqs, play with dogs, etc also sounds amazing.
  - avastmick 3y ago
    Isn’t this a building quality concern rather than a concern of building location and style? I live in a townhouse with shared walls on both sides and we never hear our neighbours. I’ve asked them if they hear us (we have teenagers) and one said never, the other said sometimes an occasional thud (teenagers wrestling). Similarly we have a private outdoor space or deck and a shared open area. Both are great and well designed. I think it can be done well. I know too that often it is not.
    - greiskul 3y ago
      Yeah, I live in an apartment building. When I met my neighbor for the first time, she apologized for the noise her kid made. The walls here are of such a good quality, that I didn't even know she had a kid. Can't hear a thing.
  - Two4 3y ago
    I concur with the other reply to your comment - Americans (I assume you're American) have a love affair with drywalling and timber framing that astounds me. It seems like it's a recipe for poor soundproofing and massive fire hazard.
  - dalke 3y ago
thayne 3y ago
> useless yard My yard is definitely not useless. It is a safe place for my kids to play. It allows my family to garden. I grow fruits and vegetables. I can entertain guests outdoors in a relatively private space. I have space to hang up a hammock. Sure maybe for some people it is useless, but for a lot of other people, it isn't. > But rebuilding American cities The fact that you have to rebuild the city is a pretty big drawback too... > high-density housing This implies a high density of people. Some people, myself included, don't like to be around a lot of people. Functional parks and everything being within walking distance wouldn't be worth dealing with crowds of people to me.
- eesmith 3y ago
  I understand you are content in the way you do things. Just bear in mind that people elsewhere also want the same goals you have, and are happy with different ways to get those goals. You want a safe place for my kids to play. I agree! Many people want that. Your solution is a yard, which you need to maintain, or pay someone to maintain. Others live in housing complex with plenty of yard space, or live close by to parks, where someone else takes care of the grounds. You don't want to deal with crowds, so you don't care if you don't live within walking distance of functional parks in the like. But this also means you're going to be driving your kids around a lot, since they can't walk to the park, or go to school, by themselves. (Even if they take the bus, they are stuck with a specific schedule, giving the less independence of movement.) Which may be fine - I can understand how being in a car for a long time can be more calming for some than being around people for a short time! You like to garden. Some housing complexes have community gardens, because their residents like to garden too. And there are community gardens which, at least in some places have space allotted by city (similar to how public parks work) so don't directly face market pressure and land rentals. I've certainly been in apartment buildings with relatively private outside space where residents could entertain others, play with kids, read a book, work from home, and so on. And with its own private swimming pool, tennis courts, playgrounds, and so on. I've visited https://www.cotaticohousing.org/ https://www.cotaticohousing.org/ , with "cooperative living that combines private residences with extensive common facilities". They have a shared carpentry shop, eating/party area, and two spare guest apartments which can be booked for visitors. My meaning is that there are many ways to get the goals you want, without the specific method you prefer. Others in the US don't have the same crowd concerns you have. Yet for most part, they don't have the ability to live anywhere else, or have any experience to know what those alternatives might be! > The fact that you have to rebuild the city is a pretty big drawback too... If only you were around in the mid-20th century when the urban core of many US cities were torn down to rebuild for cars - maybe we would have more options now. But I guess your point is that since they made a bad decision then we can't change our minds now? > This implies a high density of people. It can also imply a medium density of people.

throwawa14223 3y ago

It isn't just aesthetic. I can't stand living in dense housing because, always knowing there are people nearby takes such a mental toll. I finally live somewhere not at all dense and it is paradise by comparison.

giantrobot 3y ago

> But rebuilding American cities with functional parks and high-density housing and everything in walking distance is deeply unpopular because Because you'd need to bulldoze everyone's existing houses to replace them with the high density housing to be able to use that city space.

anon291 3y ago
No you actually do not. My neighborhood is an old late 19th century suburb that slowly urbanized and is now "downtown". A lot of the original housing is still there but now converted to an office building or restaurant with a facade. The only thing stopping this in many modern American suburbs are useless zoning codes. When you mention allowing businesses in subdivisions people act as if you're suggesting a McDonald's and a Walmart instead of a local breakfast shop and cafe and a small salon and a cute general store. But that's really all thats necessary. It takes just a tiny bit to turn a house into a suitable business.
- Tade0 3y ago
  > as if you're suggesting a McDonald's and a Walmart instead of a local breakfast shop and cafe and a small salon and a cute general store I'd take the McDonald's and Walmart any day over the rest. In fact, I have a McDonald's and several supermarkets(including discount stores) within walking distance. In your vicinity you'd want to have your basic necessities, not businesses catering to those who can afford to buy their breakfast and/or coffee every day.
  - ClumsyPilot 3y ago
    > not businesses catering to those who can afford to buy their breakfast and/or coffee every day. Thats literally what McDonalds is??
    - Tade0 3y ago
      That's a cultural difference I guess. Around here it's where teenagers congregate as their first stop when hanging out. I mean, there's even a haircut named after this phenomenon (the "meet me at McDonald's").
      - ClumsyPilot 3y ago
        I understand that, but I am not sure we should discriminate based on the class of the customer base.
  - bandyaboot 3y ago
    The existence of a local cafe doesn’t require that everyone go there every day.
    - onlyrealcuzzo 3y ago
      It also doesn't require that eating there is prohibitively expensive.
    - Tade0 3y ago
NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
Maybe the problem is that we just don't go far enough in the high density thing. What if we all got to sleep in tiny pods 80cm wide and 100cm tall, and we hot-bunked so that in any given 8 hour shift, someone else would be sleeping in our pods. We wouldn't even need cafeterias, there could just be a bugmeal extrusion port inside these pods. When you were in the pod during your 8 hour turn, you'd either be at work for 8 hours, or keeping physically fit on the federally mandated fitness treadmills. We wouldn't even need streets at that point, because where would there be to go? While we might not be able to implement this utopia immediately, it's something that all liberal progressive people should be striving for.
- thriftwy 3y ago
  You have described many plausible things, from how life is like on a submarine, to Ivan Efremov's future utopia.

