8 ms·

What HN users don't mean to be

442 points by pg 15y ago

donohoe 15y ago
I don't mean to be in the first page of results, but I couldn't help it
petercooper 15y ago
A couple of years ago, we discussed pg's use of "it turns out" here on HN. It turns out a lot of people enjoy the phrase still :-) http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/comments&q=%22it+turns+out%22&sortby=create_ts+desc http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/comments&q=%22it+... And the old discussion for context: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1162965 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1162965
- msutherl 15y ago
  Douglas Adams' final, and posthumously finished and published book, The Salmon of Doubt, discusses in depth the great utility of the phrase "it turns out".
keyshie777 15y ago
Most of them don't mean to be rude. But still, they are.
endtwist 15y ago
From a cursory look, it seems like the most common (in order of frequency) are: 1. Rude 2. Pedantic 3. Snarky 4. Negative 5. An ass 6. A downer 7. A jerk I'd love for someone to actually analyze the results and get the numbers, though.
- stevenspasbo 15y ago
  I'm writing a ruby script right now, I'll post it if I can finish it before I leave the house.
  - bootload 15y ago
    possible to add karma & created? Might be interesting to see if there's a relationship b/w users.
- AznHisoka 15y ago
  usually when people say they don't mean to be a jerk, they're being a jerk. not intentional.. but the person will think you're a jerk, so it's basically the same effect, just that you'll feel better.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- dhx 15y ago
  To anyone currently developing scripts to analyse comments on HN, please also consider use of unqualified opinions presented as fact. Statements such as "most", "a lot", "many" and "no one" fall into this category as per [1]. It would be interesting to whether a relationship exists between karma and excessive use of "most", "a lot", etc. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_vie...
  - zackattack 15y ago
    Dude I honestly dream of some real time text parsing that seriously adds value to the quality of the conversation and moment. One of my goals is to make this for CompassionPit but I'd much rather get a killer solution from a 3rd party. I'd definitely pay for it too -- definitely at least $100/month.
stevenspasbo 15y ago
"I don't mean to be curt, but what's the point of this?" ;)
- Alex3917 15y ago
  A) Demonstrates that HN now has a working search engine B) It's art. It prods you into realizing new stuff about yourself and the world around you. Start realizing.
  - stevenspasbo 15y ago
    I put it in quotes because it was the first result I saw on the page
- srbravo1 15y ago
  I dont mean to be rude here but you should start realizing point (a) and (b)...
  - srbravo1 15y ago
    Ha, sorry bad joke
Herring 15y ago
When someone says "but", it usually means "Ignore everything I said before the but." It’s like "No offense".
- zalew 15y ago
  don't be mad, but...
- Mithrandir 15y ago
  I wrote about this a couple months ago (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3469792 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3469792) and it's generally true, but as thebigshane pointed out (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3472993 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3472993), it doesn't always apply. Definitely good to keep in mind though
- kalid 15y ago
  Sometimes. I think it shows the person has enough empathy to realize what they're saying could be hurtful. I see it as making a point which isn't meant to be taken personally (and a signal the person is willing to engage in a discussion, not an argument). That said, it doesn't really apply for statements like "I don't mean to be rude, but you're an <ethnic slur>".
- lotharbot 15y ago
  Sometimes it demonstrates that a person is just trying to soften the blow from a rude or insulting statement, but at other times it demonstrates that they hold a complex view which is most clearly explained by describing its limits or contrasting it to other views.
- tep 15y ago
  "that being said" is often used synonymously for that kind of "but": http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22that+being+said%22 http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22that+bei...
ktizo 15y ago
..first, let me point out, I do mean to be cynical. ;p
thekungfuman 15y ago
I don't mean to be meta, but this comment now appears in this article.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- digitalsushi 15y ago
  http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22probably+be+downvoted%22&start=0 http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22probably...
  - thekungfuman 15y ago
    It was faux-clever enough that I decided to take the risk. :-)
kevinpacheco 15y ago
Similar results here: http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22I+hate+to+be%22&start=0 http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22I+hate+t... The proper response to most of these statements is, of course, "So don't."
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
mattdeboard 15y ago
Surprisingly there are more results for "viagra" than "autodidact"
- redthrowaway 15y ago
  Not surprising in the least. Turn showdead on, then have a look at the new queue.
davyjones 15y ago
Has happened to me more than once when my comments online have been construed as hostile when I never had the intent. Especially on this medium, where one's face and vocal tone cannot be communicated, I think such disclaimers are necessary (evil?). Also, there is the "Be civil" HN doctrine. So there.
tokenadult 15y ago
Comments asking for sources may be catching on. http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/comments&q=%22citation+needed%22&sortby=create_ts+desc http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/comments&q=%22cit... After edit: I recall the brilliant use of "can be shortened to" in this example from the HN Guidelines: "When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. E.g. 'That is an idiotic thing to say; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3' can be shortened to '1 + 1 is 2, not 3.'" http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Similarly, a comment that begins with "I don't mean to be [X]" can be shortened to making the statement that follows the "but" in that sentence, probably for better rhetorical effect and persuasive power, especially if the statement is actually based on a reliable source mentioned in the comment.
