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What's funny is that while Twitter wants you to log in and goes at great length to prevent you from reading anything when not logged in, the situation is exactl

by mg 3y ago

What's funny is that while Twitter wants you to log in and goes at great length to prevent you from reading anything when not logged in, the situation is exactly the other way round with Bluesky. They limit who can sign in, but openly publish all data via their API. So one could use an AT protocol client to read, or a web based client like this one: https://firesky.tv/ https://firesky.tv/ I just made an account, let's see how this thing works: @gnod.bsky.social

donohoe 3y ago
I’m there too: @donohoe.dev
- rpastuszak 3y ago
  Any chance you can share an invite code with me? (Email in the profile)
bushbaba 3y ago
No guarantee they don’t change this when they get bigger and shift from user acquisition to revenue & profitability. Bluesky is VC funded and there’s expectations of revenue growth down the line.
- mg 3y ago
  I have not looked into it very deeply yet, but as I understand the Bluesky project, this would not be as easy for Bluesky as it is for Twitter and Reddit. You can use your own domain as your identity. Even when you use a service like bsky.app, you can use @yourdomain.com as your handle. And switch to any other service to publish under the same handle.
  - svnt 3y ago
    I’m not sure how your argument serves as any counter to “VCs invest in companies to make money” except that the shell game may be one deeper in this case.
  - mdasen 3y ago
    Anything can restrict traffic. SMTP has no lock-in and you can use your own domain, but Gmail could decide to send all your email to spam. Anything can just start ignoring traffic and not showing content. I remember when Google Talk used XMPP federation. Lots of people ran XMPP servers. Then Google turned off federation and only Google Talk users could chat with other Google Talk users. Unlike email, Bluesky essentially has one service. There's no culture of openness there. It wouldn't be hard for them to decide that they'd become the single service in the future. 99% of users aren't going to leave for a different provider and they could simply black hole stuff from other providers. I'm not saying they want to do that, but saying there's no lock-in is wrong at this point. Bluesky could shut down their ATProto entirely and just close if off and 99.9%+ of users wouldn't notice a thing. Bluesky can only be considered open once there are many other home servers and the Bluesky home server isn't the vast majority of traffic. Let's say it's 2025 and Bluesky has 500M users and there are 10 other servers with 5,000-500,000 users. Let's say one of the alternatives seems like it might be a threat to Bluesky's business model. Bluesky simply stops sending its posts via ATProto and then users on those other servers need to migrate to Bluesky. Total lock-in. Now, if it's 2025 and Bluesky has 50M users, ATProtoX has 100M users, SkyNet has 200M users, SocialSky has 25M users, etc., then it's hard to lock someone in. Bluesky couldn't cut itself off from 85% of the network. Bluesky could cut itself off from 0.001% of the network. Just because Bluesky is using the ATProto today doesn't mean they'll continue to. As long as Bluesky is essentially 100% of the content/users/etc., it's easy for them to pivot away from openness toward lock-in. It's only open if they can't cut others off and as long as they're the source of almost everything on the ATProto, they can always pivot away. Yes, with the ATProto you can move servers. That doesn't mean Bluesky will continue to use ATProto and have openness around posting/viewing content.
    - hoidofyolen 3y ago
      the key thing though is that the data that people post with right now on Bluesky is on ATproto, which can be migrated to another PDS without permission from your current PDS (bsky.social). so if Bluesky tried to defederate you could take your data and fuck off with it to another PDS who supports ATproto and bam, Bluesky can't do anything about it. the only thing keeping lock-in right now is the PLC directory, which I think has plans to be owned by consortium eventually.
- Zetice 3y ago
  The guarantee is that the AT protocol doesn’t work that way. They literally could not, technically. You own your data, the entire protocol is built around that basic fact.
  - sbierwagen 3y ago
    Nothing stops them from changing the protocol. It's like insisting blockchain transactions are immutable when Etherium issues updates all the time to reverse transactions that happened due to hacks.
    - newZWhoDis 3y ago
      >Etherium issues updates all the time to reverse transactions that happened due to hacks. Why waste your time and others posting lies on the internet? Easily debunked ones at that.
      - progbits 3y ago
