11 ms·

Against Alcohol (2022)

120 points by vinnyglennon 3y ago

TrackerFF 3y ago
Yes, it is bad...but, what are the alternatives? Where I'm from, smoking weed is equated with being a junkie, and just getting caught with a positive urine test can ruin your life and career (no joke).
- david2ndaccount 3y ago
  It’s possible to enjoy life without needing chemicals to do so.
  - eikenberry 3y ago
    Not everyone is that fortunate.
  - Jotra7 3y ago
    [dead]
  - goostavos 3y ago
    Easier said than done : (
  - jkachmar 3y ago
    sure but some people also find life more enjoyable with the addition of recreational substances. for such folks, especially ones who don't have much exposure to recreational drug use outside of drinking culture, i think GP's question is perfectly reasonable. there are plenty of people whose drug of choice used to be alcohol and have since switched to something else and found equivalent or greater satisfaction; seems like this thread might be a good forum to have that discussion.
  - jaggederest 3y ago
    No, it is not. Asphyxiation is very unpleasant. Hint: anything made up of matter is a chemical. You probably also enjoy a lot of "chemicals" that are mind-altering or intoxicating without realizing it, unless you're very strict about your diet indeed. Casomorphins are delicious, you see, and can life without chocolate really be said to be enjoyable? Better skip fruit juice and bread, as well, given that they certainly include a percentage of alcohol and fermentation byproducts.
    - netule 3y ago
      > Asphyxiation is very unpleasant. Nitpicking, but tell that to the asphyxiophilia crowd.
      - OkayPhysicist 3y ago
        I'd argue that the intoxicating part of asphyxiation is the rush from the reintroduction of oxygen, more so than the suffocation itself. Though there's also something to be said for the adrenaline rush of your body thinking its dying.
  - ranting-moth 3y ago
    Of course it is possible. But I think in modern society which our brains are definitely not evolved to handle, people use alcohol as an temporary escape. Plus society (actually marketing, so society by proxy) tells you that you are odd/unusual for not drinking). It's peculiar how we as species have evolved into this destructive behaviour.
  - yodsanklai 3y ago
    > It’s possible to enjoy life without needing chemicals to do so. I could list many pleasant things which are not required to enjoy life. Cannabis or alcohol are among them. Can be pleasurable without any adverse effect if used reasonably, which most people manage to do.
  - lrvick 3y ago
    It is also possible to enjoy life without sex. For some people they would even prefer it. Others are depressed without regular access to it. Everyone is wired differently, and some of us need different things to get occasional boosts of dopamine that help keep us motivated and productive in life. Best not to judge others when their dopamine sources differ from yours and cause no harm to anyone else.
  - npteljes 3y ago
    What you're saying is on an individual's level, and what OP saying is on the population's level. It certainly is possible for an individual to stop abusing chemicals and to thus achieve a higher quality of life, but I can't imagine a whole society doing this, because of the historical examples. So, social poisons are here to stay, and alcohol seemed to be resilient to government intervention, so, that's all there is really.
- metadaemon 3y ago
  Weed is better in the states from that perspective. The best option is probably just working out though. Lifting can produce some fairly nice endorphins.
- pyrophane 3y ago
  Also, weed isn't really that comparable to alcohol anyway. It is a very different drug and while some people really enjoy it, others don't. Also, while I do strongly believe that weed is healthier compared to alcohol, it isn't without it's own problems.
  - xwdv 3y ago
    Weed is not “healthier”, stop spreading this mythical crap.
    - jprd 3y ago
      How about, "evidentially less physically and societally damaging if consumed at what could be perceived as congruent levels"?
    - ahahahahah 3y ago
      There's nothing mythical about it. Weed is certainly healthier than alcohol, just like coffee is certainly healthier than cigarettes. It's not about weed being particularly healthy.
- lordkirchner 3y ago
  Non-alcoholic drinks are really good and have lots of options now. Athleta Brewing Company and Phony Negroni, for example.
  - LesZedCB 3y ago
    yeah athletic brewing is pretty amazing. i also just had a bbq yesterday and got some of the NA coronas and they basically tasted identical haha!
- Mizza 3y ago
  https://inews.co.uk/inews-lifestyle/professor-david-nutt-invented-new-alcohol-no-downsides-2088768 https://inews.co.uk/inews-lifestyle/professor-david-nutt-inv... The same author as the book proposes a chemical alternative. He's an interesting guy. Product page: https://gabalabs.com/ https://gabalabs.com/
  - OkayPhysicist 3y ago
    Reading about his alternative, it sounds a lot like GHB, which I suppose makes sense. In small doses, GHB gets you that drunk feeling with out the hangover. It looks like they're investigating ways of reducing the misuse/abuse potential relative to GHB, though, reading their patent.
- paganel 3y ago
  For me good alternatives are good coffee and plain or sparkling water. About this latter choice I have to give an unironical shootout to /hydrohomies and to Cristiano Ronaldo [1] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2ZLS1V3iMw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2ZLS1V3iMw
- hahnbee 3y ago
  Yeah best alternative is to not consume substances that negatively harm your body. im not sure if "easier said than done" is being applied here in terms of it being hard not to drink in social situations or it being hard to quit drinking when using it to simply cope with life, but you can find stress relief through people and the small things in life...? I can't drink because my body viscerally reacts negatively to it like I get hives. I think it sucks for social situations but I don't really find it necessary for me to find an outlet through substances but this is all personal experience.
- yodsanklai 3y ago
  It's pretty ironic that weed is frowned upon when alcohol is not. I very rarely drink (had alcoholic parents and learned the lesson), but I do enjoy smoking weed at times (2-3 times a month, at most). I find it much lighter and harmless than alcohol, no hangover, no risk of getting drunk and acting crazy. Yet, it's something I hide from my colleagues and family. There's still some stigma attached to it in my country.
cl42 3y ago
Related: Andrew Huberman's 2-hour blog post on the negative effects of alcohol[1] convinced me to stop drinking. Once you stop drinking, it becomes so easy to see just how much alcohol pervades popular culture. People drink constantly on TV. People pressure you to drink in social situations, too. Unfortunately, it often feels like you need a 'good reason' to stop drinking or alternatively admit you were an alcoholic. It's really unfortunate and ... silly? Reddit's "stopdrinking" subreddit is also really good[2] if you are struggling with this. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkS1pkKpILY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkS1pkKpILY [2] https://www.reddit.com/r/stopdrinking https://www.reddit.com/r/stopdrinking
- hospitalJail 3y ago
  No one gives me a hard time when I answer '1-2 beers and I feel like crap tomorrow'. Heck, I feel like people give me some respect for being able to avoid alcohol at an event packed with it. Looking back on it, I always was jealous of the sober people at parties. They were having a great time and didn't need to drink or do drugs. If we are going to plug our favorite ways of breaking addictions, I love Power of Habit by Charles Duggan. I can't give a summary because that would be doing a disservice, I don't recommend any summaries online either. Its a 300-400 page book on the brain science of the basal ganglia which is responsible for addictions. It can also be used for positive habits like exercise too. Its my number 1 or number 2 book of all time.
  - Loughla 3y ago
    Duhigg, and I would like to second this. That book helped me immensely with confrontation and setting professional and personal boundaries. Not so much for smoking, though. To quit smoking, I used acupuncture. It may be complete woooo, but it worked incredibly to stop by cravings.
    - hospitalJail 3y ago
      >acupuncture People need to understand there is a physiological response even if the underlying idea is nonsense. Also, dry needling can be freaking amazing. Would recommend for both acute and chronic issues at least 1 time. (If it doesnt solve it after doing it once, its not going solve it doing it 4 times)
JimtheCoder 3y ago