chrisacky 15y ago
This is pretty awesome. Is this going to be included in the main HN pages?
- notatoad 15y ago
  you mean the search tool? scroll down to the bottom.
  - chrisacky 15y ago
    I guess that's what happens when you are relatively new to HN, you miss the blindingly obviousness. (Could also be down to subconscious blindness I guess - It's not often if ever, that you see a search box in the footer).
ChuckMcM 15y ago
And the other one: http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22that+being+said%22&start=0 http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22that+bei... Interesting take on linguistic analysis.
benwerd 15y ago
Related: questions that have been begged: http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22begs+the+question%22&start=0 http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22begs+the... (Features pedantry and inexplicably purple microbes.)
scottkrager 15y ago
"to be honest" One of my pet peeves...are you usually not honest with me? http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22to+be+honest%22&start=0 http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22to+be+ho...
- cpeterso 15y ago
  Would you believe me if I said yes? :)
- pgroves 15y ago
  I resisted posting my pet peeve because it's not really the point of the OP, but now I can't help it. Let me explain... http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22let+me+explain%22&start=0 http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22let+me+e... The fact that there is more text in a comment let's the reader know more explainin' is on the way. No need to point out that you're about to elaborate. Are people worried we'll get to the end of their paragraph and not know if the next paragraph is related?
  - cubix 15y ago
    It makes sense in face-to-face interactions, particularly when addressing are group. Sometimes, if you say something controversial, people will respond dismissively before you've had a chance to justify yourself. "Let me explain" is used as a way to reclaim the floor, so to speak. For better or worse, people are transferring this pattern to written language as stylistic device.
- cperciva 15y ago
  I think "to be honest" is a euphemism for "to be blunt". To the extent that people usually politely self-censor, yes, they're usually not being honest with you.
  - bhrgunatha 15y ago
    I agree, I prefer "to be frank" as I think it avoids the misunderstanding.
ElbertF 15y ago
HN users that hate to be "that guy": http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22to+be+that+guy%22&start=0 http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22to+be+th...
andrewhillman 15y ago
I think this shows that HN users are careful w/ words because they don't want come off negative and be down voted.
shingen 15y ago
I don't mean to be speculative, but I think it's always the "but" in the opening sentence that is really interesting.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
DarkShikari 15y ago
It's an old rule that whenever someone says "I'm not racist, but", they are practically always about to say something incredibly racist. I think this can be generalized to all forms of "I'm not X, but" or, "I don't mean to be X, but", and so forth. "No offense, but, <offensive thing>" seems to also be a common variation. Is there a word for this kind of linguistic construct? ( Possibly related: http://www.notracistbut.com/ http://www.notracistbut.com/ )
- jacobolus 15y ago
  I think your analysis is too glib here. [And since PG seems to be implying the same thing, that goes for him too.] It’s typically a way of expressing anger/displeasure/etc. without turning the comment into a personal insult. If I say “I don’t mean to be rude, but you made a grammatical mistake”, or “I don’t mean to be harsh, but your idea doesn’t make sense” what I mean in the former case is something like “anyone could make that mistake, please don’t take it personally, but I figured you’d like to know”, or in the latter case, “you need to clarify your idea, because you’re losing your audience; I don’t want to imply it doesn’t have any merit, but as currently explained the merit doesn’t shine through”. Being able to make quick softening caveats without taking up a paragraph is very useful, and our language is more nuanced and powerful for having these constructions.
  - cyoste 15y ago
    My problem with this softening caveat is that the speaker acknowledges that he will present his argument in a way that will offend/sound rude/make him look like a jerk. Instead of priming my listener for thinking I'm rude/a jerk/etc. through admitting that I am, I'll just think of another way to gently criticize. Playing to one's emotions is all about being convincing, and "I don't mean to be..." is an unconvincing phrase.
    - ewb 15y ago
      It's a way to convey tone through text. Sometimes the same comment can be taken in either a rude or a helping way, and prefacing it with "I don't mean to be rude" is a way of saying "please take this in the helping way." When talking in person you can infer this through how they say it, but in anonymous text on the internet the disclaimer is helpful.
staunch 15y ago
I assume this is related to PG's disappointment with HN'ers ragging on companies when they first launch.
- primigenus 15y ago
  Why do you have to assume that? Can't it just be that PG was talking to someone, this came up, he wondered what the results would be, did the search, and thought it was interesting enough to share? You know, like any hacker probably would?
  - staunch 15y ago
    Perfectly possible. Just seemed to coincide with this post: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3658797 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3658797
overcyn 15y ago