        This good enough evidence for you? https://eips.ethereum.org/EIPS/eip-779 https://eips.ethereum.org/EIPS/eip-779
        newZWhoDis 3y ago
        The DAO fork is nothing like you describe, and was a singular incident in the first major smart contract. BTC had a similar fork in its early days to work around a bug that actually minted illegitimate coins, yet maxis sweep that under the rug. But you knew this, you knew what the DAO fork was. You know when it happened. You knew it was the first major smart contract. You know the context it happened in. You know the community overwhelmingly supported it. You also knew it hasn’t happened since, yet you still went out and lied. Why?
    - hoidofyolen 3y ago
      they could change the protocol going forward if they wanted but all of the data currently posted on the protocol from the past would still be migratable to another PDS who supports the "old" fork of ATproto. I don't think they could change all the data you already posted with a future protocol change, that's not how it works.
- manojlds 3y ago
  BlueSky is a Public Benefit LLC btw https://blueskyweb.xyz/blog/2-7-2022-overview https://blueskyweb.xyz/blog/2-7-2022-overview
  - riffic 3y ago
    PBLLC still has shareholders for the record it's not entirely clear who are the specific shareholders of Bluesky PBLLC other than a vague mention it was "the team itself". https://twitter.com/bluesky/status/1518707603232083968 https://twitter.com/bluesky/status/1518707603232083968
    - dragonwriter 3y ago
      > PBLLC still has shareholders Strictly speaking, no, they don’t, and neither do regular LLCs. Corporations have shareholders, partnerships have pattners, and LLCs have members.
      - riffic 3y ago
        thank you for the correction! I'm not sure where to find clear "membership" of the PBLLC but I assume they have to file paperwork showing something where they are registered. I haven't been paying too close attention but I'm sure some people are interested.
ryanSrich 3y ago
Thanks for this. I had never heard of blue sky. I get to the site and it says they haven’t even launched yet? Maybe an error from all the traffic. Either way, I couldn’t see anything or even sign up for the service.
- chandramdutta 3y ago
  yeah, it's invite only
tambourine_man 3y ago
> but openly publish all data via their API. Until they don’t. > I just made an account Isn’t BlueSky invite only?
- jorts 3y ago
  Yes it’s still invite only.
svnt 3y ago
That is because Twitter’s network produces content which currently has monetary value, while bsky currently has nothing and will run the loss-leader game of converting VC cash into network (which will someday produce value) for as long as they can. It baffles me that this pattern is not better understood in this crowd.
- climatologist 3y ago
  What is the value of the social network other than the network and the interactions it enables? I think there is a fundamental disconnect here that people keep glossing over because abstractly it seems like there must be some way to convert social networks into economic engines but because all social networks are about digital content the only point between the digital and the concrete is the advertising which is the only time social media participants actually see anything connected to any real world economics. I'm going to make a prophetic statement and say that all digital social networks in the long run limit are not sustainable. The digital content generated on them has no real economic value and probably never will because the social connections they enable are inherently not monetizable.
  - svnt 3y ago
    There are myriad ways that networks produce value. One immediate one is attention — if you think the ability to direct attention does not have value, I suggest you try selling anything to anyone without it.
    - climatologist 3y ago
      I already mentioned advertising and how it's the only real economic activity enabled by social networks. Unless Twitter enables some kind of payment processing and gives the participants the ability to actually exchange money for goods and services Twitter will continue to be an economic loss leader. Most people on social networks do not contribute to the real economy in any meaningful way. Same logic applies to bluesky networks and servers.
the_gipsy 3y ago
All market penetrators do this, bait and switch. Some people never learn. The answer is (truly) open protocols.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
matricaria 3y ago
When I go to the link above, all I'm seeing is "Create an account / Sign in". No post or anything. Sure it might be accessible via API but they have the same login wall as Twitter on the website.
the_gipsy 3y ago
It's funny? Have you not seen the same phenomenon a million times now? Every social network-y thing does this. Once they get traction, it gets closed down slowly but steadily. See facebook, twitter, reddit, instagram... whatever bluesky is, its faith is set.

