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While I somewhat agree with the premise of this post, I think it is exacerbated by the fact that the author was trying to turn something like fiction writing in

While I somewhat agree with the premise of this post, I think it is exacerbated by the fact that the author was trying to turn something like fiction writing into a business. When I think of businesses that suck in terms of economics and chances of success, fiction writing is one of the first things that come to mind. In general, you like things more when they make you a lot of money. A lot of fun things suck when you don't make money...

gymbeaux 3y ago
I think you have it reversed, a lot of fun things suck when they make you money.
- JimtheCoder 3y ago
  "a lot of fun things suck when they make you money" That has not been my experience...they become more fun.
  - tcbawo 3y ago
    Needing to extract money to live from hobbies that don’t pay is stressful and awful. If your hobby does that easily, good on you. Having agency — money to live and freedom/time to indulge in hobbies is the ideal.
  - milesvp 3y ago
    There seems to be a virtuous cycle with making money doing something, where you learn to be passionate for things because they make money. The opposite seems to happen with passion projects trying to make money, and I wonder if it comes down to reality vs expecations and being on the wrong side of dissappointment. “I can’t believe what people are willing to pay for this” can be either a positive or negative statement depening on what you value.
    - bobthepanda 3y ago
      I would say that the issue is really one of time. A lot of hobbies are leisurely, but running a business, meeting customer deadlines requires time management, and it doesn’t help that a lot of hobbies are labor intensive. There is a difference between knitting a scarf for a Christmas gift and making enough scarves, all the time, so that you can afford the roof over your head. And even more so if you have clients anxious about timelines.
  - chongli 3y ago
    It depends on your personality and your motivations. If you're intrinsically motivated to practice your hobby, you may not want extrinsic motivators. On the other hand, if you're naturally a business/entrepreneurial type who is extrinsically motivated (motivated by money), then yeah you may really enjoy turning your hobbies into businesses. I think it's unusual though. Hobbyists in general seem to be intrinsically motivated by their interest in the hobby itself. I know I personally am not motivated by money at all, seeing it as a necessary evil to survive in this competitive society. My goal is to earn enough money to have a stable and secure lifestyle, with enough free time to pursue my hobbies.
  - BaseballPhysics 3y ago
    You're an outlier. Studies have shown repeatedly that monetary compensation undermines intrinsic motivation: https://hbr.org/2013/04/does-money-really-affect-motiv https://hbr.org/2013/04/does-money-really-affect-motiv > The authors synthesized the results from 128 controlled experiments. The results highlighted consistent negative effects of incentives — from marshmallows to dollars — on intrinsic motivation. These effects were particularly strong when the tasks were interesting or enjoyable rather than boring or meaningless.
    - satellite2 3y ago
      Yes but no. It's always with disappointing rewards tgat those studies are done. Pay people considerable amount and then compare.
      - HWR_14 3y ago
        That's a different question. People like money. People may like the activity and the money combined more than just the activity. But the studies show that they like it less than the activity and the money not tied to one another. If Bezos wrote me a large enough check to never participate in specific hobbies again, I would take him up on it. I would be happier than before I took the offer. But I would clearly be even happier with a check that wasn't tied to ruining a hobby.
        marcianx 3y ago
        I don't take it that way, and I'm deeply fortunate to be living the life suggested by GP. If I get to do what I'm passionate about even if it includes the closely-related grungy part to make it successful (not an altogether different job like marketing) and I am paid enough money to not have to worry about my daily needs and retirement savings, then I have a chance to spend a solid part of my productive day on it, engaging deeply, and building a deeper intuition, all the while not having the personal worries of stability at the back of my mind. My passion no longer needs to compete with my work for my mental energy. And I get to work with talented people who complement my skill, doing the part they enjoy and I don't, to make what we collectively build successful. That being said, I'm a software engineer, and that's a really fortunate occupation to be passionate above due to the breadth of its applicability (e.g. allowing one to work more closely on my topic of interest) and salary potential.
  - gymbeaux 3y ago
    I get a dopamine hit when I make money because of a hobby, but for me it just continues to "develop" until it stresses me out. I don't realize I have crossed the threshold from "fun" to "stressful" until way after it happens.
- slowmovintarget 3y ago
  How about this formulation: "A lot of fun things end up sucking when you expect them to also make you money."
  - Robotbeat 3y ago
    "A lot of fun things end up sucking when you expect them to also make you money …but then don’t. So you are forced to do sort of related unfun things instead that make a little bit of money for a lot of work.”
    - ngshiheng 3y ago
      This hits closer to home
  - gymbeaux 3y ago
    Yeah, that's a clearer way of saying it
- vitro 3y ago
  ..when they _have to_ make you money. I play a musical instrument for a long long time, nowhere as good as a very good players, but sometimes I get a small paid gig and it is actually a fun thing to do. My life doesn't depend on the income from playing so I just enjoy opportunities when they come and go.
  - htss2013 3y ago
    Yes, exactly. It's not that adding money to your hobby per se makes you not enjoy it. It's that when you have to make money from a hobby, you lose agency over how you practice the hobby. It turns out the freedom to practice the hobby how/when/where you want, isn't just a nice to have, but an essential part of why you enjoyed the hobby in the first place. You might enjoy being with your wife, but if she controlled every aspect of how you were allowed to, or must, engage with her, on pain of starvation and homelessness, you probably wouldn't enjoy her anymore. You'd resent her as a slave resents his master, even if she is a relatively good master. Agency is essential to enjoyment of literally anything.
urbandw311er 3y ago
But the author did make money?! So I’m not sure your final paragraph really represents an appropriate response. The author made money, but they were unhappy because they weren’t doing something they enjoyed.
- input_sh 3y ago
  > And yet, in spite of my passionate “passion”, I never made enough money to quit the day job.

gymbeaux 3y ago

I think you have it reversed, a lot of fun things suck when they make you money.