I think something important to note here is that most people who reduce or eliminate alcohol from their lives do it because THEY want to, not because the government tells them to, or makes it harder/more expensive to consume. Taxes, no alcohol in supermarkets, etc...seems rather misguided...
- ethanbond 3y ago
  This is rather circular: government doesn’t step in to reduce consumption -> everyone who reduces consumption does so of their own volition -> therefore government shouldn’t step in to reduce consumption We know that taxes have a very strong positive effect on cigarette use, for example.
  - TheIronMark 3y ago
    Don't taxes on things like cigarettes and sodas disproportionally affect lower-income folks? Intended or not, it comes off as a bit classist. I don't have a better solution, tbh.
    - ethanbond 3y ago
      Virtually anything will affect people of different wealth levels differently. Are we to accept that we just shouldn't mitigate literally any problem on the planet until we first equalize wealth across the board?
    - lrvick 3y ago
      Low income is heavily linked with depression, and alcohol tends to amplify and prolong depression, which makes it that much harder to increase income. It is a vicious cycle I have known many people unable to escape. There is an argument to be made for making alcohol harder to access for younger or lower income people. This logic is a big reason why I personally avoided all recreational substances including alcohol until I felt very happy and stable in my career and trajectory in life, at 25. I advise everyone to abstain from any recreational substances at least until they are at cruising altitude in life, whenever and whatever that means for them. Occasional recreational substances are for happy and stable times, if at all.
gjsman-1000 3y ago
I hear you, I see the risks, I know the numbers... and I simultaneously don't think society has a role in restricting it more than presently, at least in the US. First, as the author admits as having some logic, "If someone can vote, if they can join the army, fight and die, get married, then they should be allowed to buy alcohol." When does adulthood kick in? If you couldn't join the army until you were 35, get married until you are 35, or own a gun until 35, I am sure the death or divorce rate statistics would go down, but nobody wants 35 to be the age of adulthood. Secondly, this claim: "Formerly wasted talent would be used in the economy, countless lives would be saved, and families and relationships would be healthier and less violent." The author really doesn't want to talk about these claims were lifted straight from Prohibition and the WCTU, verbatim. It turns out humans who don't care about wasting talent like wasting it any way they can; be it alcohol, drugs, video games, gang violence, take your pick. The WCTU learned that the hard way when gang violence for alcohol became the new favorite way to waste talent. Third, he follows the premise that dangerous means we should discourage it. I don't actually agree. Motorcycles are 20 times as deadly as cars to the rider - but I don't believe the government has any role in shutting them down. There is also a very high risk of unexpected consequences - for example, the requirements for lots of new safety equipment in new cars has been shown to have significantly priced out poorer communities, causing them to opt for cheaper, older, even more dangerous vehicles. Fourth, I think is honestly stupid that he factors drugs in as an example of how "we can ban drugs - why not alcohol?" Has literally anything about how drug bans have been enforced gone well? We can think drugs are bad for people while admitting the War on Drugs has been a nightmarish disaster with over 19% of High Schoolers admitting to having used drugs in the last 30 days, not to mention causing considerable racial effects, as well as having built a logistics service that rivals Amazon while being illegal - and yet he brings it up as though it was a good example!
- LesZedCB 3y ago
  eh i rode motorcycles for a few years, probably 5, and had several bikes in that time, went to track days, did long solo motocamping rides as well as group rides. while i definitely miss the feeling, i look back with horror and amazement that i ever did it, and very likely won't consider getting another bike again. i rode pretty conservatively the great majority of the time, but the culture is so provocative it's so fucking hard to be completely strict about it. my last bike was a big adventure bike, not a track bike, so it's not like i was squidding around on a gsxr the whole time. this basically completely parallels my journey with alcohol. i don't drink anymore and never came anywhere close to alcoholism, but it was a pervasive and toxic substance and culture that i didn't really enjoy participating in anymore. i now have many other good options and hell even the craft NA beer options are growing quite well.
ssttoo 3y ago
> study suggested that up to a quarter of young alcoholics have a social anxiety disorder Causation? Anxiety makes you drink or drinking makes you anxious?
- JimtheCoder 3y ago
  I've always heard that alcohol is a cure for social anxiety...
  - TheIronMark 3y ago
    I've always heard that it's "social lubrication".
  - roywiggins 3y ago
    It might relieve it temporarily, but one common effect is heightened anxiety once you sober up: https://www.onemedical.com/blog/healthy-living/what-hangxiety-how-combat-post-drinking-anxiety/ https://www.onemedical.com/blog/healthy-living/what-hangxiet... And even if you don't get an immediate rebound effect, in the medium term it can still worsen your anxiety.
- convolvatron 3y ago
  from my experience being a drunk and having lots of drunk friends - both
malcolmgreaves 3y ago
Curious that the author decided to ignore any attempt to articulate benefits of even moderate alcohol consumption, instead hand waving them all away with: > Left unaddressed is the presumption that alcohol is necessary to any of those (good and often great) rituals. It’s not. You can get most (perhaps all) of those social benefits without alcohol. Drinks with friends don’t have to be alcoholic. I suspect most folks' critique of this author's opinion will lie with this unsubstantiated assertion. And the ensuing inference that a prohibitionist stance strives to remove people's bodily autonomy to decide if they like using recreational drugs.
- cl42 3y ago
  My understanding is that the latest biological research is pretty clear: no amount of alcohol is better than none.
  - malcolmgreaves 3y ago
    Why did you decide to respond to my post without addressing the point of my comment?
    - cl42 3y ago
      You state there are benefits to alcohol. I specifically state there aren't based on the biological research I've read. That is directly addressing your point. EDIT: I don't see a 'reply' button beside those replying to me below. I am 100% open to being convinced of the benefits of alcohol -- especially psychological, social, etc. Please feel free to post papers that scientifically show that alcohol is beneficial. Would love to read them.
      - bowsamic 3y ago
        Who said the benefits are biological?
      - joebob42 3y ago
        They means social benefits, not health ones. They even say so in their post.
anfractuosity 3y ago
Surprised it didn't seem to mention some of his research - https://www.theguardian.com/science/2019/mar/26/an-innocent-drink-could-alcosynth-provide-all-the-joy-of-booze-without-the-dangers https://www.theguardian.com/science/2019/mar/26/an-innocent-... https://gabalabs.com/ https://gabalabs.com/ seems to be their website
AlgorithmicTime 3y ago
We don’t live to make the line go up - we make the line go up that we might live. What is in an extra half percentage point in the GDP that’s worth taking away one of life’s joys from people?
danielfoster 3y ago
The author suggests additional restrictions against alcohol in favor of increasing productivity, a common argument for the failed experiment of prohibition. Since when is my productivity his problem? He also simultaneously cites the Arab world as an example of an alcohol-free society, yet makes no mention of the relatively low productivity rates there. No one should feel compelled to drink and I support people who want to reduce their alcohol consumption. In the meantime, I have yet to see a compelling argument for heavily restricting alcohol.
- JimtheCoder 3y ago
  "Since when is my productivity his problem?" To be fair, unproductive citizens are society's problem in many ways, and he is part of society... Edit: Thanks for downvotes.
  - harvey9 3y ago
    You've framed this like having a party on the weekend equates to being universally unproductive.
    - JimtheCoder 3y ago
      I am not sure how you got that from my statement...
  - jdiff 3y ago
    The problem is caring about productivity too much.There's more to life than your work output. A minmaxed, micro-optimized life is a horribly miserable one.