applied_heat 3y ago

Dunno man, not hearing my neighbors conversations is quite pleasant. Being able to set my daughter down on a blanket in the grass under a tree while we bbq and make dinner is worth more than aesthetic flourish, although the garden is a constant source of pleasure from March when the crocuses bloom to October when the Dahlia’s finally succumb to the frost.

ddlutz 3y ago
For real, having shared walls is such a detriment to mental health having to hear conversations, music, tv, people taking stairs, it's never quiet. Having your own private yard to have bbqs, play with dogs, etc also sounds amazing.
- avastmick 3y ago
  Isn’t this a building quality concern rather than a concern of building location and style? I live in a townhouse with shared walls on both sides and we never hear our neighbours. I’ve asked them if they hear us (we have teenagers) and one said never, the other said sometimes an occasional thud (teenagers wrestling). Similarly we have a private outdoor space or deck and a shared open area. Both are great and well designed. I think it can be done well. I know too that often it is not.
  - greiskul 3y ago
    Yeah, I live in an apartment building. When I met my neighbor for the first time, she apologized for the noise her kid made. The walls here are of such a good quality, that I didn't even know she had a kid. Can't hear a thing.
- Two4 3y ago
  I concur with the other reply to your comment - Americans (I assume you're American) have a love affair with drywalling and timber framing that astounds me. It seems like it's a recipe for poor soundproofing and massive fire hazard.
- dalke 3y ago

thayne 3y ago

> useless yard My yard is definitely not useless. It is a safe place for my kids to play. It allows my family to garden. I grow fruits and vegetables. I can entertain guests outdoors in a relatively private space. I have space to hang up a hammock. Sure maybe for some people it is useless, but for a lot of other people, it isn't. > But rebuilding American cities The fact that you have to rebuild the city is a pretty big drawback too... > high-density housing This implies a high density of people. Some people, myself included, don't like to be around a lot of people. Functional parks and everything being within walking distance wouldn't be worth dealing with crowds of people to me.

eesmith 3y ago
I understand you are content in the way you do things. Just bear in mind that people elsewhere also want the same goals you have, and are happy with different ways to get those goals. You want a safe place for my kids to play. I agree! Many people want that. Your solution is a yard, which you need to maintain, or pay someone to maintain. Others live in housing complex with plenty of yard space, or live close by to parks, where someone else takes care of the grounds. You don't want to deal with crowds, so you don't care if you don't live within walking distance of functional parks in the like. But this also means you're going to be driving your kids around a lot, since they can't walk to the park, or go to school, by themselves. (Even if they take the bus, they are stuck with a specific schedule, giving the less independence of movement.) Which may be fine - I can understand how being in a car for a long time can be more calming for some than being around people for a short time! You like to garden. Some housing complexes have community gardens, because their residents like to garden too. And there are community gardens which, at least in some places have space allotted by city (similar to how public parks work) so don't directly face market pressure and land rentals. I've certainly been in apartment buildings with relatively private outside space where residents could entertain others, play with kids, read a book, work from home, and so on. And with its own private swimming pool, tennis courts, playgrounds, and so on. I've visited https://www.cotaticohousing.org/ https://www.cotaticohousing.org/ , with "cooperative living that combines private residences with extensive common facilities". They have a shared carpentry shop, eating/party area, and two spare guest apartments which can be booked for visitors. My meaning is that there are many ways to get the goals you want, without the specific method you prefer. Others in the US don't have the same crowd concerns you have. Yet for most part, they don't have the ability to live anywhere else, or have any experience to know what those alternatives might be! > The fact that you have to rebuild the city is a pretty big drawback too... If only you were around in the mid-20th century when the urban core of many US cities were torn down to rebuild for cars - maybe we would have more options now. But I guess your point is that since they made a bad decision then we can't change our minds now? > This implies a high density of people. It can also imply a medium density of people.