13 ms·

Writing as a form of thinking

160 points by lopespm 3y ago

raincole 3y ago
I only actually realized the "writing is thinking" since ChatGPT became a thing. Sometimes I try very hard to describe my problem to ChatGPT. Then... I don't even press send, since in the process of describing my problem I've garnered enough "thought points" to solve the problem myself.
- InsOp 3y ago
  much like a rubberduck
  - wilkystyle 3y ago
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_duck_debugging https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_duck_debugging
- BLKNSLVR 3y ago
  I do the same when having to formulate an email to ask a colleague a question. In the writing of the question I realise I know parts of the answer and can actually ask a more specific question covering the gaps of the answers I worked out.
neilv 3y ago
> If I disagree with the book, sometimes it takes a long time to read the books because I’m writing so much in the margin I guess Bill Gates doesn't have to worry about resale value.
rrgok 3y ago
At the risk of getting downvoted to hell. I'm getting nauseated with all this "writing this...", "writing that..." and overall note-taking related topics. It is kinda worse than AI, because at least with AI I can read people getting fed up with it. With writing, nobody dares to say anything negative about it. Only praise. I really wish someone takes the time to write the negatives of "Writing as a form thinking...". Something like "Write as a form a wasting time" or better "Writing as a form of deluding oneself in being productive". It might be me, but I think writing is overrated, moreover in HN. The people around me, mostly don't care about writing other than code. If writing helps you, fine do it. I'm not against it.
- jazzyb 3y ago
  You might be interested in reading Socrates (Plato): https://newlearningonline.com/literacies/chapter-1/socrates-on-the-forgetfulness-that-comes-with-writing https://newlearningonline.com/literacies/chapter-1/socrates-...
  - greazy 3y ago
    Thank you for sharing this.
- samsquire 3y ago
  I would rather read your writing about the mental model or problem solving, problem definition, data structures you solved with your code than the code itself. mpweiher: "Show me your flowchart and conceal your tables, and I shall continue to be mystified. Show me your tables, and I won't usually need your flowchart; it'll be obvious." Fred Brooks, The Mythical Man Month If I understand the problem your code solves, then I can probably understand the words you use to describe the solution to that problem and therefore understand the steps your code takes to implement that solution. Documentation is underrated. A well documented codebase is one that doesn't tell you what the code does (the code tells you what the code does in minute detail) but tells you the problem and the solution the code is solving. Please tell me what the code does from a problem solving perspective. If I can't understand your code, then your code is legacy to me unfortunately. Tell me the problem and mental model the code is implementing and I can rewrite it or avoid rewriting it because I have your implementation, I understand it and I don't need to rewrite it.
- mandmandam 3y ago
  > "Writing as a form thinking..." > "Write as a form a wasting time" > "Writing as a form of deluding oneself in being productive" Hmm. > writing is overrated Take this kindly - you're doing it wrong. Which is fine; not everyone is a wordy thinker. That doesn't mean it's overrated.
- biscuits1 3y ago
  I like to read insight into people's thinking who normally are not writers, they provide interesting meta insight, democratize in a easy way to publish. I recently learned writing is two things, what you know and how to market yourself. While I'd say a good amount is more of the former, HN highlights some of the absolute best pieces of the prior. People should write. And those that touch a nerve probably did it well enough do receive critical feedback.
heresie-dabord 3y ago
Writing is the conversion of thought into notation. At its highest value, the act of writing applies rigor to sustained thought. And, of course, the notation can be shared. People who read are constantly recompiling the great works.
samsquire 3y ago
I get impatient with learning from speech/audio, and PowerPoint slides or YouTube videos. I would rather read something, even a whitepaper. I journal every day since 2013. I originally used the desktop wiki software written in Python called WikidPad. Nowadays I just use either GitHubs README.md and edit using the web interface or markdown editor Typora on Windows. Writing is a satisfying way of capturing or clarifying thoughts or thinking itself. I journal software ideas everyday on my journals (see my profile) Please blog and share your thoughts, it is inspirational to me
taopai 3y ago