  - throwanem 3y ago
    The downvotes encourage you to stop wasting society's time unproductively posting on Hacker News.
    - JimtheCoder 3y ago
xyzelement 3y ago
This is a sort of obvious thing. Alcohol achieves its effect by poisoning and shutting off parts of your body - a side effect of which is lost inhibition. And for a lot of folks, losing inhibition is not that good in seconds consequences either. On the flip side, I've had a couple of "magical" nights in my life where alcohol played a key role and I would not trade those nights away in the risk/reward equation. So as a personal measure I'd say - if you drink rarely and your results are additive to your life - great. You are striking the right balance. If you are drinking frequently and struggle to function without it (eg - can't handle a social gathering without it) then you got health and personal issues from it and should change your ways. As a society we are way too accepting of it as a casual and normal substance, for sure.
- npsimons 3y ago
  I am what I consider "borderline" for alcoholism, although I've been told by professionals that I am nowhere near it. I'm still trying to quit completely (after having reduced immensely) my intake because no level of alcohol consumption is safe for our health[0]. As you say, it's probably okay to drink rarely. But I wouldn't discourage the instinct to quit completely, and recognize that there is a high amount of pressure through culture to imbibe. [0] https://www.who.int/europe/news/item/04-01-2023-no-level-of-alcohol-consumption-is-safe-for-our-health https://www.who.int/europe/news/item/04-01-2023-no-level-of-...
  - CrampusDestrus 3y ago
    Can you go 7 days without drinking? If you can't and you relapse you might definitely be an alcoholic
    - npsimons 3y ago
      > Can you go 7 days without drinking? Yes, but I've also been blackout drunk, more than once. I can't really keep beer in the house, because much like a binge eater with sweets, I have surprisingly little self-control and will consume it all in little time. I recognize I have a family history of addiction. I also recognize I can slow down and moderate, but honestly with no level of alcohol consumption being safe for our health, why shouldn't I just quit altogether?
taeric 3y ago
I'm mostly aligned with the discussion of why folks should be careful on how much alcohol they drink. Even ok with a bias to not drinking. I do find so much of the argumentation against it very off putting, though. Happy that this article at least points out some of the nonsense in obviously too high costs associated with hangovers. That kind of rhetoric and analysis really makes it hard to care about some of the easier points. In ways that doesn't even make sense. (Why try and inflate what is ostensibly already a strong case?)
peteforde 3y ago
I don't drink often or a lot, but I really enjoy it when I do. I genuinely enjoy the taste of cider and wine. I love mixing cocktails. I enjoy experimenting with combining flavours to make something refreshing and hopefully unique. As with all vices in moderation, speaking only for myself it's been a clear net positive.
maerF0x0 3y ago
As countries begin to decriminalize marijuana I keep having cognitive dissonance that one is more restricted than the other. It makes little sense to have such a destructive substance (alcohol) be permitted whilst a less destructive substance (CBD/THC) is so aggressively punished. Without making a statement of which direction society should change, I comment that it makes little sense for their treatment to be so starkly different.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- harvey9 3y ago
  You can't get intoxicated through passive drinking.
  - Spivak 3y ago
    Okay so edibles and the same rules we have for smoking/vaping which are specifically to address your concerns.
  - Supermancho 3y ago
    Getting wasted on Listerine or Nyquil, et al is not unheard of. I happen to have a condition, independent of any medication, where Advil makes me very high. It's a strange painkiller high where I laugh uncontrollably, get dizzy, and get the standard benefits of minor pain relief, as well as slight indigestion (common for ibuprofen).
ls612 3y ago
Is Prohibitionism cyclical on a multi-generational scale? I can’t get over how often nowadays I see takes like this when Americans tried this route a century ago and learned the results the hard way.
- rglover 3y ago
  Makes sense. As the social implications of unchecked degeneracy start to play out, people start to look for scapegoats.
iambateman 3y ago
Big Alcohol is currently benefiting from the headline-domination of the opioid crisis. At one point, alcohol addiction was a major public health focus, but it’s definitely taken a back seat for the past few years. It does seem to me that taxing alcohol at higher rates makes sense to offset the social costs of providing healthcare and encourage moderation.
eduction 3y ago
Effective arguments against alcohol will be scoped to why people use it. Saying it hurts health, makes some people prone to violence, and undermines productivity misses the point. People drink alcohol despite the risks because it makes them feel good, around others especially but also alone. There are other categories of activity like this. Eating at restaurants is objectively bad for your health. Traveling is bad for your body, productivity, the environment. So? We consider them a core part of enjoying life. We like how they make us feel, despite the risks. You can argue that alcohol is a bigger risk and worse tradeoff. I agree. But I think what is most likely to persuade people are arguments that undermine the actual reason they drink. “Yes alcohol makes you feel good - but for a short time, and you feel worse for longer, and eventually get depressed.” Or “yes alcohol can bring you closer to friends - but habitual use can ruin your best relationships.” Alcohol is tempting because it has positives, especially short term ones. When I want to avoid it, I think of the other positives drinking will displace (exercise the next day, having an actually meaningful conversation with a friend, etc) Focusing purely on the risks and downsides is a mistake because human decisions always weigh the upside and downside and you cannot ignore the upside. Best approach is to convince people there is a bug in how they are weighing those (which is true!)
2-718-281-828 3y ago
not drinking alcohol isn't going to make as much of a difference as many here seem to think. in my experience not drinking at all is going to be just that - not drinking any alcohol. it's not miraculously solving or improving anything. this is considering a moderate baseline of consumption which i set at an average of 0.5L of beer per day or maybe even more depending on tolerance. sleep isn't going to be impacted by that noticeably. neither is "productivity". and yes, i do enjoy that soothing feeling a cold beer provides me with. label me what you want but this health extremism itself is unhealthy. not everybody aims for getting as old as possible or as productive as possible - certainly not me.
shrimpx 3y ago
I suspect pervasive alcohol use is in significant part an externality of, and used to 'unwind' from, the stresses and toughness of modern capitalist life. So it's probably not so easy to stop all alcohol use without addressing the modern anxieties and modes of alienation embedded in our global economy, that are numbed with alcohol.
shaggie76 3y ago
I'm unconvinced that "productivity" is the best measure my qualify of life and I get a Soviet vibe from the implication that I need to be a good worker on moral grounds (even on Saturdays).
coffeefirst 3y ago
The author is a Prohibitionist without seeming to realize he’s about a century late. We tried all this. In the US a lot of states still have dated rules on the books that primarily serve to enrich a few parties that work the monopolies.
- hayst4ck 3y ago