I don't see anything wrong with this. There are a lot of posts on HN are looking for feedback, and criticism can very easily be mistaken for aggressiveness. Sure rudeness is rudeness but prepending "I don't mean to be..." in front of your sentences don't make it so.
primigenus 15y ago
I used to start sentences with "No offense, but..." when I felt I was going to say something controversial until a coworker pointed out that the only reason what I was saying was controversial was because I prefaced it with "No offense, but...". So now I don't say that anymore. I just say what I mean and people aren't as likely to be offended.
thought_alarm 15y ago
The earliest use of "sheeple" was from user "stcredzero" almost 4 1/2 years, in a comment that, unsurprisingly, mentions John C. Dvorak. http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=sheeple&sortby=create_ts+desc&start=90 http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=sheeple&#38... Gosh, this is a terrific resource. It's almost as much fun as Google's Usenet archive, back when it actually used to work.
- jacobolus 15y ago
  The earliest use of “sheeple” was decades ago: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheeple http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheeple
  - Mavyrk 15y ago
    When reading his comment it was apparent to me that he was speaking in context to the matter at hand (delving into hnsearch.)
- PakG1 15y ago
  Had to do it. :) http://xkcd.com/1013/ http://xkcd.com/1013/
J3L2404 15y ago
The eloquent being so obtuse.
molecule 15y ago
357 things HN users are "just sayin" http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22just+sayin%22&start=0 http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22just+say...
- joejohnson 15y ago
  And your comment is 358!
bicknergseng 15y ago
Amazing how this thread took over the whole first page of results from that search. There's a few things that are interesting about this whole thing though. First, that HN's users are this good. Many other communities across the web eventually degrade into a news entertainment troll parties, sometimes needing to be removed in order to preserve some kind of dignity on the mother site. I'm sure there are worst things said here, but they are very much the exception. The phrase itself also got me thinking about how people express things on the web. I imagine the majority of comments with that phrase have some malicious intent, but there is also the possibility that whatever idea the user is trying to convey is something not easily expressed in text through the internet impersonally. For example, a conversation on racial stereotypes will inherently have racist undertones, but it is entirely possible that people want to discuss it genuinely without meaning to offend people. Part of the problem is that it's very difficult to communicate things like sincerity, empathy, etc. via plaintext. Another part of the problem is that people are very...willing...to be offended... though I haven't decided how much of a role the internet plays from this angle. One takeaway: if you aren't meaning to offend people, choose better words on the internet. It's likely the easiest way of saying something is offensive and will offend.
thaumaturgy 15y ago
Well, "rude" is the clear winner, with 54 occurrences (and one "intentionally rude"). Runners-up: harsh 21 ("overly harsh": 2; "too harsh: 1) negative 13 ("unduly negative": 1; "completely negative": 1; "overly negative": 2; "negative Nancy": 2; "too negative": 2; "totally negative": 2; "intentionally negative": 1) snarky 12 overly critical 11 ("too critical": 3; "critical": 3) Other common phrases: an ass 8 pedantic 8 argumentative 8 insulting 6 a downer 6 ("(a) Debbie Downer": 2; "down": 1) dismissive 6 flippant 6 ("flip": 3) offensive 7 ("blatantly offensive": 1) cynical 5 ("overly cynical": 1) condescending 5 glib 5 a jerk 5 mean 4 pessimistic 4 ("overly pessimistic": 1) that guy 4 crass 3 curt 3 a hater 3 disrespectful 3 patronizing 3 presumptuous 3 nit-picky / nitpicky 3 Terms that were only used twice: obnoxious, picky, insensitive ("culturally insensitive": 1), discouraging, crude, impolite, preachy, a tease, adversarial, coy. HN has quite the vocabulary. There's a long tail of single occurrences: meta (ed: ha-ha), naive, cheeky, shortsighted, dumb, hasty, racist (ed: surprising!), stuffy, demeaning, snide, dense, nasty, personal, unhelpful, contrary, contentious, fanboyish, cold, doom-and-gloom, frivolous, facile, accusatory, callous, lame, inflammatory, hating, ironic, skeptical, trolling, trollish, patronizing, spiteful, sexist, disagreeable, controversial, simple, overly reductionist, hard on Aussies (ed: chuckle), antagonistic, off-topic, crabby, crude, derogative (ed: think they meant derogatory), passing absolute judgement, an idiot, an alarmist, an insensitive dick, a curmudgeon, an HN curmudgeon, a troll, a jackass, a tweak, a word Nazi (ed: surely not), a grumpy gus, a dick, a total dick, a stickler, a hardass, a killjoy, a huge downer, a turd, a burden, the grumpy skeptic ... ...and my personal favorite: "the next snarky Lisp guy in the room". There were about 7 other things roughly fitting the pattern here, but not quite within the spirit of the rest: e.g., "trashing Ballmer", or "overly favorable towards Google". Quoted text was ignored where possible; instances of "or", as in, "insensitive or rude", counted as a point for each, except for "or anything", which was ignored. Terms were very lightly massaged, for example, "so callous" would have counted simply as "callous".
joejohnson 15y ago
What HN users are: http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22I+am%22&sortby=create_ts+asc&start=0 http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22I+am%22&...
DanielBMarkham 15y ago