I love keeping a personal diary. Typically, I write around 500-1000 words daily, but there are days when I let myself go and write up to 3000 or more. Over the course of a year, this adds up to about +200_000 words. I used to be very disorganized and never found the right tool to do this job. Using .md files are a good solution but I am grateful I found Emacs and org-mode last year, it's amazing. For this purpose and much more. Keeping a personal diary has proven to be an awesome entertainment. I tend to forget many things over time. Particularly during challenging or memorable experiences, I often forget how I felt and what thoughts occupied my mind. Taking the time to relax and read about interesting weeks from the previous year feels like immersing myself in a novel written by a complete stranger. If you have an inclination towards writing, I encourage you to give it a try. Personally, I used to dislike writing, but once I started, my perspective changed. If you don't get yourself to like it, then do something else. Some people think the best while walking, others need to talk to a themselves or friend. I must mention that writing and reading in my native language have significantly improved my speech. I used to struggle with finding the right words during casual conversations and often ended up rambling. Now, uncommon words come to me effortlessly, and now I usually assist others in finding the right words when they're stuck. I think LLM are great for getting feedback, specially in other languages. You can ask the bot to rewrite one difficult paragraph and study the differences, or check if a native would use the same words you wrote. It's great for learning and experimenting.
- lloydatkinson 3y ago
  Do you have a TLDR of this often mentioned org mode? I have never used emacs. From what I have seen it’s an append only text file with none of the markdown formatting?
  - ekianjo 3y ago
    vimwiki works perfectly for a diary as well - its a breeze to use for that.
  - benheath 3y ago
    https://orgmode.org/quickstart.html https://orgmode.org/quickstart.html I’d say you’re mostly right. I’ve used org mode a lot in the past. Now I use One Note, which I’m sure would draw a lot of complaints from this group, but it works for me. I think use whatever works best for you, try different things and stick with what you end up liking.
CSSer 3y ago
I don’t know about y’all but I think I’ve extracted more value out of this platform from the comments I’ve decided not to post than the ones I have. That doesn’t mean I didn’t write them. On the contrary, I’ve done research and written paragraphs in response to many (contextually healthy) arguments on here only to ultimately change my mind when I discovered that outlining and framing my thoughts on the matter critically either wasn’t as persuasive as I had originally thought when I read them back or it just didn’t matter as much to me as my initial emotional response made me think it did. This never would’ve happened if I simply read the comment and let it wash over me. I read a comment on here recently that included an excerpt from a letter Kurt Vonnegut wrote before his death to some students encouraging them to write a poem, never show it to anyone, tear it up into a million tiny pieces and scatter it into disparate trashcans. He called this an act of “becoming”, and I think he had a point. Perhaps we need to start telling students this less obliquely, but I wouldn’t be surprised if (or at least I believe there’s hope that) many educators are already ahead of me here.
- barrysteve 3y ago
  Writing on paper gets bad ideas out of my head better than any other medium. I honestly think that typing on computing devices and writing on paper are conceptually two separate ideas. And should have a finely measured difference in name. Programming is often called 'writing a program' and it probably is very similar. There is something about typing on a computer that encourages me to forget what I typed in. Typing on a kb and monitor is like writing in symbolic language to me, even if the words I'm typing are in natural language. Writing on paper permenantly marks the paper and that makes a massive difference to my mind. It's stored, referrable and my body can also physically destroy it. The muscle linkages to make the shape of a glyph or character with my pen on paper is concrete.
  - wiz21c 3y ago
    this 100% ! When I write, it's usually to help my brain think: what I write remains a bit longer in my brain (say minutes instead of seconds). Moreover, using pen and paper is so much more "free form" than typing, and instinctive too. If I have to make drawing, a pen and a few seconds are what I need; with a computer I have to figure out what tools to use (program, icons for line drawing, choosing a color). It's so much more productive. When I type, it's more like instructing the computer what to do. However, when I write documentation or an email it's more like formalizing a thought that was first thought about in other ways. This is mostly true when I'm doing hard thinking tasks such as algorithms, maths, arguments, etc. I wonder if all of this depends on the tasks or my way of working or if this is more universal... Interestingly, there are a lot of maths tutorials on the web where people use notepads or even paper instead of computers when explaining. The opposite is 3Blue1Brown which presents "finished" product, result of typing.
inatreecrown2 3y ago
I bet my 2 karma points that this post was written by gpt.
- steve_yeow 3y ago
  100% GPT
- lopespm 3y ago
  If my word is enough, this article was actually written by me. Although it would be quite ironic if it was written entirely by GPT, with no revisions whatsoever :)
bilekas 3y ago
Slightly tangential but when working on a particular problem at work, grabbing the notepad and paper is my go to. I feel like it helps me organise the info without being overwhelmed. I write down something and mentally my kind can almost not worry about focusing too much on that particular part and continue to work through the problem. I actually feel proper frustration now if I don't have one available, but on the writing itself for writings sake, I've never been interested or even felt the urge to write thoughts. The idea of people owning journals always was fascinating to me. After reading the comments though I might give it a real effort to try and see.
