7 ms·

> In Western culture, if someone suddenly and unexpectedly confessed this to you so quickly you would start running, I think. As a Chinese I can't wrap my head

> In Western culture, if someone suddenly and unexpectedly confessed this to you so quickly you would start running, I think. As a Chinese I can't wrap my head around the concept of running away because someone loves you. So to enter a relationship with someone you have to not love them while still loving them...?! Do western people all have fear of commitment? I'm just glad I'm married now (to a Chinese girl) and not having to deal with this mess.

nonethewiser 3y ago
Surely you can think of some example of coming on too strong.
- girvo 3y ago
  The article itself even has a half dozen examples of (Japanese) men doing exactly that.
geraldwhen 3y ago
Yes, many westerners, at least in America, fear commitment. There is a doomed generation that believes they will find their soulmate in their mid 30s and start a family in their mid 40s, despite this being a biological delusion.
- nextworddev 3y ago
  Try explaining much lower birth rates in China then
vore 3y ago
I love you. There, did I scare you?
imbnwa 3y ago
Mainstream American culture conceives of amorous relationships as fundamentally a fantasy of fortunate spontaneity, "the stars and planets coming into alignment", rather than something explicitly worked at formally; formalism, explicit terms, these are antagonistic and disrupt this fantasy of things 'just happening', and so have to be carefully approached, if at all. This is not exhaustive, America is a big place, but in the major cities and on social media you will more often than not come upon this. Hence why you'll hear terms like 'chemistry', 'rizz', 'ick', etc amongst Millennials and Gen Z at least, as these terms describe positive and negative attenuations of the fantasy of spontaneity. The majority of my co-workers are Tamil and Kaneda folk from India, many of whom are women, who're all in arranged marriages. I learned a lot talking to them about this experience as its mere existence is anathema in mainstream American culture.
- crazygringo 3y ago
  It seems very clear which version you prefer, but why do you call it a "fantasy" of spontaneity? Because it happens all the time, it's no fantasy at all. You might not like it, but it very much exists. It's not just something from the movies, it's how basically everyone I know who's married got started. You're right that arranged marriage is very much anathema to mainstream American culture, since arguably the most central value of the country is that of individual choice/liberty.
  - imbnwa 3y ago
    >It seems very clear which version you prefer, but why do you call it a "fantasy" of spontaneity? I should've been clearer: 'fantasy' doesn't mean 'false' here. More like 'embellishment', an additive, framing, to reality that makes it more palatable and exchangeable (symbolically). The point of bringing up arranged marriage demonstrates spontaneity itself is more radical than is framed in the case of mainstream rhetoric around amorous relationships rather than a partisan approval.
  - midoridensha 3y ago
    The problem with Americans and Indian arranged marriages is that they don't understand that, for modern arranged marriages, they're usually not forced upon anyone, but instead are basically a system where the parents play matchmaker.
spywaregorilla 3y ago
If you actually have a relationship it wouldn't be surprising. Although it would be surprising to develop such a relationship without formally starting it earlier. The implication is that someone telling you they love you out of the blue implies they very likely do not know you well enough to justify such a sentiment.
331c8c71 3y ago
> So to enter a relationship with someone you have to not love them while still loving them...? It's weird and even offending to hear "I love you" (said seriously) from a person who doesn't know you well. My take is that you can say you are _in_ love and this may sound fine if delivered right. Still, better be sure that there is at least some mutual sympathy. Also highly language-specific I guess. EDIT: I personally find the non-verbal communication preceding the relationships much more fascinating. I am also curious if there are cultures with a polite probing mechanism which are not humiliating for both parties regardless of the outcome (reciprocity or the lack of such).
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- staunton 3y ago
  > I am also curious if there are cultures with a polite probing mechanism which are not humiliating for both parties I think to some degree, it's supposed to be humiliating in the failure case. The type of confession being discussed here is a "costly social signal". The willingness to bear the humiliation that ensues in the failure case is part of what makes the confession meaningful and a social trope in the first place. That being said, there's a lots of cultures with established social signals for relationship status. For example, the outdated "Ms" vs "Mrs" distinction, which is present on lots of languages/cultures, engagement rings, certain fashion choices... I guess in "western culture", the solution for probing is "asking someone out a few times". In the failure case, the rejecting party can say "I'd love to but I'm really busy at the moment" a few times and the rejected party takes the hint. I'm not sure this can be any less humiliating, barring some stuff involving cryptography.