  Cigarettes are a counter example to this idea of "prohibitionism" not working. It took incredible societal level effort to change the culture around cigarettes. Most anyone who thinks something is bad and wants that behavior reduced might naively want to ban it, and then they realize nobody likes being told what to do and they make enemies out of otherwise allies. On the other hand very few people are capable of associating consequences to their actions in ways that change their actions. This does create a real problem for society. Cigarette smokers were stealing the public air inside of restaurants and causing undue burden on public health. People who are against things like drinking alcohol should take a page out of anti-tobacco's book. Cigarettes were salami sliced away. They removed smoking zones from restaurants, started to restrict where smoking could be done. They increased the tax on cigarettes. They showed commercials about the awful consequences of smoking. They had health care professionals bring around smokers lungs to elementary school students. They repeated cigarettes == cancer so many times in so many different forms of media. They had pictures of people with the hole in their throat speaking with the vibrating neck tool. They showed pictures of teeth. There was media about the thick layer of nasty residue on the inside of homes. Forest fires, couch fires and the like were tied to cigarette usage. There were cigarette butts littered absolutely everywhere. They resitcted use of cigarettes in movies. They restricted advertising to children. They overturned the pro tobacco research. They had lesson plans about "corrupted tobacco research" in high school. There was significant amount of conversation around second hand smoke and how second hand smoke harms your kids. They should how chewing tobacco was harmful. They showed how harmful all the cigarette aditivies were. They made nicotine patches and created treatment plans. Now if you smoke in the US, you are basically advertising that you are a low class peasant who doesn't care about themselves and can't control themselves. Smoking is very uncool. Smoking is very low status behavior. That absolutely was not the attitude 30 years ago. Going to foreign countries, it's shocking to smell cigarettes. Going to japan and entering a cafe and smelling cigarette smoke is absolutely jarring. The US didn't ban cigarettes, but they made them very very uncool. They repeated the consequences of cigarette use enough that people eventually internalized them. So you can be a prohibitionist, and that doesn't help anybody, but I do agree with the general sentiment that alcohol harms society more than it helps and to make changes you must change the culture. Changing the culture requires telling the truth to people who don't want to hear it and eventually using force ("you can't smoke here" is a use of force) in a gradually increasing way. Prohibition failed for the reason many software projects fail. It tried to make a large change at once rather than asking "what's the smallest step we can make in the right direction" and then executing on that repeatedly until your goal is achieved "enough."
slibhb 3y ago
From a utilitarian perspective alcohol is obviously bad. But no one is a utilitarian all the time. I recommend Another Round, a Danish movie, that gently argues for alcohol (with caveats).
renewiltord 3y ago
Ultimately, the thing that makes alcohol hard for me to use is that it upsets other operations: - can't effectively work out post-use - insufficient sleep damages early morning performance - can't read or work post-use However, I enjoy drinking socially, so I find it easy to regulate like I do other drugs. For instance, LSD means that day's a waste for most of my life objectives, so I use it rarely. Shrooms means that the next 4 hours or so will not be productive in terms of the things I want to do. Caffeine has to be pre-noon or it will damage sleep and affect next-day performance and increase illness risk. MDMA damages sleep. Overall, I think I manage my substance use quite well. I use with my girlfriend (who has stopped recently since we're running IVF), and recreationally with our friends, and most of these substances have positive social effects. Most of the time, I need to make time, because even though availability isn't a problem (I have lots in my fridge) the time cost is significant. There are just too many things that we want to do and too little time. Sadly, this has meant that it's been months since I last found the time. As with most substance use, it appears that there are a few people who have poor ability to manage their use and then society incurs great cost through their use. This leads to us banning it for all. That's probably fine so long as we allow a pipeline for safe users to acquire the product. In the past, the US followed this method and it worked out really well for high-end drugs: rich people could get access and the poor couldn't, and that was okay because the rich would internalize the cost but the poor would externalize it. The problem appears to be that when drugs are cheap enough and hard to control, the externalities fall on the rest of society. I can't say I have an answer to this, but the reality is that when we cannot exercise control of production facilities prohibition is likely to result in greater societal harm than widespread use. Fortunately, the few drugs that I struggle with myself, sugar and social network use, are primarily personally harming and have few socially harmful effects. Still, both of these are far more personally harmful than the other recreational drugs I have used, and have little positive effect. I suspect, like for me, most of my peers are benefited by personal interventions rather than slaving themselves to an aggregate population intervention.
corbet 3y ago
For the curious, I strongly recommend this Long Now talk by Edward Slingerland: https://longnow.org/ideas/drinking-10000-years-intoxication-and-civilization/ https://longnow.org/ideas/drinking-10000-years-intoxication-... In short: it's about why we continue to drink despite the obvious costs. There are, as it turns out, some non-obvious benefits as well.
zh3 3y ago
Governments run on alcohol and parties (at least in the UK, as demonstrated by Johnson et al.) Not really my area (or even my hemisphere) but US presidents have had a varied history of leadership success and alcohol use (anyone got a chart?). There's a pretty serious genetic element to this too, which seems to get skipped over. Could be in the future a genetic workup will advise against drinking any alcohol for some, while for others it's just a matter of personal taste (within limits).
johnea 3y ago
Well, alcohol is the corporate state supported psychoactive substance. While everything else is an evil drug™ I have a saying about wingnut america: People should use Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, like the little baby jesus intended... The clear benefits of occasional hallucinogenic use, and the very mild psychoactive effects of marijuana have been heavily criminalized for decades, while people beat the shit out of each other every night outside of bars. Puking in the gutters and screwing in the allies... I feel the primary reason alcohol is so popular is because of it's inhibition reducing effects. One has to wonder what the effect on the propogation of the species would be if noone was drunk...
erenyeager 3y ago
There’s already a growing “sober” culture in the US and you can see that production of non alcoholic beer and other substitute goods for a “bad culture” are increasing. As a person in the medical field, the fall of alcohol culture in the US would be very welcome, many cirrhosis and pancreatitis patients I’m sure will have wished to never start drinking.
dahwolf 3y ago
This is a case of trying to obsessively rationalize the irrational. Nobody gives a shit about society's "productivity" when they consume alcohol. Alcohol tends to be used to relax or to numb pain. It's not exactly the context where you're pondering about the GPD. And surely everybody knows it's bad for your health, as are many things that people continue to do regardless.
DueDilligence 3y ago
[dead]
mirpa 3y ago
Only after I witnessed how people treat my nephew, I realized how much I suffered from alcoholism of my father. I ended up with severe insomnia, depression, anxiety - disabled. Zero productivity. It is effortless for me to avoid alcohol. I don't mind having 'one' drink when people invite me, but I don't need it. Second last time I saw my father, before he died, it was so heart breaking that I almost collapsed on the ground from mental shock of just seeing him. Yes, alcohol is bad. But most people don't know why or how bad it is. Cheers.
caeril 3y ago
FTA: > One major American study suggested that up to a quarter of young alcoholics have a social anxiety disorder Ok, and . . . . ? I met my wife and successfully courted her because of alcohol. There is a precisely zero percent chance that I would have my family today if I did not have the option to use chemical assistance to overcome my innate aversion to socializing and empathizing. I transform from a robot into a human when I drink. And the author wants to take that option away from me, and many many others. It is our personal decision to trade the 0.03% decrease in brain volume and infinitesimally increased risk of cancer for the option to relate to other humans. The author's correlation to depression is laughable. Alcohol helps many of us actually relate to other people, thereby staving off said depression. Data point of n=1: Before alcohol: 0 friends, 0 romantic relationships, 0 children, mired in loneliness. After alcohol: Many friends, 1 wife, 3 children, 0 loneliness. Prohibitionists can fuck off.
nunez 3y ago
Why can't we all just agree that almost everything in life should be consumed in moderation?