- mettamage 3y ago
  I want to be paperless. What is the handiest way of incorporating a stylus into my workflow? I have an M1 Mac and don't also want to carry an extra iPad.
  - bilekas 3y ago
    Isn't there already stylus pads in the vein of an accessory? I'm almost sure I've seen small little trackpad like devices that work with the stylus. Found one anyway : https://www.amazon.it/XP-PEN-Tavoletta-Grafica-Ultrasottile-Batteria/dp/B078Y52K1M/ref=asc_df_B078Y52K1M/?tag=googshopit-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=279843273514&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=10177103996937848624&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1008141&hvtargid=pla-437777971843&psc=1 https://www.amazon.it/XP-PEN-Tavoletta-Grafica-Ultrasottile-...
mercurialsolo 3y ago
Anything which requires doing is a form of deeper engagement and thereby understanding. Much like writing, teaching and explaining concepts to others also forces us to think through more. I wonder if research around transformation of concepts from our brain into any medium (writing, visual or data) forces more thinking around the concept. Even as I write this, I draft it, redraft it, eliminate and add to explain the idea. There is also a form of emergence in the concept as I put the thoughts to words.
kingkongjaffa 3y ago
My favourite blog in this topic is https://notes.andymatuschak.org/z7kEFe6NfUSgtaDuUjST1oczKKzQQeQWk4Dbc https://notes.andymatuschak.org/z7kEFe6NfUSgtaDuUjST1oczKKzQ... Better note-taking” misses the point; what matters is “better thinking”
kordlessagain 3y ago
I've been using language models to write things since I got into the OpenAI API Beta in March, 2021. I use them to analyze and understand documents (pages/PDFs/raw text). Several projects I've created from scratch embed and index document collections in a variety of ways to increase the relevance for prompt building. Before I understood embeddings, and how to use them, I build a search index using Solr for the document texts to use for assembly of a prompt. I use language models to write code that I would normally search for on Google (and I used it to parse and write Solr queries when my parsers failed) and I use them to write blog posts about the topics I'm thinking about. I sometime use them to write plans or emails. Using language models makes me faster at what I do and frequently it seems like what I'm doing with them is increasing the quality of my output. Blog posts that I would antagonize about publishing are cleaned up and made ready for submission in a matter of an hour or so. Before, it took me several days to get happy with the results and even then I would continue to refine it after publishing. Language models don't come up with the ideas for me, however. All the things I use that it produces was heavily prompted and discussed with myself. At all times I'm driving the conversation and what is being communicated. It's how the information is communicated that is being augmented now. Clarifying my fragmented thoughts on paper becomes far easier to transform into something another can consume easily. As a related example, over the past 10 years or so, I've been obsessed with thinking about consciousness (or thinking about thinking). After talking to many about this, and reading as much as I can about it that has been written, I've come to the conclusion that many of us think differently. Coming up with a plausible argument that explains this thought in a clearer manner would be one example of how I use language models. After a long interaction with ChatGPT4 on this subject, which included Buddhist thought, Aphantasia, Bicameral Mind (itself controversial) and more, I issued the following request: "Summarize the argument people think differently with a comparison to Aphants not being able to use mental or auditory information recall." Here's the answer it gave: > The comparison implies that just as individuals with aphantasia lack visual mental imagery, others may have variations in their cognitive processes that affect their ability to use or manipulate mental or auditory information. These differences in information processing can result in diverse thinking styles, problem-solving approaches, and ways of perceiving and understanding the world. If we think about the lack of something as an edge case of what is known, then maybe we can "outline" the idea using the "edges" of the concept... If you have Aphantasia writing is very much a way of thinking about thinking about things. Like CSSer, it gives me a way to do critical thinking about a subject, without relying on visual or audio information recall. Language models enhance my natural ability to "only think" by allowing me to write and read more about a subject that interests me. Using critical thinking, I try to understand and verify all the text I'm reading makes sense, which include what I've written as well as what the model has generated. It's only a "stochastic parrot" if you fail to think critically about the output before sharing it with others, would be one way to put it. In Bhikkhu Bodhi's functional model of the mind [1], the six sense bases are building blocks for a unified consciousness. They are often referred to as the "Six Sense Spheres" or "Six Sense Doors." These six sense bases are: Eye, Ear, Nose, Tongue, Body and Mind. Body does things like feel heat, or hunger. Mind is the mental sense base, which encompasses the cognitive and perceptive functions of the mind, enables