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I can't imagine how anyone enjoys games like these unless they really are sociopaths. War is when young men go die for the old men's mistakes and kill a lot of

I can't imagine how anyone enjoys games like these unless they really are sociopaths. War is when young men go die for the old men's mistakes and kill a lot of women in children in the process.

icebraining 15y ago
What games? MW and the like, or the hypothetical game he was describing?
- cpursley 15y ago
  Any type of game where you shoot another human being is F*d up. The hypothetical scenario where you can accidentally kill innocents does not justify the game.
  - cobrausn 15y ago
    The game does not have to 'justify' itself to you, or anyone. It is what it is - a virtual world where human conflict drives the story and the mechanics, and the goal is entertainment. And if people like playing games where other humans are enemy, what does that tell you about people? Maybe you have not noticed, but violence is part of human nature, and our creative works (of all kinds) have used this because, for better or for worse, it mirrors us. If you don't like the reflection, don't look. I don't suppose you think any book where humans kill humans is also 'F*d up'? What about movies? Or is it only acceptable when they provide moral overtones you agree with?
    - pbhjpbhj 15y ago
      >And if people like playing games where other humans are enemy, what does that tell you about people? // I've played such games a little but never thought of the people I was playing with as the enemy. The people you play with are your friends normally aren't they?
      - icebraining 15y ago
        I think parent means what the characters in the games are supposed to be. I don't think the vast majority of players see others as "enemies", they're simply adversaries, much like in a sports game. There's the random oddball (usually an immature kid) that gets too worked up when he loses and starts insulting people, but then again, that's common in sports too.
  - angersock 15y ago
    If you accidentally kill innocents you probably aren't very good at the game. (ammo is a precious resource)
  - icebraining 15y ago
    So, paintball? Because I don't know of any video game where you shoot another human being. I do know of plenty of games where you "shoot" blocks of pixels. And I assure that I'm perfectly capable of distinguish them, both at a rational and emotional level.
    - gnosis 15y ago
      "I don't know of any video game where you shoot another human being. ... I do know of plenty of games where you "shoot" blocks of pixels." This reminds me of a story in Stanislaw Lem's Cyberiad (which is a fantastic book -- highly recommended). From this[1] description of the story: In the story "How Trurl's Own Perfection Led to No Good," Lem describes how Trurl consoles a deposed dictator named Excelsius by building him a simulated kingdom -- a small-scale mechanical model controlled by computer programs -- so that his client can play at being a tyrant without actually harming anyone. But Klapaucius objects that, because Trurl's model is so perfect, Trurl has actually created a host of conscious beings who are suffering under Excelsius' misrule... "If an imperfect imitator, wishing to inflict pain, were to build himself a crude idol of wood or wax, and further give it some makeshift semblance of a sentient being, his torture of the thing would be a paltry mockery indeed! But consider a succession of improvements on this practice! Consider the next sculptor, who builds a doll with a recording in its belly, that it may groan beneath his blows; consider a doll which, when beaten, begs for mercy, no longer a crude idol, but a homeostat; consider a doll that sheds tears, a doll that bleeds, a doll that fears death, though it also longs for the peace that only death can bring! . . . You say there's no way of knowing whether Excelsius' subjects groan, when beaten, purely because of the electrons hopping about inside -- like wheels grinding out the mimicry of a voice -- or whether they really groan, that is, because they honestly experience pain? A pretty distinction, this! No, Trurl, a sufferer is not one who hands you his suffering, that you may touch it, weigh it, bite it like a coin; a sufferer is one who behaves like a sufferer!" [1] - http://www.inform.umd.edu/EdRes/Colleges/ARHU/Depts/History/Faculty/JAbbate/cyborg/cyberiad.html http://www.inform.umd.edu/EdRes/Colleges/ARHU/Depts/History/...
      - burgerbrain 15y ago
orbitingpluto 15y ago
You have empathy issues. Plain and simple. :P I find the source of most of the fun is the initial hit of adrenaline that lasts for about 10 minutes when playing multiplayer. It gets pretty old after that so I rarely play them. I have a large stack of shrinkwrapped freebies including war fps that I haven't yet touched dating back to 2009. Usually I just give them away. I prefer the fps games where complete suspension of disbelief is required like the Dooms/Quakes. First time I played that and I raised the flashlight to see that I was about to get mauled I almost wet myself. No empathy required as it is so clearly not real. I however start to feel guilty about leading units in Civ to die. I empathize with you. :P Edit: Since this is getting downvoted I'll add another bit to clarify. Games that simulate anything are still pretty simple and if you don't bring your imagination to supplement the experience, it gets pretty boring pretty quickly. I find it more fun to play who I am than to go with the assumed pigeonhole for success.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
  - orbitingpluto 15y ago
    You didn't follow the train of thought there. I was ascribing (in a tongue-in-cheek manner) empathy issues to the person who was against these games. Not the people who play these games. Thank you for playing.
    - Karunamon 15y ago
      Welp - that's what I get for browsing HN in a bad mood. My bad, deleting :)
drhayes9 15y ago
It's because, ultimately, games of all sorts (not just video) are in this funny realm where we don't think too much about what we're doing beyond the mechanics of the game. The story wrapped around the mechanics becomes the chrome added to the machine that generates the fun; required for the total experience, but maybe not the essence of the game. After the housing crisis in the US, do you still play Monopoly? How can you without sympathizing with all those people who got foreclosed on while the banking fatcats got rich? The tight feedback loops of videogames make us examine them more closely, but, truly, games have always done this. All that said, I don't enjoy CoD and the like because I'm not a FPS kind of guy, and I don't like the glamorization of war. But I had a lot of fun playing Warhammer 40k for a short time after college, so... does that make me a sociopath?
phaus 15y ago
Have you ever watched an action movie and enjoyed it? If so, you should be aware that it is essentially the same thing as playing a violent video game. Have you ever read a fantasy/sci-fi/historical novel where a conflict took place and people died? It's still the same thing. Did you ever read comic books or watch loony tunes? Both are full of violence. Aggressive behavior is sadly just a consequence of being a member of the animal kingdom. However, we are gifted with an intelligence that allows us to understand that violence is not a favorable attribute in any society, so we developed artificial outlets for our aggressive tendencies in the form of video games, movies, music, comic books, sports, and even literature. There isn't anything unhealthy about playing a violent video game. I suspect if someone did create the game that was described in the article, that most people who currently enjoy violent games wouldn't enjoy playing it, which incidentally happens to be the author's point.
Cushman 15y ago
"Bang! You're dead." "No I'm not! No I'm not!" Sociopaths? That's all these games are. If you seriously can't understand how normal, empathic people could enjoy playing pretend, then you, not they, are the one who has difficulty distinguishing reality from fiction.
vacri 15y ago
Can't men be innocents, too? Why do we only ever think of women and children as innocents?
- Cadsby 15y ago
  Because most, if not all, societies have tended to view women as helpless physically and therefore unable to adequately defend themselves. There are broadly three categories people take particular exception to with regards to violence - women, children and the elderly.

