6 ms·

China Travel Advisory

32 points by xqcgrek2 3y ago

simple-thoughts 3y ago
State’s Travel advisories are a bit of a joke. Often they’ll be issued for places that are safer and have stronger rule of law than the USA.
- genmud 3y ago
  Travel advisories are meant to inform travelers of risks... not provide commentary or political discussions on domestic policies. When I worked at a huge company, I found that most advisories from state department quite accurately portrayed the risks in country. I would often look at state.gov and then talk to my local security people and they were close enough to be valuable to most travelers.
- dirtyid 3y ago
  The politics behind this is likely to reduce people to people exchanges, primarily commercial ties. The other subtext is many PRC financial criminals (legitimate ones, not just dissidents) fled to US/west in the 90s and thought golden parachute western passport would protect them, only to find out US state department doesn't have the political leverage to challenge PRC exit VISAs if they ever get coerced to return to mainland for prosecution. This includes their western born kids who are guilty by association. This is basically state department telling these people we warned you / wiping their hands of responsibility if shit hits fan.
genmud 3y ago
I wouldn't be surprised to see this activity ramp up drastically over the next few years. Anti American sentiment has been growing and their state media has been really pushing it as well due to the semiconductor and trade embargos for certain technology. Ironically this might be the straw that breaks the camels back, when you lock up people on business trips, the companies tend to not look on that very favorably.
- xerxesaa 3y ago
  Genuine question: did anyone actually get locked up on a business trip to China?
  - genmud 3y ago
    Yes, there are many examples if you simply google "china imprisoned business trip". When the Canadian government arrested a Huawei exec who was ignoring Iranian sanctions and lying to US investigators, the Chinese government arrested 2 Canadians as spies. Authoritarian governments fucking love to arrest people on "espionage" charges, since it is hard to prove and they can pretend to not be able to share because of national security.
    - aerio 3y ago
      You forgot to mention how valuable they are as bargaining chips for mutual releases of prisoners. Case in point, the American basketball player Brittney Griner was arrested in Russia on accusations of having a cannabis vape pen - and was exchanged for the world's most notorious arms dealer, Victor Bout. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/dec/08/brittney-griner-russia-us-prisoner-swap-viktor-bout https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/dec/08/brittney-grine...
      - genmud 3y ago
        Thats kind of what I was getting at with the Canadians, but Griner is a good example too.
    - dirtyid 3y ago
      No there aren't. There's like ~150 cases of exit bans of "foreigners" in PRC in the last 20 years. Vast majority of exit bans are ex Chinese (primarily financial) criminals who thought western passport would protect them only to be coerced back into PRC to face justice. Or established expats who gets dragged into legal issues, especially with local interests. Some of which might be sus. Just about the only westerners rounded up and severely punished in PRC during travel are drug smugglers. Statistically, a westerner (not ex Chinese national) has less chance of being thoroughly fucked with in PRC than an ethnically Chinese scientist in the US via China Initiative. On the two Michaels', of course they were spies, with the customary NGO cover. Useful idiots who lap up western propaganda love to think PRC... a surveillance state with extremely competent state security organ that completely dismantled CIA spy network this decade somehow needs to capture innocent westerners when they could just snatch up legitimate spies. There's a reason CSIS, Canadian CIA, publically celebrated their release on twitter [0]. Not to mention this tidbit: >Edith Terry: Michael Kovrig is a friend, and I am