the perception of mental objects, thoughts, emotions, and ideas. The computed language model furthers this: > In some individuals, the mind has the capacity to produce internal imagery or auditory experiences. This ability allows them to generate mental representations or simulations of visual or auditory stimuli without the presence of external sensory input. These internal experiences can vary in vividness, clarity, and detail from person to person. > Internal imagery refers to the mental generation of visual images within the mind's eye. Individuals with this ability can conjure up mental pictures, scenes, or objects, similar to "seeing" something in their mind without the actual physical stimuli being present. > Similarly, internal audio refers to the experience of hearing sounds, voices, or music within the mind. People who possess this ability can mentally replay or recall auditory stimuli, creating an internal auditory experience that resembles hearing without external sound sources. I am a person with a condition labeled "Aphantasia". For me, writing is a means of thinking and that thinking is now being augmented by language models. If I choose to approach the process with a critical view of the content, then it is most certainly not a waste of my time. How others interact and think with it is going to vary widely however, so any statement I make about how language models affect others will be irrational and wrong, in many cases. And if what I said doesn't make sense to you, maybe this will: > Ultimately, the availability of language models serves as a reminder that every individual possesses a unique view of the world, and their thoughts and expressions may resonate differently with others. Embracing this diversity of perspectives and engaging in respectful and open dialogue can lead to a richer understanding and appreciation of the multifaceted nature of human cognition and communication. [1] https://www.researchgate.net/figure/this-figure-shows-the-basic-functional-model-in-this-model-as-compared-to-Bhikkhu_fig2_315940922 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/this-figure-shows-the-ba...
SanjayMehta 3y ago
> For example, it’s essential for me to have a notebook at hand to take notes during meetings and formal discussions. I write phrases, loose words, make small diagrams, jot down some reminders. Some of them are never to be re-read again, others I revisit to structure them down into a concise structure. Most of all, they help me think about a problem. This struck a chord. I've extensive notebooks going back years which I've never really re-read because I remember most of them. But if I didn't write it down, I can't remember the meeting/lecture/thought. The brain is a strange device.
brudgers 3y ago
Writing is thinking. I know I read that on HN. I think it was a Graham essay. But maybe not. Anyway, it changed things for me. It allowed me to embrace the part of my crazy for typing into boxes. To let writing be its own reward (though I can't deny I like internet points, too). I stopped trying to win arguments. And started learning to step away from my outrages. Because I wrote because of the chaos in me, not chaos in the world. Ah, I feel better now. Not sure if I will leave this up. That's how it was with me when I wrote this. YMMV.
- interroboink 3y ago
  > YMMV I like a lot of your points, but for me personally, replace "writing" with "drawing" and it's a lot more relevant. I expect for others it could be "playing an instrument" or "dancing". The point is to express yourself in a way that works for you. Writing gets an over-large share of influence in our society, IMO. There is something special about writing and language, in how specific it they be, but there are also things special about those other forms of expression I mentioned, unique to them. I guess I'm just saying that the important thing is "find a way to express yourself." Writing is just one piece of that puzzle.
  - brudgers 3y ago
    Writing is what would answer the question “what are you thinking?” in ordinary circumstances. I draw and play music too. Sure, in an architecture office, a drawing would be a conventional answer. So would three chords in a rehearsal space. But in normal circumstances, like these, writing is how we express thoughts. You didn’t respond with a link to SoundCloud or a hosted jpeg. I get what you are saying. And I am not arguing that writing is the best way of thinking or the only way. Sorry for not being clear. I was only talking about my thoughts. Not yours.
    - interroboink 3y ago
      Oh no worries; I am not trying to pick bones, just offer my perspective (: I realize you were quoting another source, I just get slightly annoyed by the phrase "writing is thinking" and its various other permutations that come up. For me, that is very much not the case. I agree that writing/speech is the normal way to answer a (written/spoken) question. It's how I would clumsily describe my thoughts to someone in that circumstance. But it is not how I would form those thoughts. Though I have also had conversations with people basically saying they can't imagine thinking without words — the two are one and the same, to them. Lots of weird brains out there; I enjoy it.
gesaint 3y ago
[dead]
aatd86 3y ago
Somehow I will be a bit contrarian. I believe that people relt on writing as a crutch if they do it too often. Thinking clearly should be a great mental exercise that people don't reap the benefits of since it is easier to write. Easier because slower. Sharp wits require to train speed. Like mental calculus.