I can't imagine how anyone enjoys games like these unless they really are sociopaths. War is when young men go die for the old men's mistakes and kill a lot of women in children in the process.

icebraining 15y ago

What games? MW and the like, or the hypothetical game he was describing?

cpursley 15y ago
Any type of game where you shoot another human being is F*d up. The hypothetical scenario where you can accidentally kill innocents does not justify the game.
- cobrausn 15y ago
  The game does not have to 'justify' itself to you, or anyone. It is what it is - a virtual world where human conflict drives the story and the mechanics, and the goal is entertainment. And if people like playing games where other humans are enemy, what does that tell you about people? Maybe you have not noticed, but violence is part of human nature, and our creative works (of all kinds) have used this because, for better or for worse, it mirrors us. If you don't like the reflection, don't look. I don't suppose you think any book where humans kill humans is also 'F*d up'? What about movies? Or is it only acceptable when they provide moral overtones you agree with?
  - pbhjpbhj 15y ago
    >And if people like playing games where other humans are enemy, what does that tell you about people? // I've played such games a little but never thought of the people I was playing with as the enemy. The people you play with are your friends normally aren't they?
    - icebraining 15y ago
      I think parent means what the characters in the games are supposed to be. I don't think the vast majority of players see others as "enemies", they're simply adversaries, much like in a sports game. There's the random oddball (usually an immature kid) that gets too worked up when he loses and starts insulting people, but then again, that's common in sports too.
- angersock 15y ago
  If you accidentally kill innocents you probably aren't very good at the game. (ammo is a precious resource)
- icebraining 15y ago
  So, paintball? Because I don't know of any video game where you shoot another human being. I do know of plenty of games where you "shoot" blocks of pixels. And I assure that I'm perfectly capable of distinguish them, both at a rational and emotional level.
  - gnosis 15y ago
    "I don't know of any video game where you shoot another human being. ... I do know of plenty of games where you "shoot" blocks of pixels." This reminds me of a story in Stanislaw Lem's Cyberiad (which is a fantastic book -- highly recommended). From this[1] description of the story: In the story "How Trurl's Own Perfection Led to No Good," Lem describes how Trurl consoles a deposed dictator named Excelsius by building him a simulated kingdom -- a small-scale mechanical model controlled by computer programs -- so that his client can play at being a tyrant without actually harming anyone. But Klapaucius objects that, because Trurl's model is so perfect, Trurl has actually created a host of conscious beings who are suffering under Excelsius' misrule... "If an imperfect imitator, wishing to inflict pain, were to build himself a crude idol of wood or wax, and further give it some makeshift semblance of a sentient being, his torture of the thing would be a paltry mockery indeed! But consider a succession of improvements on this practice! Consider the next sculptor, who builds a doll with a recording in its belly, that it may groan beneath his blows; consider a doll which, when beaten, begs for mercy, no longer a crude idol, but a homeostat; consider a doll that sheds tears, a doll that bleeds, a doll that fears death, though it also longs for the peace that only death can bring! . . . You say there's no way of knowing whether Excelsius' subjects groan, when beaten, purely because of the electrons hopping about inside -- like wheels grinding out the mimicry of a voice -- or whether they really groan, that is, because they honestly experience pain? A pretty distinction, this! No, Trurl, a sufferer is not one who hands you his suffering, that you may touch it, weigh it, bite it like a coin; a sufferer is one who behaves like a sufferer!" [1] - http://www.inform.umd.edu/EdRes/Colleges/ARHU/Depts/History/Faculty/JAbbate/cyborg/cyberiad.html http://www.inform.umd.edu/EdRes/Colleges/ARHU/Depts/History/...
    - burgerbrain 15y ago

