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This isn't just a tech echo chamber, it's the YC/SV echo chamber. Nobody is seriously looking at AI for normal products, because it's not trustworthy. Never rea

This isn't just a tech echo chamber, it's the YC/SV echo chamber. Nobody is seriously looking at AI for normal products, because it's not trustworthy. Never really will be. Why do you think subways still have human operators? The combined investment & risk of full automation aren't worth it. It'll be useful for customer support bots, and backend things like spam filtering and other statistical analysis. But otherwise it's a flash in the pan.

flangola7 3y ago
That's been said about countless tasks that are now done by machines. Computer was a job title. Printer was a job title. Very important jobs that didn't have room to risk errors.
- bigmattystyles 3y ago
  Even computer used to be a job.
  - flangola7 3y ago
    That's what I just said...
    - bigmattystyles 3y ago
      Yea, I don't know what I happened in my brain... sorry :-P
porkbeer 3y ago
Not sure why this is downvoted but I feel the SV bubble is its own bubble within the tech bubble without a doubt. And the biggest issue is that most of my friends in it seem to think everyone lives like them.
electrondood 3y ago
It's an incredible tool for augmenting what humans already do. It shifts your role from grunt to output supervisor, imperative to declarative.
kortilla 3y ago
> Why do you think subways still have human operators? They don’t always. This sucked the wind out of your whole argument. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_driver-less_train_systems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_driver-less_train_syst...
- KaiserPro 3y ago
  Driverless trains doesn't mean no drivers. It means remote drivers. The DLR for example still has drivers, its just they are located somewhere other than the train.
  - detaro 3y ago
    No, it doesn't mean "remote drivers". Yes, an automated network is going to have people monitoring it and the ability of remote control for emergencies or failures, but that's not the same as "remote drivers" for normal operations. (in the case of DLR, the staff on the train can take control if needed, but other networks don't have staff on every train)
    - KaiserPro 3y ago
      I know this is getting into "technically correct" territory, but I think its reasonably important to qualify. As we are getting into AI automates <Hardthing> when it turns out that actually <Hardthing> was largely automated already. For the tube, places like the victoria, jubilee, the driver doesn't actually "drive" if that makes any sense. They open the doors and hold down a button that indicates the line is clear. The driver has no real control over speed under normal circumstances. for the tubes, the real blocker to "Driverless" trains is re-boring the tunnel to allow a walkway for evacuation. The DLR is centrally controlled for most of the time. In the sense that there is a central operator that opens and closes the doors and tells the train to move to the next station. the only difference is that there is no requirement for someone to hold down a button for the train to continue, the deadmans switch as it were.
      - detaro 3y ago
threeseed 3y ago
It's not just about it being trustworthy but about quality. AI looks to be great for ideation and development. But it's not there if you value a high quality output.
- matwood 3y ago
  > AI looks to be great for ideation and development. Agreed. I don't see this current version of AI as a calculator, but as an adaptable companion to work ideas with. The calculator side will continue to get better, but there's already so much value in the ideation side. Obvious is augmenting writing. The other I have found is in planning. If we expand to images, there's things like Firefly. Getting an email just right is so much easier/faster now. It's increased my productivity from that one thing alone. Coding is also very helpful, and while not always 100%, it presents ideas which then I can use to get to the solution. This is the first time I've seen a fairly straight line to a Star Trek like computer assistant at some point in the future.
- natch 3y ago
  If you see specific aspects of a chat reply where quality is bad, tell it. It will improve the answer. Iterating this you can get way beyond the quality of the first answer. You have full control over the quality but you have to bring something to the collaboration.
  - throwawaaarrgh 3y ago
    That's part of the problem. People think that using their own human bias to alter the machine is a good thing, when it's clear that human bias leads to negative outcomes. You need a separate thing to remove the human input bias. Quality is a complex thing that requires design, safeguards, process, as well as iteration. You can't design test suites or checklists with just AI, because you don't know if the AI will decide to override them because of some other instruction or signal. And how do you determine the quality of the signal anyway? The quality of input of each human varies. It's "too adaptive" for QA. You would need a QA for the QA.
    - 3y ago
Mizoguchi 3y ago
Subways have human operators for difference reasons not because trains cannot be fully automated. Some are partially automated because they run on old infrastructure which is difficult and expensive to revamp. Others are fully automated but regulations prohibit full autonomy, or labor is unionized and operators are guaranteed work. Automation is not AI anyway, automation today is done through control systems, that is sensors, some type of control like a PID loop (or more advanced Level 2 models) and devices that allow for controlled movement/positioning. There's no artificial intelligence there.