120 points by vinnyglennon 3y ago

Yes, it is bad...but, what are the alternatives? Where I'm from, smoking weed is equated with being a junkie, and just getting caught with a positive urine test can ruin your life and career (no joke).

david2ndaccount 3y ago
It’s possible to enjoy life without needing chemicals to do so.
- eikenberry 3y ago
  Not everyone is that fortunate.
- Jotra7 3y ago
  [dead]
- goostavos 3y ago
  Easier said than done : (
- jkachmar 3y ago
  sure but some people also find life more enjoyable with the addition of recreational substances. for such folks, especially ones who don't have much exposure to recreational drug use outside of drinking culture, i think GP's question is perfectly reasonable. there are plenty of people whose drug of choice used to be alcohol and have since switched to something else and found equivalent or greater satisfaction; seems like this thread might be a good forum to have that discussion.
- jaggederest 3y ago
  No, it is not. Asphyxiation is very unpleasant. Hint: anything made up of matter is a chemical. You probably also enjoy a lot of "chemicals" that are mind-altering or intoxicating without realizing it, unless you're very strict about your diet indeed. Casomorphins are delicious, you see, and can life without chocolate really be said to be enjoyable? Better skip fruit juice and bread, as well, given that they certainly include a percentage of alcohol and fermentation byproducts.
  - netule 3y ago
    > Asphyxiation is very unpleasant. Nitpicking, but tell that to the asphyxiophilia crowd.
    - OkayPhysicist 3y ago
      I'd argue that the intoxicating part of asphyxiation is the rush from the reintroduction of oxygen, more so than the suffocation itself. Though there's also something to be said for the adrenaline rush of your body thinking its dying.
- ranting-moth 3y ago
  Of course it is possible. But I think in modern society which our brains are definitely not evolved to handle, people use alcohol as an temporary escape. Plus society (actually marketing, so society by proxy) tells you that you are odd/unusual for not drinking). It's peculiar how we as species have evolved into this destructive behaviour.
- yodsanklai 3y ago
  > It’s possible to enjoy life without needing chemicals to do so. I could list many pleasant things which are not required to enjoy life. Cannabis or alcohol are among them. Can be pleasurable without any adverse effect if used reasonably, which most people manage to do.
- lrvick 3y ago
  It is also possible to enjoy life without sex. For some people they would even prefer it. Others are depressed without regular access to it. Everyone is wired differently, and some of us need different things to get occasional boosts of dopamine that help keep us motivated and productive in life. Best not to judge others when their dopamine sources differ from yours and cause no harm to anyone else.
- npteljes 3y ago
  What you're saying is on an individual's level, and what OP saying is on the population's level. It certainly is possible for an individual to stop abusing chemicals and to thus achieve a higher quality of life, but I can't imagine a whole society doing this, because of the historical examples. So, social poisons are here to stay, and alcohol seemed to be resilient to government intervention, so, that's all there is really.
metadaemon 3y ago
Weed is better in the states from that perspective. The best option is probably just working out though. Lifting can produce some fairly nice endorphins.
pyrophane 3y ago
Also, weed isn't really that comparable to alcohol anyway. It is a very different drug and while some people really enjoy it, others don't. Also, while I do strongly believe that weed is healthier compared to alcohol, it isn't without it's own problems.
- xwdv 3y ago
  Weed is not “healthier”, stop spreading this mythical crap.
  - jprd 3y ago
    How about, "evidentially less physically and societally damaging if consumed at what could be perceived as congruent levels"?
  - ahahahahah 3y ago
    There's nothing mythical about it. Weed is certainly healthier than alcohol, just like coffee is certainly healthier than cigarettes. It's not about weed being particularly healthy.
lordkirchner 3y ago
Non-alcoholic drinks are really good and have lots of options now. Athleta Brewing Company and Phony Negroni, for example.
- LesZedCB 3y ago
  yeah athletic brewing is pretty amazing. i also just had a bbq yesterday and got some of the NA coronas and they basically tasted identical haha!
Mizza 3y ago
https://inews.co.uk/inews-lifestyle/professor-david-nutt-invented-new-alcohol-no-downsides-2088768 https://inews.co.uk/inews-lifestyle/professor-david-nutt-inv... The same author as the book proposes a chemical alternative. He's an interesting guy. Product page: https://gabalabs.com/ https://gabalabs.com/
- OkayPhysicist 3y ago
  Reading about his alternative, it sounds a lot like GHB, which I suppose makes sense. In small doses, GHB gets you that drunk feeling with out the hangover. It looks like they're investigating ways of reducing the misuse/abuse potential relative to GHB, though, reading their patent.
paganel 3y ago
For me good alternatives are good coffee and plain or sparkling water. About this latter choice I have to give an unironical shootout to /hydrohomies and to Cristiano Ronaldo [1] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2ZLS1V3iMw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2ZLS1V3iMw
hahnbee 3y ago
Yeah best alternative is to not consume substances that negatively harm your body. im not sure if "easier said than done" is being applied here in terms of it being hard not to drink in social situations or it being hard to quit drinking when using it to simply cope with life, but you can find stress relief through people and the small things in life...? I can't drink because my body viscerally reacts negatively to it like I get hives. I think it sucks for social situations but I don't really find it necessary for me to find an outlet through substances but this is all personal experience.
yodsanklai 3y ago
It's pretty ironic that weed is frowned upon when alcohol is not. I very rarely drink (had alcoholic parents and learned the lesson), but I do enjoy smoking weed at times (2-3 times a month, at most). I find it much lighter and harmless than alcohol, no hangover, no risk of getting drunk and acting crazy. Yet, it's something I hide from my colleagues and family. There's still some stigma attached to it in my country.

cl42 3y ago

Related: Andrew Huberman's 2-hour blog post on the negative effects of alcohol[1] convinced me to stop drinking. Once you stop drinking, it becomes so easy to see just how much alcohol pervades popular culture. People drink constantly on TV. People pressure you to drink in social situations, too. Unfortunately, it often feels like you need a 'good reason' to stop drinking or alternatively admit you were an alcoholic. It's really unfortunate and ... silly? Reddit's "stopdrinking" subreddit is also really good[2] if you are struggling with this. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkS1pkKpILY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkS1pkKpILY [2] https://www.reddit.com/r/stopdrinking https://www.reddit.com/r/stopdrinking

hospitalJail 3y ago
No one gives me a hard time when I answer '1-2 beers and I feel like crap tomorrow'. Heck, I feel like people give me some respect for being able to avoid alcohol at an event packed with it. Looking back on it, I always was jealous of the sober people at parties. They were having a great time and didn't need to drink or do drugs. If we are going to plug our favorite ways of breaking addictions, I love Power of Habit by Charles Duggan. I can't give a summary because that would be doing a disservice, I don't recommend any summaries online either. Its a 300-400 page book on the brain science of the basal ganglia which is responsible for addictions. It can also be used for positive habits like exercise too. Its my number 1 or number 2 book of all time.
- Loughla 3y ago
  Duhigg, and I would like to second this. That book helped me immensely with confrontation and setting professional and personal boundaries. Not so much for smoking, though. To quit smoking, I used acupuncture. It may be complete woooo, but it worked incredibly to stop by cravings.
  - hospitalJail 3y ago
    >acupuncture People need to understand there is a physiological response even if the underlying idea is nonsense. Also, dry needling can be freaking amazing. Would recommend for both acute and chronic issues at least 1 time. (If it doesnt solve it after doing it once, its not going solve it doing it 4 times)

