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I think it's unfortunate that this will snarl up pedestrians, cyclists, and other road users. At the same time: the relative lack of surveillance on drivers, es

I think it's unfortunate that this will snarl up pedestrians, cyclists, and other road users. At the same time: the relative lack of surveillance on drivers, especially industrial drivers, has always struck me as strange. There are very few things that are as disproportionately powerful and dangerous as a individual behind the wheel of a car; relative to the destruction that a distracted or impatient driver can cause, there's remarkably little surveillance that can support their victims in court. (This is separate from this footage eventually being used to sell ads, as well as it being used non-consensually to "investigate" other crimes. I think Schneier is right to highlight concerns around the latter.)

spacephysics 3y ago
I agree, and if there were a privacy centric system I may be inclined to support it, however I think with cameras and surveillance it’s akin to give and inch, they take a mile. We’re already down a dangerous path that isn’t really slowing down. Privacy in the digital age needs to be akin to no unlawful search and seizure. But instead the ones at the top have us bickering against each other about more mundane issues, in the grand scheme of things
- closeparen 3y ago
  One's thoughts, communications, and reading habits are their private business. Behavior towards other users of public roads, not so much.
TigeriusKirk 3y ago
I believe many Amazon delivery vans have always-on 360 cameras, as well as wifi scanners for location. It's interesting they could have the most up to date mapping of anyone, I wonder if they plan to do anything with it.
- hutzlibu 3y ago
  "It's interesting they could have the most up to date mapping of anyone, I wonder if they plan to do anything with it." No worries, Amazon has an excellent reputation, they would not think of doing shady things for money.
osigurdson 3y ago
What specifically do you want? Government cameras pointed at drivers?
- mlyle 3y ago
  Maybe: lots of cameras around with evidence available to discovery, but held by relatively many parties (dashcams, private vehicles, business owners) and without automated aggregation and processing of personal information.
  - osigurdson 3y ago
    I think we need to change the rule that it is legal to take anyone’s picture without asking. We need less cameras, not more.
    - mlyle 3y ago
      Lots of cameras have been good at curbing lots of abuses. Concentrated power with cameras-- one party controlling a lot of them, and doing automated aggregation of information-- has been bad for privacy. Lots of cameras in public without the abuses of aggregating information seems best.
- woodruffw 3y ago
  I’ll frame it in terms of outcomes: I don’t think any pedestrian or cyclist should be killed anonymously by a driver. I also don’t think drivers should feel empowered to casually disregard the laws of the road, as they currently do when they feel as if there are no consequences. That doesn’t have to mean “government cameras”; I’m open to any solution that achieves those goals, including stricter licensing, urban redesign, harsher fines, etc.
  - osigurdson 3y ago
    When discussing populations, stating that a certain outcome should never happen isn’t reasonable. We need to look at the current rate and try to improve upon it.
a2128 3y ago
Aren't dashcams a form of a distributed surveillance system? Witnesses or victims of an accident often capture valuable evidence with dashcams of what happened
- polygamous_bat 3y ago
  The comment above is talking about pedestrians and cyclists as well, who unfortunately have no option to have a "dashcam".
  - GuB-42 3y ago
    Bicycles can absolutely have dashcams, there are a few models on the market that attach to the rear because most collisions come from the rear. They have a built-in red light and can take continuous video and detect collisions.
  - npsimons 3y ago
    Not strictly true; I, for one, don't hop on my bicycle without my helmet camera turned on.
  - q845712 3y ago
    if they have money they can buy a gopro; I've known many cyclists who list having the record of a potential accident as one of their reasons for buying and using a gopro.
konschubert 3y ago
Agreed. An e-bike is limited to 25 km/h, but geofencing the top speed of cars is somehow not possible?
- kube-system 3y ago
  Basically all modern cars have electronic speed limiters, normally set to the speed rating of the originally equipped tires. Those bikes aren't geofenced either. Geofencing is hard because an official database doesn't exist, and cars can travel across thousands of jurisdictions.
- FormerBandmate 3y ago
  Speeding is massively profitable for local governments. Most DC speed cameras make things much less safe by creating artificial bottlenecks on highways (there’s a 40 mph speed camera on I-66 which is 75 most of the country), but they put them in place based on projected revenue increases
chinalaughsnow 3y ago
I just heard China laughing across the Pacific just about now.
closeparen 3y ago
I agree, but since we are effectively on an honor system for displaying valid, unobstructed plates and paying your tickets, more and more video-based accountability for driving behavior is a tax on conscientiousness that will make people feel like suckers and encourage them to defect.

