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Some are born with goals, some find their own goals, and some have goals thrust upon them. Being a smart kid can be hard. Parents, teachers and peers see that

Some are born with goals, some find their own goals, and some have goals thrust upon them. Being a smart kid can be hard. Parents, teachers and peers see that mythical attribute "potential" and push you in directions to reach it. Get A's in school? Gotta be a doctor or lawyer. (OK, that ages me, today they'd be pushing for programmer.) Graduating college with a degree you never wanted must be depressing for the person who sees it as a work-prison and a life sentence. Better to fail, to drop out, to disappointed all, to get a chance to start over. The very lucky few, and I count myself among them, have both potential and the freedom to find their own path - the thing that provides pleasure - where people pay you to do what you love. And adults around you who accept that, even if it's not a high-prestige occupation. (Programming in the 80s wasn't the career choice it is today.) Ivy league students don't get there by themselves. A life-time of adults help you, pay for you, drive you around, push you. To those whom much is given, much is expected. And the weight of expectation can sit very heavy.

promiseofbeans 3y ago
I love 12th night!
cantrevealname 3y ago
> Gotta be a doctor or lawyer ... today they'd be pushing for programmer. Where are you getting that from? Parents and teachers still push for doctor or lawyer for smart kids. Only if doctor or lawyer is unattainable would they suggest programmer. Furthermore, everybody still perceives doctors and lawyers to have higher status than programmers. Just look at TV shows from the 80s vs recent years: The high prestige characters are still doctors and lawyers, and also business leaders, sports figures, and military, but never programmers or engineers.
- noisy_boy 3y ago
  Forget about status, I would rather not subject my kid to the constant catchup treadmill; jquery then, SPA yesterday, AI today, god-knows-what tomorrow, its like a never ending thing - its not enough to be stressed by work all week long, now you need to spend the couple of days of break also on learning the next flavor of the month. Sure lawyers have to catchup with changing laws and doctors need to catchup with new medical breakthroughs but I doubt it is as much drinking from the firehose as programming is.
  - lordnacho 3y ago
    The real difference is lawyers and doctors are protected by law from competition. If programmers had similar gatekeeping, the union would make sure everyone had access to training from time to time.
  - inglor_cz 3y ago
    I am 45 and I had to catch up on a lot of things. I started programming in 1995 and my language of choice was Pascal 5.5. Catching up is hard, but it is also "gym for your brain". Plenty of people grow complacent and mentally lazy, because they do not face any additional demands over their careers. It is even possible that mental training postpones dementia.
    - noisy_boy 3y ago
      > It is even possible that mental training postpones dementia. Thats what I tell myself as the saving grace (sometimes it is indeed a lot of fun).
- theGnuMe 3y ago
  Doctors get 200k minimum in almost any community which is why the profession is coveted. You basically never see a poor doctor in the USA. This is because of intense regulation of residency spots. Honestly, if you are a smart American kid who likes research get an MD and/or an MD/PhD. That way you aren't competing with the foreign grad student labor pool. The MD is the golden ticket. Of course if you hate medicine it isn't. Lawyers are more variable and a lot of the work is rote contracts. Programming is more of the wild west since you can practice without a license as they say.
complex_exp 3y ago
> Ivy league students don't get there by themselves. A life-time of adults help you. See, this is what I do not get. I got without excessive effort into a top university in Europe. I never had to be taken care nearly this much. Learned calculus at 14-15 by buying an old book in a used book store. Learned programming at around the same age by reading C++ tutorials and doing programming competitions (ACM style, but easier). Ran in various science competitions, here indeed teachers helped me by giving me books, exercises and guidance, with greater or smaller success. Most of my university peers had similar histories. I believe I would be admitted to an Ivy school if I were American, based on my professional experience with people that studied there. What gives? Is it the last >=2 decades that changed the picture too much? Is it somehow an exclusively American problem? Where are the self-motivated kids, why aren't they taking most spots in those schools? Did something systematically kill the motivation? The slight (or perhaps not so slight) neurosis and coping mechanisms like "I wasn't even trying, so I didn't fail" imply that those kids are way, way past their comfort zone. Being this far out is very unhealthy, can even be lethal.
- atleastoptimal 3y ago
  It's way easier to get into elite schools in Europe than top tier American ivies.
  - complex_exp 3y ago
    That may be it, under-supply of schools. What's required there besides perfect, or near perfect SAT scores? Also, I've always wondered why so few Americans decide to study in Europe. I understand some might not be able to afford the remote study, but this doesn't explain everything. Language is not a problem, every top university offers all, or almost all master's level courses also in English.
  - blackbear_ 3y ago
    Citation needed?
    - lordnacho 3y ago

promiseofbeans 3y ago

I love 12th night!