"I don't mean to be" easily translates into "There's a hell of a long conversation here, with a lot of qualifiers, but frankly I don't have the time for it. Instead I'm just going to offer some generalization that you can easily throw rocks at. I know that you will, and now I'm telling you to have fun with it." So if I say "I don't mean to be old grumpy guy" that means that what comes out of my mouth next will be a generalization and summary of my feelings that I fully know for all intents and purposes sounds like old grumpy guy. Sorry, can't be helped. That's the way the summary looks. Most of the time people do not use such linguistic qualifiers out of some desire for self-protection or having some mechanism to inoculate them from some horrible thing that follows. It's simply a shortcut. I always thought this was pretty obvious. I know pg posted this, and it's his site, but is there really something here worthy of this being on the front page? Is this some kind of clever editorial about the quality of the commenting? If so, I don't get it. People are trying to be nice about their criticisms?
- cbs 15y ago
  I think you're onto something here. Its hard to give an honest opinion without sounding like an asshole or whatever you put at the end of "I don't mean to be". Even moreso when you're on HN. Its quick discussion, even though we're all techies we don't have all the domain knowledge and the different cultures here doesn't always approach things from the same standpoint.
- slewis 15y ago
  If you're about to submit a comment containing "I don't mean to be", stop and consider whether what you're submitting adds any value (as defined by the HN guidelines in this case) to the conversation. This is telling: "There's a hell of a long conversation here, with a lot of qualifiers, but frankly I don't have the time for it." If you don't have time to contribute something meaningful why contribute at all? The other problem with "I don't mean to be" is it's fundamentally dishonest. If you don't mean to then why are you doing it? If you must do this, just say "I'm about to be".
  - Dylan16807 15y ago
pg 15y ago
This one produces an interesting list of offenses: http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22far+be+it+from+me%22&sortby=create_ts+asc http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22far+be+i...
- adnam 15y ago
  Brilliant! Reminds me of people saying "at the end of the day", such as in this medley from a UK chat-show (put to music): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlVonUdl3Ag http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlVonUdl3Ag
- Confusion 15y ago
  What do you consider offenses? I don't identify any on the first page of results, so it seems we mean different things.
  - adnam 15y ago
    Cliche.
- davedx 15y ago
  "Far be it from me to tell women how to dress, but most women do not understand the effect they have on men" :D
- rudiger 15y ago
  "It turns out...": http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22it+turns+out%22+by%3Apg&sortby=create_ts+desc http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22it+turns...
anxrn 15y ago
Sorting descending by time makes this a meta post: http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22I+dont+mean+to+be%22&sortby=create_ts+desc http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22I+dont+m... It also makes this comment a meta^2 post.
hc12 15y ago
Here's an interesting one Why you should blog posts http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/submissions&q=why+you+should&start=10 http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/submissions&q=why... I'm sure there are as many how-to's posts.
- rsanchez1 15y ago
  I'd be more interested in "X is broken" posts. A few of those seem to pop up every day.
ricardobeat 15y ago
Related: what HN users don't want to sound like http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/comments&q=%22if+i+sound%22&sortby=create_ts+desc&start=10 http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/comments&q=%22if+...
josiahq 15y ago
HN goes self-referentially meta, and the slow transition to becoming reddit begins...
- abc3 15y ago
  http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22this+isn%27t+reddit%22&sortby=create_ts+asc&start=0 http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22this+isn...
evanlong 15y ago
I don't mean to be rude but was this really necessary :P
dazbradbury 15y ago
Hackers are... http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/comments&q=%22hackers+are%22&sortby=create_ts+desc&start=0 http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/comments&q=%22hac...
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
mwerty 15y ago
"Don't get me wrong." I have to suppress "Then why don't you say it right?"
MortenK 15y ago
Try also "strawman", "ad hominem" and "to be fair".
balsam 15y ago
looks like pg's stumbled upon a way to find smart comments
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
TeMPOraL 15y ago
What HN users hate to say, but still do: http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22hate+to+say+it%22&start=0 http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22hate+to+...
waitwhat 15y ago
I am reminded of the classic "not here to make friends" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w536Alnon24 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w536Alnon24
ck2 15y ago
So this is data mining in that the poster clearly defines what they are about to actually do. In fact you don't even need the "be" part, though it gets more complicated, you could even just analyze "I don't mean to" - whatever follows immediately afterwards characterizes the post? http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22I+don%27t+mean+to%22&sortby=create_ts+asc&start=0 http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22I+don%27...
silentscope 15y ago
clever. and I mean it.
Intermernet 15y ago
Self referential search results re: the phrase "I don't mean to be" coming right up.
rfrey 15y ago
Looking through this was interesting and fun. I'm surprised at some of the comments that posit intent doesn't matter in communication. Intent matters a great deal: a question can be sarcastically rhetorical or earnest, a comment can be blunt-but-helpful or simply meant to hurt, a reply can be a defensive knee-jerk or a clarification of position. It's possible for the same string of words to be either of those alternatives, the choice made only by intent of the writer. In physical communication there are many cues to indicate the intent of the speaker. Writers must provide those cues intentionally. "I don't mean to be" is often (not always) lazy and meaningless, of course, but that doesn't imply intent doesn't matter.

