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I don't really know if NATO+allies would establish air superiority. However my guess is that they may use a combination of tactics from HALO insertions[1], long

I don't really know if NATO+allies would establish air superiority. However my guess is that they may use a combination of tactics from HALO insertions[1], long range missile strikes from land and sea, and around-the-clock bombing from stealth aircraft like the B2[2], to knock out AA batteries until the enemy can no longer adequately defend it's skies. Then jets like the F-22[3] would be used to establish command of the airspace. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-altitude_military_parachuting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-altitude_military_parachu... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_Grumman_B-2_Spirit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_Grumman_B-2_Spirit [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-22_Raptor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-22_Raptor

cpursley 3y ago
Do you think the 30 year old B-2s will would be able to penetrate Russian air space? They've got quite the radar array and integrated air defense.
- armchairgen 3y ago
  Do you think that the B-2 is the latest that the U.S. has[1]? It doesn't need to be singularly successful since it's part of a collective of redundant systems[2]. Air isn't working then increase missile strikes, missiles can't attain good effect on target then increase covert operations with local insurgencies, etc. That's just some of the possible angles of attack. There's leaving out things like drones and cyber attacks that would also be employed to some effect. Eventually the enemy loses the ability to fight since it's critical points are weakened to such a point it can no longer wage an effective resistance. Another example: why attack heavily defended artillery positions when you can blow up the logistical route and starve them of rounds to attack with? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_Grumman_B-21_Raider https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_Grumman_B-21_Raider [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maneuver_warfare https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maneuver_warfare
  - cpursley 3y ago
    What you described is exactly what Russia is doing to NATO backed Ukraine.
    - armchairgen 3y ago
      How so? How is Russia establishing air superiority over Ukraine now? Or is going to change the tempo of the war into their favor? How does this pertain to them denying NATO+allies from probably eventually attaining air superiority in a hypothetical full conflict?
      - cpursley 3y ago
        Well, for one - with impunity, Russian choppers over the last month have decimated the Ukrainian counteroffensive attempts to the point of shocking even Western some observers (the uneducated ones). This is partially due to greatly degraded Ukrainian air defense after an intentional multi-month bombing campaign (using missiles, not planes - meaning no dead pilots). And Russia has shown to be very effective at intercepting various modern weapons systems via EW or direct. Maybe they are evil incarnate, but they math good.
        armchairgen 3y ago
        No one's doubting Russia has built a capable defense over the last year however that's not changing the direction of the war. How many helicopters can Russia sustain to lose? They've lost several over the last few weeks. Supply routes have be successfully attacked by Ukraine with estimates of slowing logistics by 50% in certain areas. And again how many AA batteries can they sustain to lose? Meanwhile Ukraine has made slow but steady advances forward gaining ground. Where's Russia changing the direction? Is that by terrorizing civilian targets (your bombing campaign) and blowing up hydroelectric dams? So essentially they're just using the tactics of terrorists. Yet they still can't freely fly over Ukraine because they still lack control over the skies. When's Russia regaining the momentum in their favor? Last week one of their best units tried to storm Moscow and hang their top military leaders. AND now Russia is more weakened to a full confrontation with NATO than they were before starting their war in Ukraine. So all the more likely to lose air superiority to NATO+allies.
- greedo 3y ago
  Well, considering the reports coming out about how their radar systems have been deployed lacking the necessary gear (due to widespread corruption), I think that it's possible the B-2 could still penetrate. Russia's a huge country, and he who defends everything defends nothing.
greedo 3y ago
HALO insertions against an A2AD environment are suicide. Same with using something like an AC-130 in daylight. They rely on large, slow, easily detected transports.
- cpursley 3y ago
  For fun, let's assume they could get in; the math still doesn't work. A bunch of parachuter guys with automatic guns and limited ammo vs Russian combined arms is going to end very poorly.
  - greedo 3y ago
    Yeah, short of a Tom Clancy novel, using your best operators on a one-way trip doesn't work well.
    - cpursley 3y ago
      Yep. Russia lost some of its best paratroopers during the initial Kiev/Kyiv thing. Not a great investment and pretty incompetent planning.
      - greedo 3y ago
        Well... I guess they might have been Russia's best airborne units, but both at Hostomel and in other engagements, they've been shown to be overrated. Then again, Hostomel was a shitshow of poor planning/intel. I bet the VDV would have loved to know that there was a UKr unit right next door with heavy artillery before they kicked off the assault.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- armchairgen 3y ago
  So how do they stop cruise missiles and other artillery? Stop decoy missiles? What happens when the enemy has exhausted it's supply of AA ammo? Or lost use of its radar?