160 points by lopespm 3y ago

I only actually realized the "writing is thinking" since ChatGPT became a thing. Sometimes I try very hard to describe my problem to ChatGPT. Then... I don't even press send, since in the process of describing my problem I've garnered enough "thought points" to solve the problem myself.

InsOp 3y ago
much like a rubberduck
- wilkystyle 3y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_duck_debugging https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_duck_debugging
BLKNSLVR 3y ago
I do the same when having to formulate an email to ask a colleague a question. In the writing of the question I realise I know parts of the answer and can actually ask a more specific question covering the gaps of the answers I worked out.

neilv 3y ago

> If I disagree with the book, sometimes it takes a long time to read the books because I’m writing so much in the margin I guess Bill Gates doesn't have to worry about resale value.

rrgok 3y ago

At the risk of getting downvoted to hell. I'm getting nauseated with all this "writing this...", "writing that..." and overall note-taking related topics. It is kinda worse than AI, because at least with AI I can read people getting fed up with it. With writing, nobody dares to say anything negative about it. Only praise. I really wish someone takes the time to write the negatives of "Writing as a form thinking...". Something like "Write as a form a wasting time" or better "Writing as a form of deluding oneself in being productive". It might be me, but I think writing is overrated, moreover in HN. The people around me, mostly don't care about writing other than code. If writing helps you, fine do it. I'm not against it.

jazzyb 3y ago
You might be interested in reading Socrates (Plato): https://newlearningonline.com/literacies/chapter-1/socrates-on-the-forgetfulness-that-comes-with-writing https://newlearningonline.com/literacies/chapter-1/socrates-...
- greazy 3y ago
  Thank you for sharing this.
samsquire 3y ago
I would rather read your writing about the mental model or problem solving, problem definition, data structures you solved with your code than the code itself. mpweiher: "Show me your flowchart and conceal your tables, and I shall continue to be mystified. Show me your tables, and I won't usually need your flowchart; it'll be obvious." Fred Brooks, The Mythical Man Month If I understand the problem your code solves, then I can probably understand the words you use to describe the solution to that problem and therefore understand the steps your code takes to implement that solution. Documentation is underrated. A well documented codebase is one that doesn't tell you what the code does (the code tells you what the code does in minute detail) but tells you the problem and the solution the code is solving. Please tell me what the code does from a problem solving perspective. If I can't understand your code, then your code is legacy to me unfortunately. Tell me the problem and mental model the code is implementing and I can rewrite it or avoid rewriting it because I have your implementation, I understand it and I don't need to rewrite it.
mandmandam 3y ago
> "Writing as a form thinking..." > "Write as a form a wasting time" > "Writing as a form of deluding oneself in being productive" Hmm. > writing is overrated Take this kindly - you're doing it wrong. Which is fine; not everyone is a wordy thinker. That doesn't mean it's overrated.
biscuits1 3y ago
I like to read insight into people's thinking who normally are not writers, they provide interesting meta insight, democratize in a easy way to publish. I recently learned writing is two things, what you know and how to market yourself. While I'd say a good amount is more of the former, HN highlights some of the absolute best pieces of the prior. People should write. And those that touch a nerve probably did it well enough do receive critical feedback.

heresie-dabord 3y ago

Writing is the conversion of thought into notation. At its highest value, the act of writing applies rigor to sustained thought. And, of course, the notation can be shared. People who read are constantly recompiling the great works.

samsquire 3y ago

I get impatient with learning from speech/audio, and PowerPoint slides or YouTube videos. I would rather read something, even a whitepaper. I journal every day since 2013. I originally used the desktop wiki software written in Python called WikidPad. Nowadays I just use either GitHubs README.md and edit using the web interface or markdown editor Typora on Windows. Writing is a satisfying way of capturing or clarifying thoughts or thinking itself. I journal software ideas everyday on my journals (see my profile) Please blog and share your thoughts, it is inspirational to me