by mg 3y ago

donohoe 3y ago

I’m there too: @donohoe.dev

rpastuszak 3y ago
Any chance you can share an invite code with me? (Email in the profile)

bushbaba 3y ago

No guarantee they don’t change this when they get bigger and shift from user acquisition to revenue & profitability. Bluesky is VC funded and there’s expectations of revenue growth down the line.

mg 3y ago
I have not looked into it very deeply yet, but as I understand the Bluesky project, this would not be as easy for Bluesky as it is for Twitter and Reddit. You can use your own domain as your identity. Even when you use a service like bsky.app, you can use @yourdomain.com as your handle. And switch to any other service to publish under the same handle.
- svnt 3y ago
  I’m not sure how your argument serves as any counter to “VCs invest in companies to make money” except that the shell game may be one deeper in this case.
- mdasen 3y ago
  Anything can restrict traffic. SMTP has no lock-in and you can use your own domain, but Gmail could decide to send all your email to spam. Anything can just start ignoring traffic and not showing content. I remember when Google Talk used XMPP federation. Lots of people ran XMPP servers. Then Google turned off federation and only Google Talk users could chat with other Google Talk users. Unlike email, Bluesky essentially has one service. There's no culture of openness there. It wouldn't be hard for them to decide that they'd become the single service in the future. 99% of users aren't going to leave for a different provider and they could simply black hole stuff from other providers. I'm not saying they want to do that, but saying there's no lock-in is wrong at this point. Bluesky could shut down their ATProto entirely and just close if off and 99.9%+ of users wouldn't notice a thing. Bluesky can only be considered open once there are many other home servers and the Bluesky home server isn't the vast majority of traffic. Let's say it's 2025 and Bluesky has 500M users and there are 10 other servers with 5,000-500,000 users. Let's say one of the alternatives seems like it might be a threat to Bluesky's business model. Bluesky simply stops sending its posts via ATProto and then users on those other servers need to migrate to Bluesky. Total lock-in. Now, if it's 2025 and Bluesky has 50M users, ATProtoX has 100M users, SkyNet has 200M users, SocialSky has 25M users, etc., then it's hard to lock someone in. Bluesky couldn't cut itself off from 85% of the network. Bluesky could cut itself off from 0.001% of the network. Just because Bluesky is using the ATProto today doesn't mean they'll continue to. As long as Bluesky is essentially 100% of the content/users/etc., it's easy for them to pivot away from openness toward lock-in. It's only open if they can't cut others off and as long as they're the source of almost everything on the ATProto, they can always pivot away. Yes, with the ATProto you can move servers. That doesn't mean Bluesky will continue to use ATProto and have openness around posting/viewing content.
  - hoidofyolen 3y ago
    the key thing though is that the data that people post with right now on Bluesky is on ATproto, which can be migrated to another PDS without permission from your current PDS (bsky.social). so if Bluesky tried to defederate you could take your data and fuck off with it to another PDS who supports ATproto and bam, Bluesky can't do anything about it. the only thing keeping lock-in right now is the PLC directory, which I think has plans to be owned by consortium eventually.
Zetice 3y ago
The guarantee is that the AT protocol doesn’t work that way. They literally could not, technically. You own your data, the entire protocol is built around that basic fact.
- sbierwagen 3y ago
  Nothing stops them from changing the protocol. It's like insisting blockchain transactions are immutable when Etherium issues updates all the time to reverse transactions that happened due to hacks.
  - newZWhoDis 3y ago
    >Etherium issues updates all the time to reverse transactions that happened due to hacks. Why waste your time and others posting lies on the internet? Easily debunked ones at that.
    - progbits 3y ago
      This good enough evidence for you? https://eips.ethereum.org/EIPS/eip-779 https://eips.ethereum.org/EIPS/eip-779
      - newZWhoDis 3y ago
        The DAO fork is nothing like you describe, and was a singular incident in the first major smart contract. BTC had a similar fork in its early days to work around a bug that actually minted illegitimate coins, yet maxis sweep that under the rug. But you knew this, you knew what the DAO fork was. You know when it happened. You knew it was the first major smart contract. You know the context it happened in. You know the community overwhelmingly supported it. You also knew it hasn’t happened since, yet you still went out and lied. Why?
  - hoidofyolen 3y ago
    they could change the protocol going forward if they wanted but all of the data currently posted on the protocol from the past would still be migratable to another PDS who supports the "old" fork of ATproto. I don't think they could change all the data you already posted with a future protocol change, that's not how it works.
manojlds 3y ago
BlueSky is a Public Benefit LLC btw https://blueskyweb.xyz/blog/2-7-2022-overview https://blueskyweb.xyz/blog/2-7-2022-overview
- riffic 3y ago
  PBLLC still has shareholders for the record it's not entirely clear who are the specific shareholders of Bluesky PBLLC other than a vague mention it was "the team itself". https://twitter.com/bluesky/status/1518707603232083968 https://twitter.com/bluesky/status/1518707603232083968
  - dragonwriter 3y ago
    > PBLLC still has shareholders Strictly speaking, no, they don’t, and neither do regular LLCs. Corporations have shareholders, partnerships have pattners, and LLCs have members.
    - riffic 3y ago
      thank you for the correction! I'm not sure where to find clear "membership" of the PBLLC but I assume they have to file paperwork showing something where they are registered. I haven't been paying too close attention but I'm sure some people are interested.