spacephysics 3y ago

I agree, and if there were a privacy centric system I may be inclined to support it, however I think with cameras and surveillance it’s akin to give and inch, they take a mile. We’re already down a dangerous path that isn’t really slowing down. Privacy in the digital age needs to be akin to no unlawful search and seizure. But instead the ones at the top have us bickering against each other about more mundane issues, in the grand scheme of things

closeparen 3y ago
One's thoughts, communications, and reading habits are their private business. Behavior towards other users of public roads, not so much.

TigeriusKirk 3y ago

I believe many Amazon delivery vans have always-on 360 cameras, as well as wifi scanners for location. It's interesting they could have the most up to date mapping of anyone, I wonder if they plan to do anything with it.

hutzlibu 3y ago
"It's interesting they could have the most up to date mapping of anyone, I wonder if they plan to do anything with it." No worries, Amazon has an excellent reputation, they would not think of doing shady things for money.

osigurdson 3y ago

What specifically do you want? Government cameras pointed at drivers?

mlyle 3y ago
Maybe: lots of cameras around with evidence available to discovery, but held by relatively many parties (dashcams, private vehicles, business owners) and without automated aggregation and processing of personal information.
- osigurdson 3y ago
  I think we need to change the rule that it is legal to take anyone’s picture without asking. We need less cameras, not more.
  - mlyle 3y ago
    Lots of cameras have been good at curbing lots of abuses. Concentrated power with cameras-- one party controlling a lot of them, and doing automated aggregation of information-- has been bad for privacy. Lots of cameras in public without the abuses of aggregating information seems best.
woodruffw 3y ago
I’ll frame it in terms of outcomes: I don’t think any pedestrian or cyclist should be killed anonymously by a driver. I also don’t think drivers should feel empowered to casually disregard the laws of the road, as they currently do when they feel as if there are no consequences. That doesn’t have to mean “government cameras”; I’m open to any solution that achieves those goals, including stricter licensing, urban redesign, harsher fines, etc.
- osigurdson 3y ago
  When discussing populations, stating that a certain outcome should never happen isn’t reasonable. We need to look at the current rate and try to improve upon it.

a2128 3y ago

Aren't dashcams a form of a distributed surveillance system? Witnesses or victims of an accident often capture valuable evidence with dashcams of what happened

polygamous_bat 3y ago
The comment above is talking about pedestrians and cyclists as well, who unfortunately have no option to have a "dashcam".
- GuB-42 3y ago
  Bicycles can absolutely have dashcams, there are a few models on the market that attach to the rear because most collisions come from the rear. They have a built-in red light and can take continuous video and detect collisions.
- npsimons 3y ago
  Not strictly true; I, for one, don't hop on my bicycle without my helmet camera turned on.
- q845712 3y ago
  if they have money they can buy a gopro; I've known many cyclists who list having the record of a potential accident as one of their reasons for buying and using a gopro.

konschubert 3y ago

Agreed. An e-bike is limited to 25 km/h, but geofencing the top speed of cars is somehow not possible?

kube-system 3y ago
Basically all modern cars have electronic speed limiters, normally set to the speed rating of the originally equipped tires. Those bikes aren't geofenced either. Geofencing is hard because an official database doesn't exist, and cars can travel across thousands of jurisdictions.
FormerBandmate 3y ago
Speeding is massively profitable for local governments. Most DC speed cameras make things much less safe by creating artificial bottlenecks on highways (there’s a 40 mph speed camera on I-66 which is 75 most of the country), but they put them in place based on projected revenue increases

chinalaughsnow 3y ago

I just heard China laughing across the Pacific just about now.

closeparen 3y ago

I agree, but since we are effectively on an honor system for displaying valid, unobstructed plates and paying your tickets, more and more video-based accountability for driving behavior is a tax on conscientiousness that will make people feel like suckers and encourage them to defect.