taopai 3y ago

I love keeping a personal diary. Typically, I write around 500-1000 words daily, but there are days when I let myself go and write up to 3000 or more. Over the course of a year, this adds up to about +200_000 words. I used to be very disorganized and never found the right tool to do this job. Using .md files are a good solution but I am grateful I found Emacs and org-mode last year, it's amazing. For this purpose and much more. Keeping a personal diary has proven to be an awesome entertainment. I tend to forget many things over time. Particularly during challenging or memorable experiences, I often forget how I felt and what thoughts occupied my mind. Taking the time to relax and read about interesting weeks from the previous year feels like immersing myself in a novel written by a complete stranger. If you have an inclination towards writing, I encourage you to give it a try. Personally, I used to dislike writing, but once I started, my perspective changed. If you don't get yourself to like it, then do something else. Some people think the best while walking, others need to talk to a themselves or friend. I must mention that writing and reading in my native language have significantly improved my speech. I used to struggle with finding the right words during casual conversations and often ended up rambling. Now, uncommon words come to me effortlessly, and now I usually assist others in finding the right words when they're stuck. I think LLM are great for getting feedback, specially in other languages. You can ask the bot to rewrite one difficult paragraph and study the differences, or check if a native would use the same words you wrote. It's great for learning and experimenting.

lloydatkinson 3y ago
Do you have a TLDR of this often mentioned org mode? I have never used emacs. From what I have seen it’s an append only text file with none of the markdown formatting?
- ekianjo 3y ago
  vimwiki works perfectly for a diary as well - its a breeze to use for that.
- benheath 3y ago
  https://orgmode.org/quickstart.html https://orgmode.org/quickstart.html I’d say you’re mostly right. I’ve used org mode a lot in the past. Now I use One Note, which I’m sure would draw a lot of complaints from this group, but it works for me. I think use whatever works best for you, try different things and stick with what you end up liking.

CSSer 3y ago

I don’t know about y’all but I think I’ve extracted more value out of this platform from the comments I’ve decided not to post than the ones I have. That doesn’t mean I didn’t write them. On the contrary, I’ve done research and written paragraphs in response to many (contextually healthy) arguments on here only to ultimately change my mind when I discovered that outlining and framing my thoughts on the matter critically either wasn’t as persuasive as I had originally thought when I read them back or it just didn’t matter as much to me as my initial emotional response made me think it did. This never would’ve happened if I simply read the comment and let it wash over me. I read a comment on here recently that included an excerpt from a letter Kurt Vonnegut wrote before his death to some students encouraging them to write a poem, never show it to anyone, tear it up into a million tiny pieces and scatter it into disparate trashcans. He called this an act of “becoming”, and I think he had a point. Perhaps we need to start telling students this less obliquely, but I wouldn’t be surprised if (or at least I believe there’s hope that) many educators are already ahead of me here.

barrysteve 3y ago
Writing on paper gets bad ideas out of my head better than any other medium. I honestly think that typing on computing devices and writing on paper are conceptually two separate ideas. And should have a finely measured difference in name. Programming is often called 'writing a program' and it probably is very similar. There is something about typing on a computer that encourages me to forget what I typed in. Typing on a kb and monitor is like writing in symbolic language to me, even if the words I'm typing are in natural language. Writing on paper permenantly marks the paper and that makes a massive difference to my mind. It's stored, referrable and my body can also physically destroy it. The muscle linkages to make the shape of a glyph or character with my pen on paper is concrete.
- wiz21c 3y ago
  this 100% ! When I write, it's usually to help my brain think: what I write remains a bit longer in my brain (say minutes instead of seconds). Moreover, using pen and paper is so much more "free form" than typing, and instinctive too. If I have to make drawing, a pen and a few seconds are what I need; with a computer I have to figure out what tools to use (program, icons for line drawing, choosing a color). It's so much more productive. When I type, it's more like instructing the computer what to do. However, when I write documentation or an email it's more like formalizing a thought that was first thought about in other ways. This is mostly true when I'm doing hard thinking tasks such as algorithms, maths, arguments, etc. I wonder if all of this depends on the tasks or my way of working or if this is more universal... Interestingly, there are a lot of maths tutorials on the web where people use notepads or even paper instead of computers when explaining. The opposite is 3Blue1Brown which presents "finished" product, result of typing.

inatreecrown2 3y ago

I bet my 2 karma points that this post was written by gpt.

steve_yeow 3y ago
100% GPT
lopespm 3y ago
If my word is enough, this article was actually written by me. Although it would be quite ironic if it was written entirely by GPT, with no revisions whatsoever :)

bilekas 3y ago

Slightly tangential but when working on a particular problem at work, grabbing the notepad and paper is my go to. I feel like it helps me organise the info without being overwhelmed. I write down something and mentally my kind can almost not worry about focusing too much on that particular part and continue to work through the problem. I actually feel proper frustration now if I don't have one available, but on the writing itself for writings sake, I've never been interested or even felt the urge to write thoughts. The idea of people owning journals always was fascinating to me. After reading the comments though I might give it a real effort to try and see.