JimtheCoder 3y ago
"a lot of fun things suck when they make you money" That has not been my experience...they become more fun.
- tcbawo 3y ago
  Needing to extract money to live from hobbies that don’t pay is stressful and awful. If your hobby does that easily, good on you. Having agency — money to live and freedom/time to indulge in hobbies is the ideal.
- milesvp 3y ago
  There seems to be a virtuous cycle with making money doing something, where you learn to be passionate for things because they make money. The opposite seems to happen with passion projects trying to make money, and I wonder if it comes down to reality vs expecations and being on the wrong side of dissappointment. “I can’t believe what people are willing to pay for this” can be either a positive or negative statement depening on what you value.
  - bobthepanda 3y ago
    I would say that the issue is really one of time. A lot of hobbies are leisurely, but running a business, meeting customer deadlines requires time management, and it doesn’t help that a lot of hobbies are labor intensive. There is a difference between knitting a scarf for a Christmas gift and making enough scarves, all the time, so that you can afford the roof over your head. And even more so if you have clients anxious about timelines.
- chongli 3y ago
  It depends on your personality and your motivations. If you're intrinsically motivated to practice your hobby, you may not want extrinsic motivators. On the other hand, if you're naturally a business/entrepreneurial type who is extrinsically motivated (motivated by money), then yeah you may really enjoy turning your hobbies into businesses. I think it's unusual though. Hobbyists in general seem to be intrinsically motivated by their interest in the hobby itself. I know I personally am not motivated by money at all, seeing it as a necessary evil to survive in this competitive society. My goal is to earn enough money to have a stable and secure lifestyle, with enough free time to pursue my hobbies.
- BaseballPhysics 3y ago
  You're an outlier. Studies have shown repeatedly that monetary compensation undermines intrinsic motivation: https://hbr.org/2013/04/does-money-really-affect-motiv https://hbr.org/2013/04/does-money-really-affect-motiv > The authors synthesized the results from 128 controlled experiments. The results highlighted consistent negative effects of incentives — from marshmallows to dollars — on intrinsic motivation. These effects were particularly strong when the tasks were interesting or enjoyable rather than boring or meaningless.
  - satellite2 3y ago
    Yes but no. It's always with disappointing rewards tgat those studies are done. Pay people considerable amount and then compare.
    - HWR_14 3y ago
      That's a different question. People like money. People may like the activity and the money combined more than just the activity. But the studies show that they like it less than the activity and the money not tied to one another. If Bezos wrote me a large enough check to never participate in specific hobbies again, I would take him up on it. I would be happier than before I took the offer. But I would clearly be even happier with a check that wasn't tied to ruining a hobby.
      - marcianx 3y ago
        I don't take it that way, and I'm deeply fortunate to be living the life suggested by GP. If I get to do what I'm passionate about even if it includes the closely-related grungy part to make it successful (not an altogether different job like marketing) and I am paid enough money to not have to worry about my daily needs and retirement savings, then I have a chance to spend a solid part of my productive day on it, engaging deeply, and building a deeper intuition, all the while not having the personal worries of stability at the back of my mind. My passion no longer needs to compete with my work for my mental energy. And I get to work with talented people who complement my skill, doing the part they enjoy and I don't, to make what we collectively build successful. That being said, I'm a software engineer, and that's a really fortunate occupation to be passionate above due to the breadth of its applicability (e.g. allowing one to work more closely on my topic of interest) and salary potential.
- gymbeaux 3y ago
  I get a dopamine hit when I make money because of a hobby, but for me it just continues to "develop" until it stresses me out. I don't realize I have crossed the threshold from "fun" to "stressful" until way after it happens.
slowmovintarget 3y ago
How about this formulation: "A lot of fun things end up sucking when you expect them to also make you money."
- Robotbeat 3y ago
  "A lot of fun things end up sucking when you expect them to also make you money …but then don’t. So you are forced to do sort of related unfun things instead that make a little bit of money for a lot of work.”
  - ngshiheng 3y ago
    This hits closer to home
- gymbeaux 3y ago
  Yeah, that's a clearer way of saying it
vitro 3y ago
..when they _have to_ make you money. I play a musical instrument for a long long time, nowhere as good as a very good players, but sometimes I get a small paid gig and it is actually a fun thing to do. My life doesn't depend on the income from playing so I just enjoy opportunities when they come and go.
- htss2013 3y ago
  Yes, exactly. It's not that adding money to your hobby per se makes you not enjoy it. It's that when you have to make money from a hobby, you lose agency over how you practice the hobby. It turns out the freedom to practice the hobby how/when/where you want, isn't just a nice to have, but an essential part of why you enjoyed the hobby in the first place. You might enjoy being with your wife, but if she controlled every aspect of how you were allowed to, or must, engage with her, on pain of starvation and homelessness, you probably wouldn't enjoy her anymore. You'd resent her as a slave resents his master, even if she is a relatively good master. Agency is essential to enjoyment of literally anything.

urbandw311er 3y ago

But the author did make money?! So I’m not sure your final paragraph really represents an appropriate response. The author made money, but they were unhappy because they weren’t doing something they enjoyed.

input_sh 3y ago
> And yet, in spite of my passionate “passion”, I never made enough money to quit the day job.