JimtheCoder 3y ago

I think something important to note here is that most people who reduce or eliminate alcohol from their lives do it because THEY want to, not because the government tells them to, or makes it harder/more expensive to consume. Taxes, no alcohol in supermarkets, etc...seems rather misguided...

ethanbond 3y ago
This is rather circular: government doesn’t step in to reduce consumption -> everyone who reduces consumption does so of their own volition -> therefore government shouldn’t step in to reduce consumption We know that taxes have a very strong positive effect on cigarette use, for example.
- TheIronMark 3y ago
  Don't taxes on things like cigarettes and sodas disproportionally affect lower-income folks? Intended or not, it comes off as a bit classist. I don't have a better solution, tbh.
  - ethanbond 3y ago
    Virtually anything will affect people of different wealth levels differently. Are we to accept that we just shouldn't mitigate literally any problem on the planet until we first equalize wealth across the board?
  - lrvick 3y ago
    Low income is heavily linked with depression, and alcohol tends to amplify and prolong depression, which makes it that much harder to increase income. It is a vicious cycle I have known many people unable to escape. There is an argument to be made for making alcohol harder to access for younger or lower income people. This logic is a big reason why I personally avoided all recreational substances including alcohol until I felt very happy and stable in my career and trajectory in life, at 25. I advise everyone to abstain from any recreational substances at least until they are at cruising altitude in life, whenever and whatever that means for them. Occasional recreational substances are for happy and stable times, if at all.

gjsman-1000 3y ago

I hear you, I see the risks, I know the numbers... and I simultaneously don't think society has a role in restricting it more than presently, at least in the US. First, as the author admits as having some logic, "If someone can vote, if they can join the army, fight and die, get married, then they should be allowed to buy alcohol." When does adulthood kick in? If you couldn't join the army until you were 35, get married until you are 35, or own a gun until 35, I am sure the death or divorce rate statistics would go down, but nobody wants 35 to be the age of adulthood. Secondly, this claim: "Formerly wasted talent would be used in the economy, countless lives would be saved, and families and relationships would be healthier and less violent." The author really doesn't want to talk about these claims were lifted straight from Prohibition and the WCTU, verbatim. It turns out humans who don't care about wasting talent like wasting it any way they can; be it alcohol, drugs, video games, gang violence, take your pick. The WCTU learned that the hard way when gang violence for alcohol became the new favorite way to waste talent. Third, he follows the premise that dangerous means we should discourage it. I don't actually agree. Motorcycles are 20 times as deadly as cars to the rider - but I don't believe the government has any role in shutting them down. There is also a very high risk of unexpected consequences - for example, the requirements for lots of new safety equipment in new cars has been shown to have significantly priced out poorer communities, causing them to opt for cheaper, older, even more dangerous vehicles. Fourth, I think is honestly stupid that he factors drugs in as an example of how "we can ban drugs - why not alcohol?" Has literally anything about how drug bans have been enforced gone well? We can think drugs are bad for people while admitting the War on Drugs has been a nightmarish disaster with over 19% of High Schoolers admitting to having used drugs in the last 30 days, not to mention causing considerable racial effects, as well as having built a logistics service that rivals Amazon while being illegal - and yet he brings it up as though it was a good example!

LesZedCB 3y ago
eh i rode motorcycles for a few years, probably 5, and had several bikes in that time, went to track days, did long solo motocamping rides as well as group rides. while i definitely miss the feeling, i look back with horror and amazement that i ever did it, and very likely won't consider getting another bike again. i rode pretty conservatively the great majority of the time, but the culture is so provocative it's so fucking hard to be completely strict about it. my last bike was a big adventure bike, not a track bike, so it's not like i was squidding around on a gsxr the whole time. this basically completely parallels my journey with alcohol. i don't drink anymore and never came anywhere close to alcoholism, but it was a pervasive and toxic substance and culture that i didn't really enjoy participating in anymore. i now have many other good options and hell even the craft NA beer options are growing quite well.

ssttoo 3y ago

> study suggested that up to a quarter of young alcoholics have a social anxiety disorder Causation? Anxiety makes you drink or drinking makes you anxious?

JimtheCoder 3y ago
I've always heard that alcohol is a cure for social anxiety...
- TheIronMark 3y ago
  I've always heard that it's "social lubrication".
- roywiggins 3y ago
  It might relieve it temporarily, but one common effect is heightened anxiety once you sober up: https://www.onemedical.com/blog/healthy-living/what-hangxiety-how-combat-post-drinking-anxiety/ https://www.onemedical.com/blog/healthy-living/what-hangxiet... And even if you don't get an immediate rebound effect, in the medium term it can still worsen your anxiety.
convolvatron 3y ago
from my experience being a drunk and having lots of drunk friends - both

malcolmgreaves 3y ago

Curious that the author decided to ignore any attempt to articulate benefits of even moderate alcohol consumption, instead hand waving them all away with: > Left unaddressed is the presumption that alcohol is necessary to any of those (good and often great) rituals. It’s not. You can get most (perhaps all) of those social benefits without alcohol. Drinks with friends don’t have to be alcoholic. I suspect most folks' critique of this author's opinion will lie with this unsubstantiated assertion. And the ensuing inference that a prohibitionist stance strives to remove people's bodily autonomy to decide if they like using recreational drugs.

cl42 3y ago
My understanding is that the latest biological research is pretty clear: no amount of alcohol is better than none.
- malcolmgreaves 3y ago
  Why did you decide to respond to my post without addressing the point of my comment?
  - cl42 3y ago
    You state there are benefits to alcohol. I specifically state there aren't based on the biological research I've read. That is directly addressing your point. EDIT: I don't see a 'reply' button beside those replying to me below. I am 100% open to being convinced of the benefits of alcohol -- especially psychological, social, etc. Please feel free to post papers that scientifically show that alcohol is beneficial. Would love to read them.
    - bowsamic 3y ago
      Who said the benefits are biological?
    - joebob42 3y ago
      They means social benefits, not health ones. They even say so in their post.

anfractuosity 3y ago

Surprised it didn't seem to mention some of his research - https://www.theguardian.com/science/2019/mar/26/an-innocent-drink-could-alcosynth-provide-all-the-joy-of-booze-without-the-dangers https://www.theguardian.com/science/2019/mar/26/an-innocent-... https://gabalabs.com/ https://gabalabs.com/ seems to be their website

AlgorithmicTime 3y ago

We don’t live to make the line go up - we make the line go up that we might live. What is in an extra half percentage point in the GDP that’s worth taking away one of life’s joys from people?

danielfoster 3y ago

The author suggests additional restrictions against alcohol in favor of increasing productivity, a common argument for the failed experiment of prohibition. Since when is my productivity his problem? He also simultaneously cites the Arab world as an example of an alcohol-free society, yet makes no mention of the relatively low productivity rates there. No one should feel compelled to drink and I support people who want to reduce their alcohol consumption. In the meantime, I have yet to see a compelling argument for heavily restricting alcohol.