mettamage 3y ago
I want to be paperless. What is the handiest way of incorporating a stylus into my workflow? I have an M1 Mac and don't also want to carry an extra iPad.
- bilekas 3y ago
  Isn't there already stylus pads in the vein of an accessory? I'm almost sure I've seen small little trackpad like devices that work with the stylus. Found one anyway : https://www.amazon.it/XP-PEN-Tavoletta-Grafica-Ultrasottile-Batteria/dp/B078Y52K1M/ref=asc_df_B078Y52K1M/?tag=googshopit-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=279843273514&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=10177103996937848624&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1008141&hvtargid=pla-437777971843&psc=1 https://www.amazon.it/XP-PEN-Tavoletta-Grafica-Ultrasottile-...

mercurialsolo 3y ago

Anything which requires doing is a form of deeper engagement and thereby understanding. Much like writing, teaching and explaining concepts to others also forces us to think through more. I wonder if research around transformation of concepts from our brain into any medium (writing, visual or data) forces more thinking around the concept. Even as I write this, I draft it, redraft it, eliminate and add to explain the idea. There is also a form of emergence in the concept as I put the thoughts to words.

kingkongjaffa 3y ago

My favourite blog in this topic is https://notes.andymatuschak.org/z7kEFe6NfUSgtaDuUjST1oczKKzQQeQWk4Dbc https://notes.andymatuschak.org/z7kEFe6NfUSgtaDuUjST1oczKKzQ... Better note-taking” misses the point; what matters is “better thinking”

kordlessagain 3y ago

I've been using language models to write things since I got into the OpenAI API Beta in March, 2021. I use them to analyze and understand documents (pages/PDFs/raw text). Several projects I've created from scratch embed and index document collections in a variety of ways to increase the relevance for prompt building. Before I understood embeddings, and how to use them, I build a search index using Solr for the document texts to use for assembly of a prompt. I use language models to write code that I would normally search for on Google (and I used it to parse and write Solr queries when my parsers failed) and I use them to write blog posts about the topics I'm thinking about. I sometime use them to write plans or emails. Using language models makes me faster at what I do and frequently it seems like what I'm doing with them is increasing the quality of my output. Blog posts that I would antagonize about publishing are cleaned up and made ready for submission in a matter of an hour or so. Before, it took me several days to get happy with the results and even then I would continue to refine it after publishing. Language models don't come up with the ideas for me, however. All the things I use that it produces was heavily prompted and discussed with myself. At all times I'm driving the conversation and what is being communicated. It's how the information is communicated that is being augmented now. Clarifying my fragmented thoughts on paper becomes far easier to transform into something another can consume easily. As a related example, over the past 10 years or so, I've been obsessed with thinking about consciousness (or thinking about thinking). After talking to many about this, and reading as much as I can about it that has been written, I've come to the conclusion that many of us think differently. Coming up with a plausible argument that explains this thought in a clearer manner would be one example of how I use language models. After a long interaction with ChatGPT4 on this subject, which included Buddhist thought, Aphantasia, Bicameral Mind (itself controversial) and more, I issued the following request: "Summarize the argument people think differently with a comparison to Aphants not being able to use mental or auditory information recall." Here's the answer it gave: > The comparison implies that just as individuals with aphantasia lack visual mental imagery, others may have variations in their cognitive processes that affect their ability to use or manipulate mental or auditory information. These differences in information processing can result in diverse thinking styles, problem-solving approaches, and ways of perceiving and understanding the world. If we think about the lack of something as an edge case of what is known, then maybe we can "outline" the idea using the "edges" of the concept... If you have Aphantasia writing is very much a way of thinking about thinking about things. Like CSSer, it gives me a way to do critical thinking about a subject, without relying on visual or audio information recall. Language models enhance my natural ability to "only think" by allowing me to write and read more about a subject that interests me. Using critical thinking, I try to understand and verify all the text I'm reading makes sense, which include what I've written as well as what the model has generated. It's only a "stochastic parrot" if you fail to think critically about the output before sharing it with others, would be one way to put it. In Bhikkhu Bodhi's functional model of the mind [1], the six sense bases are building blocks for a unified consciousness. They are often referred to as the "Six Sense Spheres" or "Six Sense Doors." These six sense bases are: Eye, Ear, Nose, Tongue, Body and Mind. Body does things like feel heat, or hunger. Mind is the mental sense base, which encompasses the cognitive and perceptive functions of the mind, enables the perception of mental objects, thoughts, emotions, and ideas. The computed language model furthers this: > In some individuals, the mind has the capacity to produce internal imagery or auditory experiences. This ability allows them to generate mental representations or simulations of visual or auditory stimuli without the presence of external sensory input. These internal experiences can vary in vividness, clarity, and detail from person to person. > Internal imagery refers to the mental generation of visual images within the mind's eye. Individuals with this ability can conjure up mental pictures, scenes, or objects, similar to "seeing" something in their mind without the actual physical stimuli being present. > Similarly, internal audio refers to the experience of hearing sounds, voices, or music within the mind. People who possess this ability can mentally replay or recall auditory stimuli, creating an internal auditory experience that resembles hearing without external sound sources. I am a person with a condition labeled "Aphantasia". For me, writing is a means of thinking and that thinking is now being augmented by language models. If I choose to approach the process with a critical view of the content, then it is most certainly not a waste of my time. How others interact and think with it is going to vary widely however, so any statement I make about how language models affect others will be irrational and wrong, in many cases. And if what I said doesn't make sense to you, maybe this will: > Ultimately, the availability of language models serves as a reminder that every individual possesses a unique view of the world, and their thoughts and expressions may resonate differently with others. Embracing this diversity of perspectives and engaging in respectful and open dialogue can lead to a richer understanding and appreciation of the multifaceted nature of human cognition and communication. [1] https://www.researchgate.net/figure/this-figure-shows-the-basic-functional-model-in-this-model-as-compared-to-Bhikkhu_fig2_315940922 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/this-figure-shows-the-ba...