442 points by pg 15y ago

I don't mean to be in the first page of results, but I couldn't help it

A couple of years ago, we discussed pg's use of "it turns out" here on HN. It turns out a lot of people enjoy the phrase still :-) http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/comments&q=%22it+turns+out%22&sortby=create_ts+desc http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/comments&q=%22it+... And the old discussion for context: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1162965 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1162965

msutherl 15y ago
Douglas Adams' final, and posthumously finished and published book, The Salmon of Doubt, discusses in depth the great utility of the phrase "it turns out".

keyshie777 15y ago

Most of them don't mean to be rude. But still, they are.

endtwist 15y ago

From a cursory look, it seems like the most common (in order of frequency) are: 1. Rude 2. Pedantic 3. Snarky 4. Negative 5. An ass 6. A downer 7. A jerk I'd love for someone to actually analyze the results and get the numbers, though.

stevenspasbo 15y ago
I'm writing a ruby script right now, I'll post it if I can finish it before I leave the house.
- bootload 15y ago
  possible to add karma & created? Might be interesting to see if there's a relationship b/w users.
AznHisoka 15y ago
usually when people say they don't mean to be a jerk, they're being a jerk. not intentional.. but the person will think you're a jerk, so it's basically the same effect, just that you'll feel better.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
dhx 15y ago
To anyone currently developing scripts to analyse comments on HN, please also consider use of unqualified opinions presented as fact. Statements such as "most", "a lot", "many" and "no one" fall into this category as per [1]. It would be interesting to whether a relationship exists between karma and excessive use of "most", "a lot", etc. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_vie...
- zackattack 15y ago
  Dude I honestly dream of some real time text parsing that seriously adds value to the quality of the conversation and moment. One of my goals is to make this for CompassionPit but I'd much rather get a killer solution from a 3rd party. I'd definitely pay for it too -- definitely at least $100/month.

stevenspasbo 15y ago

"I don't mean to be curt, but what's the point of this?" ;)

Alex3917 15y ago
A) Demonstrates that HN now has a working search engine B) It's art. It prods you into realizing new stuff about yourself and the world around you. Start realizing.
- stevenspasbo 15y ago
  I put it in quotes because it was the first result I saw on the page
srbravo1 15y ago
I dont mean to be rude here but you should start realizing point (a) and (b)...
- srbravo1 15y ago
  Ha, sorry bad joke

Herring 15y ago

When someone says "but", it usually means "Ignore everything I said before the but." It’s like "No offense".

zalew 15y ago
don't be mad, but...
Mithrandir 15y ago
I wrote about this a couple months ago (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3469792 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3469792) and it's generally true, but as thebigshane pointed out (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3472993 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3472993), it doesn't always apply. Definitely good to keep in mind though
kalid 15y ago
Sometimes. I think it shows the person has enough empathy to realize what they're saying could be hurtful. I see it as making a point which isn't meant to be taken personally (and a signal the person is willing to engage in a discussion, not an argument). That said, it doesn't really apply for statements like "I don't mean to be rude, but you're an <ethnic slur>".
lotharbot 15y ago
Sometimes it demonstrates that a person is just trying to soften the blow from a rude or insulting statement, but at other times it demonstrates that they hold a complex view which is most clearly explained by describing its limits or contrasting it to other views.
tep 15y ago
"that being said" is often used synonymously for that kind of "but": http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22that+being+said%22 http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22that+bei...

ktizo 15y ago

..first, let me point out, I do mean to be cynical. ;p

thekungfuman 15y ago

I don't mean to be meta, but this comment now appears in this article.

deleted 15y ago
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digitalsushi 15y ago
http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22probably+be+downvoted%22&start=0 http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22probably...
- thekungfuman 15y ago
  It was faux-clever enough that I decided to take the risk. :-)

kevinpacheco 15y ago

Similar results here: http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22I+hate+to+be%22&start=0 http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22I+hate+t... The proper response to most of these statements is, of course, "So don't."

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

mattdeboard 15y ago

Surprisingly there are more results for "viagra" than "autodidact"

redthrowaway 15y ago
Not surprising in the least. Turn showdead on, then have a look at the new queue.

davyjones 15y ago

Has happened to me more than once when my comments online have been construed as hostile when I never had the intent. Especially on this medium, where one's face and vocal tone cannot be communicated, I think such disclaimers are necessary (evil?). Also, there is the "Be civil" HN doctrine. So there.

tokenadult 15y ago

Comments asking for sources may be catching on. http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/comments&q=%22citation+needed%22&sortby=create_ts+desc http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/comments&q=%22cit... After edit: I recall the brilliant use of "can be shortened to" in this example from the HN Guidelines: "When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. E.g. 'That is an idiotic thing to say; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3' can be shortened to '1 + 1 is 2, not 3.'" http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Similarly, a comment that begins with "I don't mean to be [X]" can be shortened to making the statement that follows the "but" in that sentence, probably for better rhetorical effect and persuasive power, especially if the statement is actually based on a reliable source mentioned in the comment.

chrisacky 15y ago

This is pretty awesome. Is this going to be included in the main HN pages?

notatoad 15y ago
you mean the search tool? scroll down to the bottom.
- chrisacky 15y ago
  I guess that's what happens when you are relatively new to HN, you miss the blindingly obviousness. (Could also be down to subconscious blindness I guess - It's not often if ever, that you see a search box in the footer).