ryanSrich 3y ago

Thanks for this. I had never heard of blue sky. I get to the site and it says they haven’t even launched yet? Maybe an error from all the traffic. Either way, I couldn’t see anything or even sign up for the service.

chandramdutta 3y ago
yeah, it's invite only

tambourine_man 3y ago

> but openly publish all data via their API. Until they don’t. > I just made an account Isn’t BlueSky invite only?

jorts 3y ago
Yes it’s still invite only.

svnt 3y ago

That is because Twitter’s network produces content which currently has monetary value, while bsky currently has nothing and will run the loss-leader game of converting VC cash into network (which will someday produce value) for as long as they can. It baffles me that this pattern is not better understood in this crowd.

climatologist 3y ago
What is the value of the social network other than the network and the interactions it enables? I think there is a fundamental disconnect here that people keep glossing over because abstractly it seems like there must be some way to convert social networks into economic engines but because all social networks are about digital content the only point between the digital and the concrete is the advertising which is the only time social media participants actually see anything connected to any real world economics. I'm going to make a prophetic statement and say that all digital social networks in the long run limit are not sustainable. The digital content generated on them has no real economic value and probably never will because the social connections they enable are inherently not monetizable.
- svnt 3y ago
  There are myriad ways that networks produce value. One immediate one is attention — if you think the ability to direct attention does not have value, I suggest you try selling anything to anyone without it.
  - climatologist 3y ago
    I already mentioned advertising and how it's the only real economic activity enabled by social networks. Unless Twitter enables some kind of payment processing and gives the participants the ability to actually exchange money for goods and services Twitter will continue to be an economic loss leader. Most people on social networks do not contribute to the real economy in any meaningful way. Same logic applies to bluesky networks and servers.

the_gipsy 3y ago

All market penetrators do this, bait and switch. Some people never learn. The answer is (truly) open protocols.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

matricaria 3y ago

When I go to the link above, all I'm seeing is "Create an account / Sign in". No post or anything. Sure it might be accessible via API but they have the same login wall as Twitter on the website.

the_gipsy 3y ago

It's funny? Have you not seen the same phenomenon a million times now? Every social network-y thing does this. Once they get traction, it gets closed down slowly but steadily. See facebook, twitter, reddit, instagram... whatever bluesky is, its faith is set.