- mock-possum 3y ago
  You could also say you’re falling in love with them - that’s the beginning of the process, that’s not quite full on “I love you.” “I’m falling for you” or “I’ve been having a crush on you” are also sort of ‘intro’s to full-blown love.
aidenn0 3y ago
I'm a native English speaker and I think it's at least partly a translation issue; if you translate "好きです" as "I like you" then it is completely normal to confess that way. Translating it as "I love you" makes it a lot more weighty and creepy. I don't really speak Japanese, but it seems like 好き is somewhere between "like" and "love."
tel 3y ago
In my understanding of culture, native born American, to tell someone you “love” them implies a great deal of intimacy and trust. The word implies something that must be built over time and is unique and lasting. It often has an implication of confirmation after you’ve dated someone long enough to re-affirm that you want an even more serious relationship. There are lots of variations on that theme, but the point is that when it’s offered without the backing of a safe and intimate, developed relationship, it reads more like “I am obsessed with you”. It can suggest a failure to be in touch with your own emotions and/or a gigantic failure to see and appreciate the recipient as an individual. An obsession with surface appearance or even the speaker’s own fantasy about the recipient. “How can you love me? We barely know one another. I don’t know that I currently trust you enough to have even shown the parts of me you could claim to love. You must love your own conception of me and I don’t trust that.” That said, variations on “I like you” are basically the same sort of relationship-opening confession and are often welcome. It’s considered normal to “like” someone’s public and non-intimate social identity enough to want to get to know them more (through more intimate dating). The other big confession to note is “can we be exclusive/go steady?” This one implies you like someone enough that you’d prefer if you and they focus exclusively on this relationship. Its rejection may end the relationship (or may not, it can be done lightly) and usually comes between “like” and “love”, if it comes at all. Not everyone practices dating non-exclusively.
neel_k 3y ago
Actually, there are very similar situations in Chinese culture! My understanding is that when someone gives you a gift, in Chinese culture there is a social obligation to give them a gift of similar value at some point in the future. So giving a very expensive gift can be a very rude gesture, because it effectively inflicts a large, unexpected expense on the recipient. In Western culture, there is a similar dynamic when it comes to dating and courtship. The general expectation is that men will ask the women they are interested in, and the women will then accept or refuse the offer. The difficulty with this is that it puts women in the position of having to reject someone who is 20 cm taller/20 kg heavier than them -- this can be very scary. So it is artful/polite for a man asking a woman out, especially in the initial stages, to do so in a way that is ambiguous enough that if she decides she doesn't want to continue, she can back away without having to forcefully reject him. An overly strong confession of love removes this ambiguity, and thereby forces a woman into the uncomfortable position of having to directly reject the man. This is rude, in exactly the same way that giving someone an overly-expensive gift is rude in Chinese culture. Naturally, though, in China very close friends wouldn't be bothered by how expensive gifts are, and that in the West, a woman pining for a particular man would be delighted if he directly declared his love for her. But we have etiquette to handle the failure cases, not the success cases! Anyway, I'm always surprised how even though people are basically the same everywhere, and share the same desires and impulses, we end up building very different cultures. It's just amazing how situations can be radically different and utterly familiar at the same time.
mock-possum 3y ago
two people grow to love one another together - it’s a simultaneous process. A sudden / unexpected confession implies that feelings are one-sided. The two immediate responses would be “but I don’t love you,” or “how could you love me, you don’t know really know me.” To enter a relationship with someone, you have to like what you’ve seen of them, enough so that you’re willing to work together to see what could be between you. Again, it takes two willing participants. If one of you falls for the other faster, that’s not necessarily a bad thing, but along the lines of those responses I gave as examples above, the expectation is that when one confesses the other is ready for it.