cantrevealname 3y ago

> Gotta be a doctor or lawyer ... today they'd be pushing for programmer. Where are you getting that from? Parents and teachers still push for doctor or lawyer for smart kids. Only if doctor or lawyer is unattainable would they suggest programmer. Furthermore, everybody still perceives doctors and lawyers to have higher status than programmers. Just look at TV shows from the 80s vs recent years: The high prestige characters are still doctors and lawyers, and also business leaders, sports figures, and military, but never programmers or engineers.

noisy_boy 3y ago
Forget about status, I would rather not subject my kid to the constant catchup treadmill; jquery then, SPA yesterday, AI today, god-knows-what tomorrow, its like a never ending thing - its not enough to be stressed by work all week long, now you need to spend the couple of days of break also on learning the next flavor of the month. Sure lawyers have to catchup with changing laws and doctors need to catchup with new medical breakthroughs but I doubt it is as much drinking from the firehose as programming is.
- lordnacho 3y ago
  The real difference is lawyers and doctors are protected by law from competition. If programmers had similar gatekeeping, the union would make sure everyone had access to training from time to time.
- inglor_cz 3y ago
  I am 45 and I had to catch up on a lot of things. I started programming in 1995 and my language of choice was Pascal 5.5. Catching up is hard, but it is also "gym for your brain". Plenty of people grow complacent and mentally lazy, because they do not face any additional demands over their careers. It is even possible that mental training postpones dementia.
  - noisy_boy 3y ago
    > It is even possible that mental training postpones dementia. Thats what I tell myself as the saving grace (sometimes it is indeed a lot of fun).
theGnuMe 3y ago
Doctors get 200k minimum in almost any community which is why the profession is coveted. You basically never see a poor doctor in the USA. This is because of intense regulation of residency spots. Honestly, if you are a smart American kid who likes research get an MD and/or an MD/PhD. That way you aren't competing with the foreign grad student labor pool. The MD is the golden ticket. Of course if you hate medicine it isn't. Lawyers are more variable and a lot of the work is rote contracts. Programming is more of the wild west since you can practice without a license as they say.

complex_exp 3y ago

> Ivy league students don't get there by themselves. A life-time of adults help you. See, this is what I do not get. I got without excessive effort into a top university in Europe. I never had to be taken care nearly this much. Learned calculus at 14-15 by buying an old book in a used book store. Learned programming at around the same age by reading C++ tutorials and doing programming competitions (ACM style, but easier). Ran in various science competitions, here indeed teachers helped me by giving me books, exercises and guidance, with greater or smaller success. Most of my university peers had similar histories. I believe I would be admitted to an Ivy school if I were American, based on my professional experience with people that studied there. What gives? Is it the last >=2 decades that changed the picture too much? Is it somehow an exclusively American problem? Where are the self-motivated kids, why aren't they taking most spots in those schools? Did something systematically kill the motivation? The slight (or perhaps not so slight) neurosis and coping mechanisms like "I wasn't even trying, so I didn't fail" imply that those kids are way, way past their comfort zone. Being this far out is very unhealthy, can even be lethal.

atleastoptimal 3y ago
It's way easier to get into elite schools in Europe than top tier American ivies.
- complex_exp 3y ago
  That may be it, under-supply of schools. What's required there besides perfect, or near perfect SAT scores? Also, I've always wondered why so few Americans decide to study in Europe. I understand some might not be able to afford the remote study, but this doesn't explain everything. Language is not a problem, every top university offers all, or almost all master's level courses also in English.
- blackbear_ 3y ago
  Citation needed?
  - lordnacho 3y ago