cpursley 3y ago

Do you think the 30 year old B-2s will would be able to penetrate Russian air space? They've got quite the radar array and integrated air defense.

armchairgen 3y ago
Do you think that the B-2 is the latest that the U.S. has[1]? It doesn't need to be singularly successful since it's part of a collective of redundant systems[2]. Air isn't working then increase missile strikes, missiles can't attain good effect on target then increase covert operations with local insurgencies, etc. That's just some of the possible angles of attack. There's leaving out things like drones and cyber attacks that would also be employed to some effect. Eventually the enemy loses the ability to fight since it's critical points are weakened to such a point it can no longer wage an effective resistance. Another example: why attack heavily defended artillery positions when you can blow up the logistical route and starve them of rounds to attack with? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_Grumman_B-21_Raider https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_Grumman_B-21_Raider [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maneuver_warfare https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maneuver_warfare
- cpursley 3y ago
  What you described is exactly what Russia is doing to NATO backed Ukraine.
  - armchairgen 3y ago
    How so? How is Russia establishing air superiority over Ukraine now? Or is going to change the tempo of the war into their favor? How does this pertain to them denying NATO+allies from probably eventually attaining air superiority in a hypothetical full conflict?
    - cpursley 3y ago
      Well, for one - with impunity, Russian choppers over the last month have decimated the Ukrainian counteroffensive attempts to the point of shocking even Western some observers (the uneducated ones). This is partially due to greatly degraded Ukrainian air defense after an intentional multi-month bombing campaign (using missiles, not planes - meaning no dead pilots). And Russia has shown to be very effective at intercepting various modern weapons systems via EW or direct. Maybe they are evil incarnate, but they math good.
      - armchairgen 3y ago
        No one's doubting Russia has built a capable defense over the last year however that's not changing the direction of the war. How many helicopters can Russia sustain to lose? They've lost several over the last few weeks. Supply routes have be successfully attacked by Ukraine with estimates of slowing logistics by 50% in certain areas. And again how many AA batteries can they sustain to lose? Meanwhile Ukraine has made slow but steady advances forward gaining ground. Where's Russia changing the direction? Is that by terrorizing civilian targets (your bombing campaign) and blowing up hydroelectric dams? So essentially they're just using the tactics of terrorists. Yet they still can't freely fly over Ukraine because they still lack control over the skies. When's Russia regaining the momentum in their favor? Last week one of their best units tried to storm Moscow and hang their top military leaders. AND now Russia is more weakened to a full confrontation with NATO than they were before starting their war in Ukraine. So all the more likely to lose air superiority to NATO+allies.
greedo 3y ago
Well, considering the reports coming out about how their radar systems have been deployed lacking the necessary gear (due to widespread corruption), I think that it's possible the B-2 could still penetrate. Russia's a huge country, and he who defends everything defends nothing.

greedo 3y ago

HALO insertions against an A2AD environment are suicide. Same with using something like an AC-130 in daylight. They rely on large, slow, easily detected transports.

cpursley 3y ago
For fun, let's assume they could get in; the math still doesn't work. A bunch of parachuter guys with automatic guns and limited ammo vs Russian combined arms is going to end very poorly.
- greedo 3y ago
  Yeah, short of a Tom Clancy novel, using your best operators on a one-way trip doesn't work well.
  - cpursley 3y ago
    Yep. Russia lost some of its best paratroopers during the initial Kiev/Kyiv thing. Not a great investment and pretty incompetent planning.
    - greedo 3y ago
      Well... I guess they might have been Russia's best airborne units, but both at Hostomel and in other engagements, they've been shown to be overrated. Then again, Hostomel was a shitshow of poor planning/intel. I bet the VDV would have loved to know that there was a UKr unit right next door with heavy artillery before they kicked off the assault.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
armchairgen 3y ago
So how do they stop cruise missiles and other artillery? Stop decoy missiles? What happens when the enemy has exhausted it's supply of AA ammo? Or lost use of its radar?