JimtheCoder 3y ago
"Since when is my productivity his problem?" To be fair, unproductive citizens are society's problem in many ways, and he is part of society... Edit: Thanks for downvotes.
- harvey9 3y ago
  You've framed this like having a party on the weekend equates to being universally unproductive.
  - JimtheCoder 3y ago
    I am not sure how you got that from my statement...
- jdiff 3y ago
  The problem is caring about productivity too much.There's more to life than your work output. A minmaxed, micro-optimized life is a horribly miserable one.
- throwanem 3y ago
  The downvotes encourage you to stop wasting society's time unproductively posting on Hacker News.
  - JimtheCoder 3y ago

xyzelement 3y ago

This is a sort of obvious thing. Alcohol achieves its effect by poisoning and shutting off parts of your body - a side effect of which is lost inhibition. And for a lot of folks, losing inhibition is not that good in seconds consequences either. On the flip side, I've had a couple of "magical" nights in my life where alcohol played a key role and I would not trade those nights away in the risk/reward equation. So as a personal measure I'd say - if you drink rarely and your results are additive to your life - great. You are striking the right balance. If you are drinking frequently and struggle to function without it (eg - can't handle a social gathering without it) then you got health and personal issues from it and should change your ways. As a society we are way too accepting of it as a casual and normal substance, for sure.

npsimons 3y ago
I am what I consider "borderline" for alcoholism, although I've been told by professionals that I am nowhere near it. I'm still trying to quit completely (after having reduced immensely) my intake because no level of alcohol consumption is safe for our health[0]. As you say, it's probably okay to drink rarely. But I wouldn't discourage the instinct to quit completely, and recognize that there is a high amount of pressure through culture to imbibe. [0] https://www.who.int/europe/news/item/04-01-2023-no-level-of-alcohol-consumption-is-safe-for-our-health https://www.who.int/europe/news/item/04-01-2023-no-level-of-...
- CrampusDestrus 3y ago
  Can you go 7 days without drinking? If you can't and you relapse you might definitely be an alcoholic
  - npsimons 3y ago
    > Can you go 7 days without drinking? Yes, but I've also been blackout drunk, more than once. I can't really keep beer in the house, because much like a binge eater with sweets, I have surprisingly little self-control and will consume it all in little time. I recognize I have a family history of addiction. I also recognize I can slow down and moderate, but honestly with no level of alcohol consumption being safe for our health, why shouldn't I just quit altogether?

taeric 3y ago

I'm mostly aligned with the discussion of why folks should be careful on how much alcohol they drink. Even ok with a bias to not drinking. I do find so much of the argumentation against it very off putting, though. Happy that this article at least points out some of the nonsense in obviously too high costs associated with hangovers. That kind of rhetoric and analysis really makes it hard to care about some of the easier points. In ways that doesn't even make sense. (Why try and inflate what is ostensibly already a strong case?)

peteforde 3y ago

I don't drink often or a lot, but I really enjoy it when I do. I genuinely enjoy the taste of cider and wine. I love mixing cocktails. I enjoy experimenting with combining flavours to make something refreshing and hopefully unique. As with all vices in moderation, speaking only for myself it's been a clear net positive.

maerF0x0 3y ago

As countries begin to decriminalize marijuana I keep having cognitive dissonance that one is more restricted than the other. It makes little sense to have such a destructive substance (alcohol) be permitted whilst a less destructive substance (CBD/THC) is so aggressively punished. Without making a statement of which direction society should change, I comment that it makes little sense for their treatment to be so starkly different.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
harvey9 3y ago
You can't get intoxicated through passive drinking.
- Spivak 3y ago
  Okay so edibles and the same rules we have for smoking/vaping which are specifically to address your concerns.
- Supermancho 3y ago
  Getting wasted on Listerine or Nyquil, et al is not unheard of. I happen to have a condition, independent of any medication, where Advil makes me very high. It's a strange painkiller high where I laugh uncontrollably, get dizzy, and get the standard benefits of minor pain relief, as well as slight indigestion (common for ibuprofen).

ls612 3y ago

Is Prohibitionism cyclical on a multi-generational scale? I can’t get over how often nowadays I see takes like this when Americans tried this route a century ago and learned the results the hard way.

rglover 3y ago
Makes sense. As the social implications of unchecked degeneracy start to play out, people start to look for scapegoats.

iambateman 3y ago

Big Alcohol is currently benefiting from the headline-domination of the opioid crisis. At one point, alcohol addiction was a major public health focus, but it’s definitely taken a back seat for the past few years. It does seem to me that taxing alcohol at higher rates makes sense to offset the social costs of providing healthcare and encourage moderation.

eduction 3y ago

Effective arguments against alcohol will be scoped to why people use it. Saying it hurts health, makes some people prone to violence, and undermines productivity misses the point. People drink alcohol despite the risks because it makes them feel good, around others especially but also alone. There are other categories of activity like this. Eating at restaurants is objectively bad for your health. Traveling is bad for your body, productivity, the environment. So? We consider them a core part of enjoying life. We like how they make us feel, despite the risks. You can argue that alcohol is a bigger risk and worse tradeoff. I agree. But I think what is most likely to persuade people are arguments that undermine the actual reason they drink. “Yes alcohol makes you feel good - but for a short time, and you feel worse for longer, and eventually get depressed.” Or “yes alcohol can bring you closer to friends - but habitual use can ruin your best relationships.” Alcohol is tempting because it has positives, especially short term ones. When I want to avoid it, I think of the other positives drinking will displace (exercise the next day, having an actually meaningful conversation with a friend, etc) Focusing purely on the risks and downsides is a mistake because human decisions always weigh the upside and downside and you cannot ignore the upside. Best approach is to convince people there is a bug in how they are weighing those (which is true!)

2-718-281-828 3y ago

not drinking alcohol isn't going to make as much of a difference as many here seem to think. in my experience not drinking at all is going to be just that - not drinking any alcohol. it's not miraculously solving or improving anything. this is considering a moderate baseline of consumption which i set at an average of 0.5L of beer per day or maybe even more depending on tolerance. sleep isn't going to be impacted by that noticeably. neither is "productivity". and yes, i do enjoy that soothing feeling a cold beer provides me with. label me what you want but this health extremism itself is unhealthy. not everybody aims for getting as old as possible or as productive as possible - certainly not me.

shrimpx 3y ago

I suspect pervasive alcohol use is in significant part an externality of, and used to 'unwind' from, the stresses and toughness of modern capitalist life. So it's probably not so easy to stop all alcohol use without addressing the modern anxieties and modes of alienation embedded in our global economy, that are numbed with alcohol.

shaggie76 3y ago

I'm unconvinced that "productivity" is the best measure my qualify of life and I get a Soviet vibe from the implication that I need to be a good worker on moral grounds (even on Saturdays).

coffeefirst 3y ago

The author is a Prohibitionist without seeming to realize he’s about a century late. We tried all this. In the US a lot of states still have dated rules on the books that primarily serve to enrich a few parties that work the monopolies.