very conscious of the privations he has endured. And while his background is complex and possibly included intelligence gathering for the Canadian government during his diplomatic career, he was very open about his research interests and contacts. [1] The other Michael ran NKorean pertaining NGO out of PRC. Connect the dots. [0] https://twitter.com/csiscanada/status/1441571942721593345 https://twitter.com/csiscanada/status/1441571942721593345 [1] https://www.chinafile.com/conversation/will-i-return-china https://www.chinafile.com/conversation/will-i-return-china Like it's not hard to stay out of severe trouble in PRC as a foreigner. Don't traffic drugs, don't spy i.e. don't take pictures of military. Almost all the other small shit you get to drink tea with cops and sign some paperwork which is basically kid glove treament. The only real exception is journalism, hence most foreign media has left the country.
mynonameaccount 3y ago
People who go to China deserve everything they get
- genmud 3y ago
  Not really. I'm not a lover of china, but I don't wish ill on people who go there or think people should have to deal with arbitrary enforcement of laws because you are from a foreign country.
  - josephcsible 3y ago
    I feel like "wish ill" might be too strong of a way to put it. Consider that most people aren't rooting for drunk drivers to crash their cars, but also don't feel that bad when one does without hurting anyone else.
    - genmud 3y ago
      I don't feel like china is a bustling international tourist destination. I assume most people visiting have family ties or a specific purpose for their visit like business, not going there "just because I can".
- NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
  Do you have any friends in the tech industry? I have at least one friend who wound up at a job whose chief responsibilities were factory-based, and therefore that involved his frequent and extended travels to China. I believe that probably the most common travel from US->China would be business-related, and I also believe that most of those travelers really don't feel like they have a choice where they travel to, since that's where the factories are and that's where the electronics come from. For now.
  - ralph84 3y ago
    How did all of the factories end up in China but a series of choices by Americans? They have choices and always have, but insatiable greed keeps them going to China.
Havoc 3y ago
I’d love to visit China - esp the tech markets but idk hard to judge how risky it really is
- er4hn 3y ago
  It's not as bad as the internet may lead you to believe. I'm a white man visiting in laws in Nanjing right now. People have been pleasant, the food is a delight, the subway trains arrive every 4 mins and cover the city. The two biggest risks are pickpockets (hence the trend of men with zippered messenger bags on their chest) and less tourist friendly shopowners getting frustrated if they can't communicate prices to you.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    I’m really surprised pickpocketing is a thing again. It was a problem > 20 years ago, then it just stopped being a thing people worried about, so I guess it’s a thing again now? Traffic safety is probably your biggest problem in China. They are at 104 deaths / 100k, whereas the USA is at like 16. So…you really need to watch crossing the street and riding in a taxi without safety belts.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  The tech markets aren’t really that great anymore. Almost everything, as in the west, has moved online. You are about 10-15 years short of their heyday. Your chance of being used as a pawn is slim. Even less if you aren’t of Chinese ancestry, just don’t take any pictures of navy boats while you are there. Even if they are really just out in the open for everyone to see, the PLAN is really paranoid about that. Also, none of the services you used to plan your trip online will work in China. Had a friend come to Beijing and absolutely had a BSD when they found their plans they made in google docs were inaccessible.
  - onetokeoverthe 3y ago
    [dead]
aaron695 3y ago
[dead]