SanjayMehta 3y ago

> For example, it’s essential for me to have a notebook at hand to take notes during meetings and formal discussions. I write phrases, loose words, make small diagrams, jot down some reminders. Some of them are never to be re-read again, others I revisit to structure them down into a concise structure. Most of all, they help me think about a problem. This struck a chord. I've extensive notebooks going back years which I've never really re-read because I remember most of them. But if I didn't write it down, I can't remember the meeting/lecture/thought. The brain is a strange device.

brudgers 3y ago

Writing is thinking. I know I read that on HN. I think it was a Graham essay. But maybe not. Anyway, it changed things for me. It allowed me to embrace the part of my crazy for typing into boxes. To let writing be its own reward (though I can't deny I like internet points, too). I stopped trying to win arguments. And started learning to step away from my outrages. Because I wrote because of the chaos in me, not chaos in the world. Ah, I feel better now. Not sure if I will leave this up. That's how it was with me when I wrote this. YMMV.

interroboink 3y ago
> YMMV I like a lot of your points, but for me personally, replace "writing" with "drawing" and it's a lot more relevant. I expect for others it could be "playing an instrument" or "dancing". The point is to express yourself in a way that works for you. Writing gets an over-large share of influence in our society, IMO. There is something special about writing and language, in how specific it they be, but there are also things special about those other forms of expression I mentioned, unique to them. I guess I'm just saying that the important thing is "find a way to express yourself." Writing is just one piece of that puzzle.
- brudgers 3y ago
  Writing is what would answer the question “what are you thinking?” in ordinary circumstances. I draw and play music too. Sure, in an architecture office, a drawing would be a conventional answer. So would three chords in a rehearsal space. But in normal circumstances, like these, writing is how we express thoughts. You didn’t respond with a link to SoundCloud or a hosted jpeg. I get what you are saying. And I am not arguing that writing is the best way of thinking or the only way. Sorry for not being clear. I was only talking about my thoughts. Not yours.
  - interroboink 3y ago
    Oh no worries; I am not trying to pick bones, just offer my perspective (: I realize you were quoting another source, I just get slightly annoyed by the phrase "writing is thinking" and its various other permutations that come up. For me, that is very much not the case. I agree that writing/speech is the normal way to answer a (written/spoken) question. It's how I would clumsily describe my thoughts to someone in that circumstance. But it is not how I would form those thoughts. Though I have also had conversations with people basically saying they can't imagine thinking without words — the two are one and the same, to them. Lots of weird brains out there; I enjoy it.

gesaint 3y ago

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aatd86 3y ago

Somehow I will be a bit contrarian. I believe that people relt on writing as a crutch if they do it too often. Thinking clearly should be a great mental exercise that people don't reap the benefits of since it is easier to write. Easier because slower. Sharp wits require to train speed. Like mental calculus.