orbitingpluto 15y ago

You have empathy issues. Plain and simple. :P I find the source of most of the fun is the initial hit of adrenaline that lasts for about 10 minutes when playing multiplayer. It gets pretty old after that so I rarely play them. I have a large stack of shrinkwrapped freebies including war fps that I haven't yet touched dating back to 2009. Usually I just give them away. I prefer the fps games where complete suspension of disbelief is required like the Dooms/Quakes. First time I played that and I raised the flashlight to see that I was about to get mauled I almost wet myself. No empathy required as it is so clearly not real. I however start to feel guilty about leading units in Civ to die. I empathize with you. :P Edit: Since this is getting downvoted I'll add another bit to clarify. Games that simulate anything are still pretty simple and if you don't bring your imagination to supplement the experience, it gets pretty boring pretty quickly. I find it more fun to play who I am than to go with the assumed pigeonhole for success.

deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
- orbitingpluto 15y ago
  You didn't follow the train of thought there. I was ascribing (in a tongue-in-cheek manner) empathy issues to the person who was against these games. Not the people who play these games. Thank you for playing.
  - Karunamon 15y ago
    Welp - that's what I get for browsing HN in a bad mood. My bad, deleting :)

drhayes9 15y ago

It's because, ultimately, games of all sorts (not just video) are in this funny realm where we don't think too much about what we're doing beyond the mechanics of the game. The story wrapped around the mechanics becomes the chrome added to the machine that generates the fun; required for the total experience, but maybe not the essence of the game. After the housing crisis in the US, do you still play Monopoly? How can you without sympathizing with all those people who got foreclosed on while the banking fatcats got rich? The tight feedback loops of videogames make us examine them more closely, but, truly, games have always done this. All that said, I don't enjoy CoD and the like because I'm not a FPS kind of guy, and I don't like the glamorization of war. But I had a lot of fun playing Warhammer 40k for a short time after college, so... does that make me a sociopath?

phaus 15y ago

Have you ever watched an action movie and enjoyed it? If so, you should be aware that it is essentially the same thing as playing a violent video game. Have you ever read a fantasy/sci-fi/historical novel where a conflict took place and people died? It's still the same thing. Did you ever read comic books or watch loony tunes? Both are full of violence. Aggressive behavior is sadly just a consequence of being a member of the animal kingdom. However, we are gifted with an intelligence that allows us to understand that violence is not a favorable attribute in any society, so we developed artificial outlets for our aggressive tendencies in the form of video games, movies, music, comic books, sports, and even literature. There isn't anything unhealthy about playing a violent video game. I suspect if someone did create the game that was described in the article, that most people who currently enjoy violent games wouldn't enjoy playing it, which incidentally happens to be the author's point.

Cushman 15y ago

"Bang! You're dead." "No I'm not! No I'm not!" Sociopaths? That's all these games are. If you seriously can't understand how normal, empathic people could enjoy playing pretend, then you, not they, are the one who has difficulty distinguishing reality from fiction.

vacri 15y ago

Can't men be innocents, too? Why do we only ever think of women and children as innocents?

Cadsby 15y ago
Because most, if not all, societies have tended to view women as helpless physically and therefore unable to adequately defend themselves. There are broadly three categories people take particular exception to with regards to violence - women, children and the elderly.