32 points by xqcgrek2 3y ago

State’s Travel advisories are a bit of a joke. Often they’ll be issued for places that are safer and have stronger rule of law than the USA.

genmud 3y ago
Travel advisories are meant to inform travelers of risks... not provide commentary or political discussions on domestic policies. When I worked at a huge company, I found that most advisories from state department quite accurately portrayed the risks in country. I would often look at state.gov and then talk to my local security people and they were close enough to be valuable to most travelers.
dirtyid 3y ago
The politics behind this is likely to reduce people to people exchanges, primarily commercial ties. The other subtext is many PRC financial criminals (legitimate ones, not just dissidents) fled to US/west in the 90s and thought golden parachute western passport would protect them, only to find out US state department doesn't have the political leverage to challenge PRC exit VISAs if they ever get coerced to return to mainland for prosecution. This includes their western born kids who are guilty by association. This is basically state department telling these people we warned you / wiping their hands of responsibility if shit hits fan.

genmud 3y ago

I wouldn't be surprised to see this activity ramp up drastically over the next few years. Anti American sentiment has been growing and their state media has been really pushing it as well due to the semiconductor and trade embargos for certain technology. Ironically this might be the straw that breaks the camels back, when you lock up people on business trips, the companies tend to not look on that very favorably.

xerxesaa 3y ago
Genuine question: did anyone actually get locked up on a business trip to China?
- genmud 3y ago
  Yes, there are many examples if you simply google "china imprisoned business trip". When the Canadian government arrested a Huawei exec who was ignoring Iranian sanctions and lying to US investigators, the Chinese government arrested 2 Canadians as spies. Authoritarian governments fucking love to arrest people on "espionage" charges, since it is hard to prove and they can pretend to not be able to share because of national security.
  - aerio 3y ago
    You forgot to mention how valuable they are as bargaining chips for mutual releases of prisoners. Case in point, the American basketball player Brittney Griner was arrested in Russia on accusations of having a cannabis vape pen - and was exchanged for the world's most notorious arms dealer, Victor Bout. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/dec/08/brittney-griner-russia-us-prisoner-swap-viktor-bout https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/dec/08/brittney-grine...
    - genmud 3y ago
      Thats kind of what I was getting at with the Canadians, but Griner is a good example too.
  - dirtyid 3y ago
    No there aren't. There's like ~150 cases of exit bans of "foreigners" in PRC in the last 20 years. Vast majority of exit bans are ex Chinese (primarily financial) criminals who thought western passport would protect them only to be coerced back into PRC to face justice. Or established expats who gets dragged into legal issues, especially with local interests. Some of which might be sus. Just about the only westerners rounded up and severely punished in PRC during travel are drug smugglers. Statistically, a westerner (not ex Chinese national) has less chance of being thoroughly fucked with in PRC than an ethnically Chinese scientist in the US via China Initiative. On the two Michaels', of course they were spies, with the customary NGO cover. Useful idiots who lap up western propaganda love to think PRC... a surveillance state with extremely competent state security organ that completely dismantled CIA spy network this decade somehow needs to capture innocent westerners when they could just snatch up legitimate spies. There's a reason CSIS, Canadian CIA, publically celebrated their release on twitter [0]. Not to mention this tidbit: >Edith Terry: Michael Kovrig is a friend, and I am very conscious of the privations he has endured. And while his background is complex and possibly included intelligence gathering for the Canadian government during his diplomatic career, he was very open about his research interests and contacts. [1] The other Michael ran NKorean pertaining NGO out of PRC. Connect the dots. [0] https://twitter.com/csiscanada/status/1441571942721593345 https://twitter.com/csiscanada/status/1441571942721593345 [1] https://www.chinafile.com/conversation/will-i-return-china https://www.chinafile.com/conversation/will-i-return-china Like it's not hard to stay out of severe trouble in PRC as a foreigner. Don't traffic drugs, don't spy i.e. don't take pictures of military. Almost all the other small shit you get to drink tea with cops and sign some paperwork which is basically kid glove treament. The only real exception is journalism, hence most foreign media has left the country.

mynonameaccount 3y ago

People who go to China deserve everything they get

genmud 3y ago
Not really. I'm not a lover of china, but I don't wish ill on people who go there or think people should have to deal with arbitrary enforcement of laws because you are from a foreign country.
- josephcsible 3y ago
  I feel like "wish ill" might be too strong of a way to put it. Consider that most people aren't rooting for drunk drivers to crash their cars, but also don't feel that bad when one does without hurting anyone else.
  - genmud 3y ago
    I don't feel like china is a bustling international tourist destination. I assume most people visiting have family ties or a specific purpose for their visit like business, not going there "just because I can".
NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
Do you have any friends in the tech industry? I have at least one friend who wound up at a job whose chief responsibilities were factory-based, and therefore that involved his frequent and extended travels to China. I believe that probably the most common travel from US->China would be business-related, and I also believe that most of those travelers really don't feel like they have a choice where they travel to, since that's where the factories are and that's where the electronics come from. For now.
- ralph84 3y ago
  How did all of the factories end up in China but a series of choices by Americans? They have choices and always have, but insatiable greed keeps them going to China.

Havoc 3y ago

I’d love to visit China - esp the tech markets but idk hard to judge how risky it really is

er4hn 3y ago
It's not as bad as the internet may lead you to believe. I'm a white man visiting in laws in Nanjing right now. People have been pleasant, the food is a delight, the subway trains arrive every 4 mins and cover the city. The two biggest risks are pickpockets (hence the trend of men with zippered messenger bags on their chest) and less tourist friendly shopowners getting frustrated if they can't communicate prices to you.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  I’m really surprised pickpocketing is a thing again. It was a problem > 20 years ago, then it just stopped being a thing people worried about, so I guess it’s a thing again now? Traffic safety is probably your biggest problem in China. They are at 104 deaths / 100k, whereas the USA is at like 16. So…you really need to watch crossing the street and riding in a taxi without safety belts.
seanmcdirmid 3y ago
The tech markets aren’t really that great anymore. Almost everything, as in the west, has moved online. You are about 10-15 years short of their heyday. Your chance of being used as a pawn is slim. Even less if you aren’t of Chinese ancestry, just don’t take any pictures of navy boats while you are there. Even if they are really just out in the open for everyone to see, the PLAN is really paranoid about that. Also, none of the services you used to plan your trip online will work in China. Had a friend come to Beijing and absolutely had a BSD when they found their plans they made in google docs were inaccessible.
- onetokeoverthe 3y ago
  [dead]

aaron695 3y ago

[dead]