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Kokuhaku: Japan’s Love Confessing Culture (2013)
- theogravity 3y agoI read carefully the first half of the article then scanned the rest, so I may have missed it; it didn't seem to also mention "The moon is beautiful, isn't it?", which is a poetic way of saying I love you as well: https://www.tsuki.world/world/the-moon-is-beautiful-isnt-it https://www.tsuki.world/world/the-moon-is-beautiful-isnt-it https://www.wikihow.com/The-Moon-Is-Beautiful-Isn%27t-It https://www.wikihow.com/The-Moon-Is-Beautiful-Isn%27t-It
- soraminazuki 3y agoAs mentioned in the link, that comes from classic literature so it might not be super common knowledge. Looking it up turns up a bunch of "what does it mean" articles. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=月が綺麗ですね&kl=jp-jp&kp=-1&ia=web https://duckduckgo.com/?q=月が綺麗ですね&kl=jp-jp&kp=-1&ia=web
- bluepizza 3y agoThat's extremely archaic and specific, and most people wouldn't know about it. I suspect that, if explained, most people would find it off putting.
- bmoxb 3y agoBased on my (somewhat limited) experience, most people are familiar with the phrase but wouldn't use it in any serious context.
- arrakeen 3y agoi find it hard to accept that the origin of the phrase has nothing to do with the fact that 月 (tsuki, moon) sounds similar to 好き (suki, like/love). can any native speakers chime in?
- bluepizza 3y agoSoseki was very refined and wouldn't go for such a pun.
- jareklupinski 3y agothe second half is where the gold is imo
- minebreaker 3y agoIt's not about being poetic. Soseki thought "I love you" was too obscene for a Japanese standard at that time. Although I don't think it applies to modern Japan, it certainly resonates with me somehow. I don't trust people who talk about love.
- linguae 3y agoAs an American who spends a lot of time traveling to Japan and who had experience living there (and who has dreams of moving back there once I pay off my student loans), I’ve done this type of confession twice; it’s quite different from the ambiguity that often occurs with forming relationships in America where people don’t know exactly where they stand. While it doesn’t remove all ambiguity (does she like me? Why is she holding my arm?), I like the being able to clearly articulate my feelings, and I also like the clear understanding from both parties not to behave like a couple until we mutually agree to become a couple. I generally find this aspect of Japanese dating culture remarkably refreshing compared to America.
- gautamcgoel 3y agoDid the girls accept?
- PartiallyTyped 3y agoThe same perspective exists in multiple places in Europe as far as I can tell. It certainly does where I come from.
- 331c8c71 3y agoSurprising for me. Can you maybe share some links?
- PartiallyTyped 3y agoNot really, just some anecdotes.
- MikeTheGreat 3y ago> Not really, just some anecdotes. He said, not sharing the anecdotes :) Having lived in the US all my life I'd love to hear more. Even if you don't want to share the anecdotes I'd be curious to know which European countries do this. And if you don't want to share that's fine, too. If I want 'slice of life' anecdotes there's always This American Life :)
- scubbo 3y ago> it was kind of rude to send a text to people while they are probably sleeping Not the point of the article, but this is a personal bugbear of mine - no it wasn't. Text-based communication is asynchronous. It's rude to _expect_ that someone is present and available if you message them out of the blue (or, rather - rude to get upset if they don't immediately reply), but it's not rude to send the message in the first place. Particularly - it is never correct to send a Delayed Message on Slack "because it's the evening/weekend and I don't want to bother them". The four possible outcomes are: * You send delayed; they could have benefitted from the information earlier (e.g. there's an outage overnight and your delayed message contained helpful information) -> your delay had a negative effect * You send delayed; they read the message when they come online again during business hours -> your delayed message had no impact (assuming you correctly guessed their business hours) The only situation where "sending delayed" has a positive impact is where there is a culture whereby a message _must_ be replied to at the time it's sent. In such a situation, you need to fix that broken culture rather than working around it with delay-hacks.
- SoftTalker 3y agoNo, I think it's inconsiderate to text people when they are likely sleeping. If you have kids/family you typically don't silence your phone at night in case there's an emergency. So if I get a text at 03:00 I'm likely to wake up and look at it. You're the one sending the message, so you're the one who should wait to do it when it it will be convenient for the recipient. If you're texting me in the middle of sleeping hours, you're telling me that your convenience is more important to you than mine.