nonethewiser 3y ago

Surely you can think of some example of coming on too strong.

girvo 3y ago
The article itself even has a half dozen examples of (Japanese) men doing exactly that.

geraldwhen 3y ago

Yes, many westerners, at least in America, fear commitment. There is a doomed generation that believes they will find their soulmate in their mid 30s and start a family in their mid 40s, despite this being a biological delusion.

nextworddev 3y ago
Try explaining much lower birth rates in China then

vore 3y ago

I love you. There, did I scare you?

imbnwa 3y ago

Mainstream American culture conceives of amorous relationships as fundamentally a fantasy of fortunate spontaneity, "the stars and planets coming into alignment", rather than something explicitly worked at formally; formalism, explicit terms, these are antagonistic and disrupt this fantasy of things 'just happening', and so have to be carefully approached, if at all. This is not exhaustive, America is a big place, but in the major cities and on social media you will more often than not come upon this. Hence why you'll hear terms like 'chemistry', 'rizz', 'ick', etc amongst Millennials and Gen Z at least, as these terms describe positive and negative attenuations of the fantasy of spontaneity. The majority of my co-workers are Tamil and Kaneda folk from India, many of whom are women, who're all in arranged marriages. I learned a lot talking to them about this experience as its mere existence is anathema in mainstream American culture.

crazygringo 3y ago
It seems very clear which version you prefer, but why do you call it a "fantasy" of spontaneity? Because it happens all the time, it's no fantasy at all. You might not like it, but it very much exists. It's not just something from the movies, it's how basically everyone I know who's married got started. You're right that arranged marriage is very much anathema to mainstream American culture, since arguably the most central value of the country is that of individual choice/liberty.
- imbnwa 3y ago
  >It seems very clear which version you prefer, but why do you call it a "fantasy" of spontaneity? I should've been clearer: 'fantasy' doesn't mean 'false' here. More like 'embellishment', an additive, framing, to reality that makes it more palatable and exchangeable (symbolically). The point of bringing up arranged marriage demonstrates spontaneity itself is more radical than is framed in the case of mainstream rhetoric around amorous relationships rather than a partisan approval.
- midoridensha 3y ago
  The problem with Americans and Indian arranged marriages is that they don't understand that, for modern arranged marriages, they're usually not forced upon anyone, but instead are basically a system where the parents play matchmaker.

spywaregorilla 3y ago

If you actually have a relationship it wouldn't be surprising. Although it would be surprising to develop such a relationship without formally starting it earlier. The implication is that someone telling you they love you out of the blue implies they very likely do not know you well enough to justify such a sentiment.

331c8c71 3y ago

> So to enter a relationship with someone you have to not love them while still loving them...? It's weird and even offending to hear "I love you" (said seriously) from a person who doesn't know you well. My take is that you can say you are _in_ love and this may sound fine if delivered right. Still, better be sure that there is at least some mutual sympathy. Also highly language-specific I guess. EDIT: I personally find the non-verbal communication preceding the relationships much more fascinating. I am also curious if there are cultures with a polite probing mechanism which are not humiliating for both parties regardless of the outcome (reciprocity or the lack of such).