flangola7 3y ago

That's been said about countless tasks that are now done by machines. Computer was a job title. Printer was a job title. Very important jobs that didn't have room to risk errors.

bigmattystyles 3y ago
Even computer used to be a job.
- flangola7 3y ago
  That's what I just said...
  - bigmattystyles 3y ago
    Yea, I don't know what I happened in my brain... sorry :-P

porkbeer 3y ago

Not sure why this is downvoted but I feel the SV bubble is its own bubble within the tech bubble without a doubt. And the biggest issue is that most of my friends in it seem to think everyone lives like them.

electrondood 3y ago

It's an incredible tool for augmenting what humans already do. It shifts your role from grunt to output supervisor, imperative to declarative.

kortilla 3y ago

> Why do you think subways still have human operators? They don’t always. This sucked the wind out of your whole argument. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_driver-less_train_systems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_driver-less_train_syst...

KaiserPro 3y ago
Driverless trains doesn't mean no drivers. It means remote drivers. The DLR for example still has drivers, its just they are located somewhere other than the train.
- detaro 3y ago
  No, it doesn't mean "remote drivers". Yes, an automated network is going to have people monitoring it and the ability of remote control for emergencies or failures, but that's not the same as "remote drivers" for normal operations. (in the case of DLR, the staff on the train can take control if needed, but other networks don't have staff on every train)
  - KaiserPro 3y ago
    I know this is getting into "technically correct" territory, but I think its reasonably important to qualify. As we are getting into AI automates <Hardthing> when it turns out that actually <Hardthing> was largely automated already. For the tube, places like the victoria, jubilee, the driver doesn't actually "drive" if that makes any sense. They open the doors and hold down a button that indicates the line is clear. The driver has no real control over speed under normal circumstances. for the tubes, the real blocker to "Driverless" trains is re-boring the tunnel to allow a walkway for evacuation. The DLR is centrally controlled for most of the time. In the sense that there is a central operator that opens and closes the doors and tells the train to move to the next station. the only difference is that there is no requirement for someone to hold down a button for the train to continue, the deadmans switch as it were.
    - detaro 3y ago

threeseed 3y ago

It's not just about it being trustworthy but about quality. AI looks to be great for ideation and development. But it's not there if you value a high quality output.

matwood 3y ago
> AI looks to be great for ideation and development. Agreed. I don't see this current version of AI as a calculator, but as an adaptable companion to work ideas with. The calculator side will continue to get better, but there's already so much value in the ideation side. Obvious is augmenting writing. The other I have found is in planning. If we expand to images, there's things like Firefly. Getting an email just right is so much easier/faster now. It's increased my productivity from that one thing alone. Coding is also very helpful, and while not always 100%, it presents ideas which then I can use to get to the solution. This is the first time I've seen a fairly straight line to a Star Trek like computer assistant at some point in the future.
natch 3y ago
If you see specific aspects of a chat reply where quality is bad, tell it. It will improve the answer. Iterating this you can get way beyond the quality of the first answer. You have full control over the quality but you have to bring something to the collaboration.
- throwawaaarrgh 3y ago
  That's part of the problem. People think that using their own human bias to alter the machine is a good thing, when it's clear that human bias leads to negative outcomes. You need a separate thing to remove the human input bias. Quality is a complex thing that requires design, safeguards, process, as well as iteration. You can't design test suites or checklists with just AI, because you don't know if the AI will decide to override them because of some other instruction or signal. And how do you determine the quality of the signal anyway? The quality of input of each human varies. It's "too adaptive" for QA. You would need a QA for the QA.
  - 3y ago

Mizoguchi 3y ago

Subways have human operators for difference reasons not because trains cannot be fully automated. Some are partially automated because they run on old infrastructure which is difficult and expensive to revamp. Others are fully automated but regulations prohibit full autonomy, or labor is unionized and operators are guaranteed work. Automation is not AI anyway, automation today is done through control systems, that is sensors, some type of control like a PID loop (or more advanced Level 2 models) and devices that allow for controlled movement/positioning. There's no artificial intelligence there.