- jtriangle 3y ago'Do not disturb' settings have been granular enough for awhile now, such that this is no longer a problem unless you want it to be.
- FooBarWidget 3y agoIt might surprise you how many people don't know how to, or don't bother with, setting DnD. Or they simply forgot this time to enable it. Sure you can blame the other person. But what good outcome do you gain by such an attitude?
- FooBarWidget 3y ago> In Western culture, if someone suddenly and unexpectedly confessed this to you so quickly you would start running, I think. As a Chinese I can't wrap my head around the concept of running away because someone loves you. So to enter a relationship with someone you have to not love them while still loving them...?! Do western people all have fear of commitment? I'm just glad I'm married now (to a Chinese girl) and not having to deal with this mess.
- nonethewiser 3y agoSurely you can think of some example of coming on too strong.
- girvo 3y agoThe article itself even has a half dozen examples of (Japanese) men doing exactly that.
- geraldwhen 3y agoYes, many westerners, at least in America, fear commitment. There is a doomed generation that believes they will find their soulmate in their mid 30s and start a family in their mid 40s, despite this being a biological delusion.
- nextworddev 3y agoTry explaining much lower birth rates in China then
- vore 3y agoI love you. There, did I scare you?
- imbnwa 3y agoMainstream American culture conceives of amorous relationships as fundamentally a fantasy of fortunate spontaneity, "the stars and planets coming into alignment", rather than something explicitly worked at formally; formalism, explicit terms, these are antagonistic and disrupt this fantasy of things 'just happening', and so have to be carefully approached, if at all. This is not exhaustive, America is a big place, but in the major cities and on social media you will more often than not come upon this. Hence why you'll hear terms like 'chemistry', 'rizz', 'ick', etc amongst Millennials and Gen Z at least, as these terms describe positive and negative attenuations of the fantasy of spontaneity. The majority of my co-workers are Tamil and Kaneda folk from India, many of whom are women, who're all in arranged marriages. I learned a lot talking to them about this experience as its mere existence is anathema in mainstream American culture.
- cubefox 3y agoI find it really lame that this article includes a long list of "fails" instead of successful examples.
- resolutebat 3y agoSuccessful confessions are all alike; every unsuccessful confession is unsuccessful in its own way. Slightly more seriously, the format of a confession is pretty basic ("I like you, wanna hang?") and the article does include several canonical versions. But at the end of day it's just confirming that the attraction is mutual, and most of the fails are about randos totally failing this part.
- cubefox 3y agoI think the article implied pretty clearly that some things which count as successful confessions in Japan would be viewed as awkward or otherwise inappropriate in Western countries. It would have been interesting to see a list of such examples in order to see the difference in culture.
- mylasttour 3y agoThe successful, reliable format is right there in the beginning: Saying that one sentence face-to-face in private. That's half the point of the article, that the culture is to follow that one clear format to avoid ambiguity, and that other formats are seen as creepy, privacy-invading, etc.
- golemiprague 3y ago[dead]
- minikomi 3y agoI'm just shocked they didn't use the Shinjuku edition "LOVE" sculpture. Missed opportunity! https://maps.app.goo.gl/JGE9smpyCJte7p5z8 https://maps.app.goo.gl/JGE9smpyCJte7p5z8
- fuzzythinker 3y agoSame design and look, don't get the "Missed opportunity"
- minikomi 3y agoIs the article not about subtle differences around love in Japan?
- crazygringo 3y agoThis feels very similar to namorar in Brazilian culture, which is a verb that is basically means "become/be an exclusive couple". If you've started going on dates, then at some point someone will ask the other to namorar. It's a very explicit ask, e.g. "let's be boyfriend/girlfriend". While in the US it's not unusual to just organically become a couple and never actually discuss it "officially", the official ask is usually a really meaningful event in a relationship in Brazil. Technically it means that hooking up with someone else before it wasn't cheating, but afterwards it definitely is. But namorar is definitely not "love". And you'd never declare it before going on a first date. Usually it would be after several weeks/months of dating, depending on how serious you felt about each other.
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- esafak 3y agosounds like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Going_steady https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Going_steady
- crazygringo 3y ago> Is it like or is it love? It's definitely just like. Sure, we say "I loved that donut" or "I love her personality!" but you'd never just straight-up say "I love you" with that meaning because it would be completely misunderstood. So this whole article seems premised on a mistranslation that the author brings up but never actually admits.