hayst4ck 3y ago
Cigarettes are a counter example to this idea of "prohibitionism" not working. It took incredible societal level effort to change the culture around cigarettes. Most anyone who thinks something is bad and wants that behavior reduced might naively want to ban it, and then they realize nobody likes being told what to do and they make enemies out of otherwise allies. On the other hand very few people are capable of associating consequences to their actions in ways that change their actions. This does create a real problem for society. Cigarette smokers were stealing the public air inside of restaurants and causing undue burden on public health. People who are against things like drinking alcohol should take a page out of anti-tobacco's book. Cigarettes were salami sliced away. They removed smoking zones from restaurants, started to restrict where smoking could be done. They increased the tax on cigarettes. They showed commercials about the awful consequences of smoking. They had health care professionals bring around smokers lungs to elementary school students. They repeated cigarettes == cancer so many times in so many different forms of media. They had pictures of people with the hole in their throat speaking with the vibrating neck tool. They showed pictures of teeth. There was media about the thick layer of nasty residue on the inside of homes. Forest fires, couch fires and the like were tied to cigarette usage. There were cigarette butts littered absolutely everywhere. They resitcted use of cigarettes in movies. They restricted advertising to children. They overturned the pro tobacco research. They had lesson plans about "corrupted tobacco research" in high school. There was significant amount of conversation around second hand smoke and how second hand smoke harms your kids. They should how chewing tobacco was harmful. They showed how harmful all the cigarette aditivies were. They made nicotine patches and created treatment plans. Now if you smoke in the US, you are basically advertising that you are a low class peasant who doesn't care about themselves and can't control themselves. Smoking is very uncool. Smoking is very low status behavior. That absolutely was not the attitude 30 years ago. Going to foreign countries, it's shocking to smell cigarettes. Going to japan and entering a cafe and smelling cigarette smoke is absolutely jarring. The US didn't ban cigarettes, but they made them very very uncool. They repeated the consequences of cigarette use enough that people eventually internalized them. So you can be a prohibitionist, and that doesn't help anybody, but I do agree with the general sentiment that alcohol harms society more than it helps and to make changes you must change the culture. Changing the culture requires telling the truth to people who don't want to hear it and eventually using force ("you can't smoke here" is a use of force) in a gradually increasing way. Prohibition failed for the reason many software projects fail. It tried to make a large change at once rather than asking "what's the smallest step we can make in the right direction" and then executing on that repeatedly until your goal is achieved "enough."

slibhb 3y ago

From a utilitarian perspective alcohol is obviously bad. But no one is a utilitarian all the time. I recommend Another Round, a Danish movie, that gently argues for alcohol (with caveats).

renewiltord 3y ago

Ultimately, the thing that makes alcohol hard for me to use is that it upsets other operations: - can't effectively work out post-use - insufficient sleep damages early morning performance - can't read or work post-use However, I enjoy drinking socially, so I find it easy to regulate like I do other drugs. For instance, LSD means that day's a waste for most of my life objectives, so I use it rarely. Shrooms means that the next 4 hours or so will not be productive in terms of the things I want to do. Caffeine has to be pre-noon or it will damage sleep and affect next-day performance and increase illness risk. MDMA damages sleep. Overall, I think I manage my substance use quite well. I use with my girlfriend (who has stopped recently since we're running IVF), and recreationally with our friends, and most of these substances have positive social effects. Most of the time, I need to make time, because even though availability isn't a problem (I have lots in my fridge) the time cost is significant. There are just too many things that we want to do and too little time. Sadly, this has meant that it's been months since I last found the time. As with most substance use, it appears that there are a few people who have poor ability to manage their use and then society incurs great cost through their use. This leads to us banning it for all. That's probably fine so long as we allow a pipeline for safe users to acquire the product. In the past, the US followed this method and it worked out really well for high-end drugs: rich people could get access and the poor couldn't, and that was okay because the rich would internalize the cost but the poor would externalize it. The problem appears to be that when drugs are cheap enough and hard to control, the externalities fall on the rest of society. I can't say I have an answer to this, but the reality is that when we cannot exercise control of production facilities prohibition is likely to result in greater societal harm than widespread use. Fortunately, the few drugs that I struggle with myself, sugar and social network use, are primarily personally harming and have few socially harmful effects. Still, both of these are far more personally harmful than the other recreational drugs I have used, and have little positive effect. I suspect, like for me, most of my peers are benefited by personal interventions rather than slaving themselves to an aggregate population intervention.

corbet 3y ago

For the curious, I strongly recommend this Long Now talk by Edward Slingerland: https://longnow.org/ideas/drinking-10000-years-intoxication-and-civilization/ https://longnow.org/ideas/drinking-10000-years-intoxication-... In short: it's about why we continue to drink despite the obvious costs. There are, as it turns out, some non-obvious benefits as well.

zh3 3y ago

Governments run on alcohol and parties (at least in the UK, as demonstrated by Johnson et al.) Not really my area (or even my hemisphere) but US presidents have had a varied history of leadership success and alcohol use (anyone got a chart?). There's a pretty serious genetic element to this too, which seems to get skipped over. Could be in the future a genetic workup will advise against drinking any alcohol for some, while for others it's just a matter of personal taste (within limits).

johnea 3y ago

Well, alcohol is the corporate state supported psychoactive substance. While everything else is an evil drug™ I have a saying about wingnut america: People should use Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, like the little baby jesus intended... The clear benefits of occasional hallucinogenic use, and the very mild psychoactive effects of marijuana have been heavily criminalized for decades, while people beat the shit out of each other every night outside of bars. Puking in the gutters and screwing in the allies... I feel the primary reason alcohol is so popular is because of it's inhibition reducing effects. One has to wonder what the effect on the propogation of the species would be if noone was drunk...

erenyeager 3y ago

There’s already a growing “sober” culture in the US and you can see that production of non alcoholic beer and other substitute goods for a “bad culture” are increasing. As a person in the medical field, the fall of alcohol culture in the US would be very welcome, many cirrhosis and pancreatitis patients I’m sure will have wished to never start drinking.

dahwolf 3y ago

This is a case of trying to obsessively rationalize the irrational. Nobody gives a shit about society's "productivity" when they consume alcohol. Alcohol tends to be used to relax or to numb pain. It's not exactly the context where you're pondering about the GPD. And surely everybody knows it's bad for your health, as are many things that people continue to do regardless.

DueDilligence 3y ago

[dead]

mirpa 3y ago

Only after I witnessed how people treat my nephew, I realized how much I suffered from alcoholism of my father. I ended up with severe insomnia, depression, anxiety - disabled. Zero productivity. It is effortless for me to avoid alcohol. I don't mind having 'one' drink when people invite me, but I don't need it. Second last time I saw my father, before he died, it was so heart breaking that I almost collapsed on the ground from mental shock of just seeing him. Yes, alcohol is bad. But most people don't know why or how bad it is. Cheers.

caeril 3y ago

FTA: > One major American study suggested that up to a quarter of young alcoholics have a social anxiety disorder Ok, and . . . . ? I met my wife and successfully courted her because of alcohol. There is a precisely zero percent chance that I would have my family today if I did not have the option to use chemical assistance to overcome my innate aversion to socializing and empathizing. I transform from a robot into a human when I drink. And the author wants to take that option away from me, and many many others. It is our personal decision to trade the 0.03% decrease in brain volume and infinitesimally increased risk of cancer for the option to relate to other humans. The author's correlation to depression is laughable. Alcohol helps many of us actually relate to other people, thereby staving off said depression. Data point of n=1: Before alcohol: 0 friends, 0 romantic relationships, 0 children, mired in loneliness. After alcohol: Many friends, 1 wife, 3 children, 0 loneliness. Prohibitionists can fuck off.

nunez 3y ago

Why can't we all just agree that almost everything in life should be consumed in moderation?