ChuckMcM 15y ago

And the other one: http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22that+being+said%22&start=0 http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22that+bei... Interesting take on linguistic analysis.

benwerd 15y ago

Related: questions that have been begged: http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22begs+the+question%22&start=0 http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22begs+the... (Features pedantry and inexplicably purple microbes.)

scottkrager 15y ago

"to be honest" One of my pet peeves...are you usually not honest with me? http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22to+be+honest%22&start=0 http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22to+be+ho...

cpeterso 15y ago
Would you believe me if I said yes? :)
pgroves 15y ago
I resisted posting my pet peeve because it's not really the point of the OP, but now I can't help it. Let me explain... http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22let+me+explain%22&start=0 http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22let+me+e... The fact that there is more text in a comment let's the reader know more explainin' is on the way. No need to point out that you're about to elaborate. Are people worried we'll get to the end of their paragraph and not know if the next paragraph is related?
- cubix 15y ago
  It makes sense in face-to-face interactions, particularly when addressing are group. Sometimes, if you say something controversial, people will respond dismissively before you've had a chance to justify yourself. "Let me explain" is used as a way to reclaim the floor, so to speak. For better or worse, people are transferring this pattern to written language as stylistic device.
cperciva 15y ago
I think "to be honest" is a euphemism for "to be blunt". To the extent that people usually politely self-censor, yes, they're usually not being honest with you.
- bhrgunatha 15y ago
  I agree, I prefer "to be frank" as I think it avoids the misunderstanding.

ElbertF 15y ago

HN users that hate to be "that guy": http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22to+be+that+guy%22&start=0 http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22to+be+th...

andrewhillman 15y ago

I think this shows that HN users are careful w/ words because they don't want come off negative and be down voted.

shingen 15y ago

I don't mean to be speculative, but I think it's always the "but" in the opening sentence that is really interesting.

deleted 15y ago

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DarkShikari 15y ago

It's an old rule that whenever someone says "I'm not racist, but", they are practically always about to say something incredibly racist. I think this can be generalized to all forms of "I'm not X, but" or, "I don't mean to be X, but", and so forth. "No offense, but, <offensive thing>" seems to also be a common variation. Is there a word for this kind of linguistic construct? ( Possibly related: http://www.notracistbut.com/ http://www.notracistbut.com/ )

jacobolus 15y ago
I think your analysis is too glib here. [And since PG seems to be implying the same thing, that goes for him too.] It’s typically a way of expressing anger/displeasure/etc. without turning the comment into a personal insult. If I say “I don’t mean to be rude, but you made a grammatical mistake”, or “I don’t mean to be harsh, but your idea doesn’t make sense” what I mean in the former case is something like “anyone could make that mistake, please don’t take it personally, but I figured you’d like to know”, or in the latter case, “you need to clarify your idea, because you’re losing your audience; I don’t want to imply it doesn’t have any merit, but as currently explained the merit doesn’t shine through”. Being able to make quick softening caveats without taking up a paragraph is very useful, and our language is more nuanced and powerful for having these constructions.
- cyoste 15y ago
  My problem with this softening caveat is that the speaker acknowledges that he will present his argument in a way that will offend/sound rude/make him look like a jerk. Instead of priming my listener for thinking I'm rude/a jerk/etc. through admitting that I am, I'll just think of another way to gently criticize. Playing to one's emotions is all about being convincing, and "I don't mean to be..." is an unconvincing phrase.
  - ewb 15y ago
    It's a way to convey tone through text. Sometimes the same comment can be taken in either a rude or a helping way, and prefacing it with "I don't mean to be rude" is a way of saying "please take this in the helping way." When talking in person you can infer this through how they say it, but in anonymous text on the internet the disclaimer is helpful.

staunch 15y ago

I assume this is related to PG's disappointment with HN'ers ragging on companies when they first launch.

primigenus 15y ago
Why do you have to assume that? Can't it just be that PG was talking to someone, this came up, he wondered what the results would be, did the search, and thought it was interesting enough to share? You know, like any hacker probably would?
- staunch 15y ago
  Perfectly possible. Just seemed to coincide with this post: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3658797 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3658797

overcyn 15y ago

I don't see anything wrong with this. There are a lot of posts on HN are looking for feedback, and criticism can very easily be mistaken for aggressiveness. Sure rudeness is rudeness but prepending "I don't mean to be..." in front of your sentences don't make it so.

primigenus 15y ago

I used to start sentences with "No offense, but..." when I felt I was going to say something controversial until a coworker pointed out that the only reason what I was saying was controversial was because I prefaced it with "No offense, but...". So now I don't say that anymore. I just say what I mean and people aren't as likely to be offended.