- franciscop 3y agoComing from Spain we have a similar difference between like and love that you don't in English so it might be difficult to grasp. Basically we have a middle-level between both of them: 1. I like you. Me gustas. Suki-desu -> very early in the relationship, or to start off 2. [blank]. Te quiero. Daisuki-desu -> formal couple, to express feelings of love 2.5 I love you -> formal couple after long time dating I believe, a bit stronger than those two terms above 3. [blank]. Te amo. Aishiteru -> poetic, life-partners, basically we can get married The "I love you" in English sits somewhere between those two in Spanish/Japanese. If forced to put it in a group, probably the second one would be better and I'd say there's no 3rd one equivalent, since it's really not as strong as the 3rd one, but stronger than the 2nd one.
- throwawaymaths 3y agoThere's also "koi shiteru" which is even higher maybe "you're my soulmate"
- vsnf 3y ago>koi shiteru Are you sure this isn't actually "aishiteru (愛してる)"? I've never heard of 'koishiteru', but 'aishiteru' occupies roughly the same level you described. Actually, I have heard of 'koishiteru' (which I assume is 恋してる) but usually in the euphemistic context of sex. Additionally, and not totally related, "soulmate", rendered in katakana (ソールメイト, sorumeito) is often used to breezily describe someone, often a coworker or classmate, with whom you have some level of camaraderie or friendship with. It is a perfectly unserious concept, which is amusing given its weightiness in English.
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- jonjon16 3y agoI know the grass seems always greener on the other side and this culture has its own set of problems but I still think I would prefer this over what the west has to offer in the dating market. I absolutely hate the ambiguity of the relationship in the west, “Dating? I’m not sure, we have only started sleeping together a month ago. They might still be seeing other people.” And yes, not everywhere is like this but around my parts, seeking a serious relationship is a recipe for disaster and not something worth spending any sort of asset for.
- seszett 3y ago> the west > “Dating? I’m not sure, we have only started sleeping together a month ago. They might still be seeing other people.” This seems specifically American to me, and I think this is a weird thing to most Europeans.
- makeitdouble 3y agoThe grass looks greener because the article depicts a reality that follows TV plots and comics. In practice teenagers are horny and will fuck around if they can, and their relationship can be as blurry. Same for adults going to bars and having one night stands, or ducking it out while drunk after a party and being in limbo trying to to sort it out for weeks afterwards. Same for online dating of course, wanting to be sure the alchemy is there before mentally commiting isn't some culture's exclusive trait.
- mock-possum 3y agoThe only ambiguity is what you put there - my past two serious relationships have started with hookups, progresses to hangouts, and eventually reached the point where I’ve said, “hey, do you want to be my boyfriend?” Followed by a discussion about what that means re: exclusivity etc. If you haven’t had that, it’s because you’ve chosen not to partake.
- asdfasgasdgasdg 3y agoIt doesn't have to be ambiguous. If you want to be exclusive with someone, just say so. If they don't want to be exclusive with you after a month of dating, you're probably never going to get there and you're better off cutting your losses.
- astrange 3y agoBtw, "confession" is a mistranslation of kokuhaku and I'm pretty sure it actually means "declaration".
- level3 3y ago"Confession" is fine as a translation. 告白 can be used for admitting to crimes, confessing one's love, revealing a secret, etc. It would never be used for a declaration where there is no sense of guilt/shame/embarrassment involved.
- musicale 3y ago> I would like to have a relationship with you with the objective of an eventual marriage Probably saves a lot of time. On the other hand, Japan's population is declining. > Can you financially support me and my parents Seems pretty honest, and maybe good to know up front. > He suddenly showed me his pay slip See above.
- johnea 3y agoI thought it was a really entertaining article! In contrast to a big difference from US culture, I found most of the examples to be pretty much the same kind of stuff that happens here. The article is obviously written for young female readers, this is the author's perspective, and all of the impressions, reactions and comments are from females. So here's something a young womaan isn't typically going to notice: depending on whether the guy looks more like a j-pop idol, or the sterotype of the ugly guy that the last girl at the gokon gets stuck with; whatever words are said will be interpreted to give the opposite responce to the two otokos 8-) In most cases this is probably subconscous. It's also not at all unique to Japan. Although in Japanese culture this can easily be included in 面子を立て, or saving face.
- fomine3 3y agoIs this culture exported to overseas via drama, manga, and anime? Love is obviously a popular theme for story.