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
staunton 3y ago
> I am also curious if there are cultures with a polite probing mechanism which are not humiliating for both parties I think to some degree, it's supposed to be humiliating in the failure case. The type of confession being discussed here is a "costly social signal". The willingness to bear the humiliation that ensues in the failure case is part of what makes the confession meaningful and a social trope in the first place. That being said, there's a lots of cultures with established social signals for relationship status. For example, the outdated "Ms" vs "Mrs" distinction, which is present on lots of languages/cultures, engagement rings, certain fashion choices... I guess in "western culture", the solution for probing is "asking someone out a few times". In the failure case, the rejecting party can say "I'd love to but I'm really busy at the moment" a few times and the rejected party takes the hint. I'm not sure this can be any less humiliating, barring some stuff involving cryptography.
mock-possum 3y ago
You could also say you’re falling in love with them - that’s the beginning of the process, that’s not quite full on “I love you.” “I’m falling for you” or “I’ve been having a crush on you” are also sort of ‘intro’s to full-blown love.

aidenn0 3y ago

I'm a native English speaker and I think it's at least partly a translation issue; if you translate "好きです" as "I like you" then it is completely normal to confess that way. Translating it as "I love you" makes it a lot more weighty and creepy. I don't really speak Japanese, but it seems like 好き is somewhere between "like" and "love."

tel 3y ago

In my understanding of culture, native born American, to tell someone you “love” them implies a great deal of intimacy and trust. The word implies something that must be built over time and is unique and lasting. It often has an implication of confirmation after you’ve dated someone long enough to re-affirm that you want an even more serious relationship. There are lots of variations on that theme, but the point is that when it’s offered without the backing of a safe and intimate, developed relationship, it reads more like “I am obsessed with you”. It can suggest a failure to be in touch with your own emotions and/or a gigantic failure to see and appreciate the recipient as an individual. An obsession with surface appearance or even the speaker’s own fantasy about the recipient. “How can you love me? We barely know one another. I don’t know that I currently trust you enough to have even shown the parts of me you could claim to love. You must love your own conception of me and I don’t trust that.” That said, variations on “I like you” are basically the same sort of relationship-opening confession and are often welcome. It’s considered normal to “like” someone’s public and non-intimate social identity enough to want to get to know them more (through more intimate dating). The other big confession to note is “can we be exclusive/go steady?” This one implies you like someone enough that you’d prefer if you and they focus exclusively on this relationship. Its rejection may end the relationship (or may not, it can be done lightly) and usually comes between “like” and “love”, if it comes at all. Not everyone practices dating non-exclusively.

neel_k 3y ago

Actually, there are very similar situations in Chinese culture! My understanding is that when someone gives you a gift, in Chinese culture there is a social obligation to give them a gift of similar value at some point in the future. So giving a very expensive gift can be a very rude gesture, because it effectively inflicts a large, unexpected expense on the recipient. In Western culture, there is a similar dynamic when it comes to dating and courtship. The general expectation is that men will ask the women they are interested in, and the women will then accept or refuse the offer. The difficulty with this is that it puts women in the position of having to reject someone who is 20 cm taller/20 kg heavier than them -- this can be very scary. So it is artful/polite for a man asking a woman out, especially in the initial stages, to do so in a way that is ambiguous enough that if she decides she doesn't want to continue, she can back away without having to forcefully reject him. An overly strong confession of love removes this ambiguity, and thereby forces a woman into the uncomfortable position of having to directly reject the man. This is rude, in exactly the same way that giving someone an overly-expensive gift is rude in Chinese culture. Naturally, though, in China very close friends wouldn't be bothered by how expensive gifts are, and that in the West, a woman pining for a particular man would be delighted if he directly declared his love for her. But we have etiquette to handle the failure cases, not the success cases! Anyway, I'm always surprised how even though people are basically the same everywhere, and share the same desires and impulses, we end up building very different cultures. It's just amazing how situations can be radically different and utterly familiar at the same time.

mock-possum 3y ago

two people grow to love one another together - it’s a simultaneous process. A sudden / unexpected confession implies that feelings are one-sided. The two immediate responses would be “but I don’t love you,” or “how could you love me, you don’t know really know me.” To enter a relationship with someone, you have to like what you’ve seen of them, enough so that you’re willing to work together to see what could be between you. Again, it takes two willing participants. If one of you falls for the other faster, that’s not necessarily a bad thing, but along the lines of those responses I gave as examples above, the expectation is that when one confesses the other is ready for it.