thought_alarm 15y ago

The earliest use of "sheeple" was from user "stcredzero" almost 4 1/2 years, in a comment that, unsurprisingly, mentions John C. Dvorak. http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=sheeple&sortby=create_ts+desc&start=90 http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=sheeple&#38... Gosh, this is a terrific resource. It's almost as much fun as Google's Usenet archive, back when it actually used to work.

jacobolus 15y ago
The earliest use of “sheeple” was decades ago: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheeple http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheeple
- Mavyrk 15y ago
  When reading his comment it was apparent to me that he was speaking in context to the matter at hand (delving into hnsearch.)
PakG1 15y ago
Had to do it. :) http://xkcd.com/1013/ http://xkcd.com/1013/

J3L2404 15y ago

The eloquent being so obtuse.

molecule 15y ago

357 things HN users are "just sayin" http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22just+sayin%22&start=0 http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22just+say...

joejohnson 15y ago
And your comment is 358!

bicknergseng 15y ago

Amazing how this thread took over the whole first page of results from that search. There's a few things that are interesting about this whole thing though. First, that HN's users are this good. Many other communities across the web eventually degrade into a news entertainment troll parties, sometimes needing to be removed in order to preserve some kind of dignity on the mother site. I'm sure there are worst things said here, but they are very much the exception. The phrase itself also got me thinking about how people express things on the web. I imagine the majority of comments with that phrase have some malicious intent, but there is also the possibility that whatever idea the user is trying to convey is something not easily expressed in text through the internet impersonally. For example, a conversation on racial stereotypes will inherently have racist undertones, but it is entirely possible that people want to discuss it genuinely without meaning to offend people. Part of the problem is that it's very difficult to communicate things like sincerity, empathy, etc. via plaintext. Another part of the problem is that people are very...willing...to be offended... though I haven't decided how much of a role the internet plays from this angle. One takeaway: if you aren't meaning to offend people, choose better words on the internet. It's likely the easiest way of saying something is offensive and will offend.

thaumaturgy 15y ago

Well, "rude" is the clear winner, with 54 occurrences (and one "intentionally rude"). Runners-up: harsh 21 ("overly harsh": 2; "too harsh: 1) negative 13 ("unduly negative": 1; "completely negative": 1; "overly negative": 2; "negative Nancy": 2; "too negative": 2; "totally negative": 2; "intentionally negative": 1) snarky 12 overly critical 11 ("too critical": 3; "critical": 3) Other common phrases: an ass 8 pedantic 8 argumentative 8 insulting 6 a downer 6 ("(a) Debbie Downer": 2; "down": 1) dismissive 6 flippant 6 ("flip": 3) offensive 7 ("blatantly offensive": 1) cynical 5 ("overly cynical": 1) condescending 5 glib 5 a jerk 5 mean 4 pessimistic 4 ("overly pessimistic": 1) that guy 4 crass 3 curt 3 a hater 3 disrespectful 3 patronizing 3 presumptuous 3 nit-picky / nitpicky 3 Terms that were only used twice: obnoxious, picky, insensitive ("culturally insensitive": 1), discouraging, crude, impolite, preachy, a tease, adversarial, coy. HN has quite the vocabulary. There's a long tail of single occurrences: meta (ed: ha-ha), naive, cheeky, shortsighted, dumb, hasty, racist (ed: surprising!), stuffy, demeaning, snide, dense, nasty, personal, unhelpful, contrary, contentious, fanboyish, cold, doom-and-gloom, frivolous, facile, accusatory, callous, lame, inflammatory, hating, ironic, skeptical, trolling, trollish, patronizing, spiteful, sexist, disagreeable, controversial, simple, overly reductionist, hard on Aussies (ed: chuckle), antagonistic, off-topic, crabby, crude, derogative (ed: think they meant derogatory), passing absolute judgement, an idiot, an alarmist, an insensitive dick, a curmudgeon, an HN curmudgeon, a troll, a jackass, a tweak, a word Nazi (ed: surely not), a grumpy gus, a dick, a total dick, a stickler, a hardass, a killjoy, a huge downer, a turd, a burden, the grumpy skeptic ... ...and my personal favorite: "the next snarky Lisp guy in the room". There were about 7 other things roughly fitting the pattern here, but not quite within the spirit of the rest: e.g., "trashing Ballmer", or "overly favorable towards Google". Quoted text was ignored where possible; instances of "or", as in, "insensitive or rude", counted as a point for each, except for "or anything", which was ignored. Terms were very lightly massaged, for example, "so callous" would have counted simply as "callous".

joejohnson 15y ago

What HN users are: http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22I+am%22&sortby=create_ts+asc&start=0 http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22I+am%22&...

DanielBMarkham 15y ago

"I don't mean to be" easily translates into "There's a hell of a long conversation here, with a lot of qualifiers, but frankly I don't have the time for it. Instead I'm just going to offer some generalization that you can easily throw rocks at. I know that you will, and now I'm telling you to have fun with it." So if I say "I don't mean to be old grumpy guy" that means that what comes out of my mouth next will be a generalization and summary of my feelings that I fully know for all intents and purposes sounds like old grumpy guy. Sorry, can't be helped. That's the way the summary looks. Most of the time people do not use such linguistic qualifiers out of some desire for self-protection or having some mechanism to inoculate them from some horrible thing that follows. It's simply a shortcut. I always thought this was pretty obvious. I know pg posted this, and it's his site, but is there really something here worthy of this being on the front page? Is this some kind of clever editorial about the quality of the commenting? If so, I don't get it. People are trying to be nice about their criticisms?

cbs 15y ago
I think you're onto something here. Its hard to give an honest opinion without sounding like an asshole or whatever you put at the end of "I don't mean to be". Even moreso when you're on HN. Its quick discussion, even though we're all techies we don't have all the domain knowledge and the different cultures here doesn't always approach things from the same standpoint.
slewis 15y ago
If you're about to submit a comment containing "I don't mean to be", stop and consider whether what you're submitting adds any value (as defined by the HN guidelines in this case) to the conversation. This is telling: "There's a hell of a long conversation here, with a lot of qualifiers, but frankly I don't have the time for it." If you don't have time to contribute something meaningful why contribute at all? The other problem with "I don't mean to be" is it's fundamentally dishonest. If you don't mean to then why are you doing it? If you must do this, just say "I'm about to be".
- Dylan16807 15y ago

pg 15y ago

This one produces an interesting list of offenses: http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22far+be+it+from+me%22&sortby=create_ts+asc http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22far+be+i...

adnam 15y ago
Brilliant! Reminds me of people saying "at the end of the day", such as in this medley from a UK chat-show (put to music): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlVonUdl3Ag http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlVonUdl3Ag
Confusion 15y ago
What do you consider offenses? I don't identify any on the first page of results, so it seems we mean different things.
- adnam 15y ago
  Cliche.
davedx 15y ago
"Far be it from me to tell women how to dress, but most women do not understand the effect they have on men" :D
rudiger 15y ago
"It turns out...": http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22it+turns+out%22+by%3Apg&sortby=create_ts+desc http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22it+turns...

anxrn 15y ago

Sorting descending by time makes this a meta post: http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22I+dont+mean+to+be%22&sortby=create_ts+desc http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22I+dont+m... It also makes this comment a meta^2 post.

hc12 15y ago

Here's an interesting one Why you should blog posts http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/submissions&q=why+you+should&start=10 http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/submissions&q=why... I'm sure there are as many how-to's posts.

rsanchez1 15y ago
I'd be more interested in "X is broken" posts. A few of those seem to pop up every day.

ricardobeat 15y ago

Related: what HN users don't want to sound like http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/comments&q=%22if+i+sound%22&sortby=create_ts+desc&start=10 http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/comments&q=%22if+...

josiahq 15y ago

HN goes self-referentially meta, and the slow transition to becoming reddit begins...

abc3 15y ago
http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22this+isn%27t+reddit%22&sortby=create_ts+asc&start=0 http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22this+isn...

evanlong 15y ago

I don't mean to be rude but was this really necessary :P

dazbradbury 15y ago

Hackers are... http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/comments&q=%22hackers+are%22&sortby=create_ts+desc&start=0 http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/comments&q=%22hac...

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

mwerty 15y ago

"Don't get me wrong." I have to suppress "Then why don't you say it right?"

MortenK 15y ago

Try also "strawman", "ad hominem" and "to be fair".

balsam 15y ago

looks like pg's stumbled upon a way to find smart comments

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

TeMPOraL 15y ago

What HN users hate to say, but still do: http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22hate+to+say+it%22&start=0 http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22hate+to+...

waitwhat 15y ago

I am reminded of the classic "not here to make friends" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w536Alnon24 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w536Alnon24

ck2 15y ago

So this is data mining in that the poster clearly defines what they are about to actually do. In fact you don't even need the "be" part, though it gets more complicated, you could even just analyze "I don't mean to" - whatever follows immediately afterwards characterizes the post? http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22I+don%27t+mean+to%22&sortby=create_ts+asc&start=0 http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=%22I+don%27...

silentscope 15y ago

clever. and I mean it.

Intermernet 15y ago

Self referential search results re: the phrase "I don't mean to be" coming right up.

rfrey 15y ago

Looking through this was interesting and fun. I'm surprised at some of the comments that posit intent doesn't matter in communication. Intent matters a great deal: a question can be sarcastically rhetorical or earnest, a comment can be blunt-but-helpful or simply meant to hurt, a reply can be a defensive knee-jerk or a clarification of position. It's possible for the same string of words to be either of those alternatives, the choice made only by intent of the writer. In physical communication there are many cues to indicate the intent of the speaker. Writers must provide those cues intentionally. "I don't mean to be" is often (not always) lazy and meaningless, of course, but that doesn't imply intent doesn't matter.