5 ms·

Nadezhda Khvoshchinskaya, a great Russian writer of the nineteenth century

36 points by lermontov 3y ago

6r17 3y ago
(born in france from two polish parents) i just love how eastern languages words can be declined to alter their meaning ; atomicaly it's close to saying "adjective + word", they are also close to postfixes but not really since they alter part of the original word ; not only that it naturally involves that every word could be suddenly "casted" into something news ; which for some reason sounds very understandable but also makes the language very living and dynamic ; while French is inducing a complete paradigm shift with "verlan" - where we change the words by shifting the sylables ; fete -> teuf; mate-> tema ;
- tempodox 3y ago
  If only the Russian government weren't evil incarnate. The Russian language (even just the sound of it) exerts an unholy magnetism on all centers of curiosity and fascination in my brain. I would love to immerse myself completely.
  - indy 3y ago
    You should, the Russian language will outlast any Russian Government
    - dankle 3y ago
      At the current rate, nothing will outlast the Russaian govt.
    - nine_k 3y ago
      That language has outlasted terrible governments so many times. It's pretty hard to say when Russia did not have a government that's patently terrible in one way or another.
    - victorbjorklund 3y ago
      Russia had terrible govt for last 300 years. Pretty sure russia will continue to be evil even after Putin.
      - sgt 3y ago
        Invading Ukraine isn't everything Russia does. It is full of productive citizens, amazing nature and diversity. It's probably time the West looks beyond just the war which is very temporary and proactively try to bring Russia back into the warmth of Europe.
  - donottellanyone 3y ago
    [flagged]
tempodox 3y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nadezhda_Khvoshchinskaya https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nadezhda_Khvoshchinskaya
wruza 3y ago
You probably wish it weren’t such a difficult name for Anglophone readers to parse! If we were to break it down, it sounds like HvOshinskaya with the stress on the O That’s self-imposed complexity. First they transliterate it as “kh”, where “h” is enough in practice. And then these “sh”, “ch” permutations which should be something like /[ščşç]/. It could be justified if Anglophones could read it correctly, but usually I have to turn on subtitles to reconstruct a name back from that.
- t_tsonev 3y ago
  Mama ŠČ!
- Tade0 3y ago
  > First they transliterate it as “kh”, where “h” is enough in practice. That one caught me off guard when I saw Kherson mentioned for the first time.
- bambataa 3y ago
  When I studied Russian we were taught (by native speakers) that щ was pronounced “shch”. But then when we went to Russia literally everyone pronounced it like a longer and softer ш. I still don’t really understand what happened there.
  - nine_k 3y ago
    You will hear "shch" in St. Petersburg, and a softened "sh" in Moscow. AFAICT more regional variations exist, e.g. sounding like "sht". Interestingly, you will also hear "shch" in Bulgaria.
- lisasays 3y ago
  That’s self-imposed complexity. It's not a matter of complexity for its own sake. The standard transliteration an intentional trade-off that favors accuracy/fidelity over accessibility to lazy English speakers. Berman has a point that a simpler system would make stuff easier to pronounce and recognize. But you'd be losing a lot of important signal and creating all kinds of other confusions (especially in dictionary entries) if you apopted that kind of a system as your standard. For example the Х is always a "kh" sound, as in the Scottish loch, and never a "h" sound (which doesn't exist in Russian). Meanwhile if one does see a Cyrillic name transliterated with a pure "h" sound it's a good sign that it references something in Ukrainian (where the sound does occur and is quite common). Also if we squish Щ down to "sh" then we're colliding with the representation of Ш which represents the pure "sh" sound. So you'd be creating all kinds of collisions is if you smushed these two letters down into the same representation. While "shch" is mouthful for Anglophones - it at least tells them that something is going on, and that it's not the same as "sh" in either the Cyrillic representation or the sound. Point being - there are reasons for the system the way it is, and it's not about pedantry really. (BTW yes, these sounds do drift regionally and all that but that's a whole different topic).
azubinski 3y ago
Nothing pleases as much as the contemplation of hackers deeply fascinated by the old and interesting only to a handful of very specific literary critics literature. But precisely because of these links to absolutely wonderful resources, any curious observer from this mournful world can cheer herself up for a couple of minutes. For example, is it possible not to laugh at such a description: "lives and sometimes writes [geographical location, not publication]. Ostensibly, ... working on a novel about a woman who inexplicably births a sheepdog". Who would be interested in ancient literature in a world where there are such characters? LOL
- HMantegazzianum 3y ago
  Offtopic: happy [classified] day, _didu_ Thank you.

36 points by lermontov 3y ago

6r17 3y ago

(born in france from two polish parents) i just love how eastern languages words can be declined to alter their meaning ; atomicaly it's close to saying "adjective + word", they are also close to postfixes but not really since they alter part of the original word ; not only that it naturally involves that every word could be suddenly "casted" into something news ; which for some reason sounds very understandable but also makes the language very living and dynamic ; while French is inducing a complete paradigm shift with "verlan" - where we change the words by shifting the sylables ; fete -> teuf; mate-> tema ;

tempodox 3y ago
If only the Russian government weren't evil incarnate. The Russian language (even just the sound of it) exerts an unholy magnetism on all centers of curiosity and fascination in my brain. I would love to immerse myself completely.
- indy 3y ago
  You should, the Russian language will outlast any Russian Government
  - dankle 3y ago
    At the current rate, nothing will outlast the Russaian govt.
  - nine_k 3y ago
    That language has outlasted terrible governments so many times. It's pretty hard to say when Russia did not have a government that's patently terrible in one way or another.
  - victorbjorklund 3y ago
    Russia had terrible govt for last 300 years. Pretty sure russia will continue to be evil even after Putin.
    - sgt 3y ago
      Invading Ukraine isn't everything Russia does. It is full of productive citizens, amazing nature and diversity. It's probably time the West looks beyond just the war which is very temporary and proactively try to bring Russia back into the warmth of Europe.
- donottellanyone 3y ago
  [flagged]

tempodox 3y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nadezhda_Khvoshchinskaya https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nadezhda_Khvoshchinskaya

wruza 3y ago

You probably wish it weren’t such a difficult name for Anglophone readers to parse! If we were to break it down, it sounds like HvOshinskaya with the stress on the O That’s self-imposed complexity. First they transliterate it as “kh”, where “h” is enough in practice. And then these “sh”, “ch” permutations which should be something like /[ščşç]/. It could be justified if Anglophones could read it correctly, but usually I have to turn on subtitles to reconstruct a name back from that.

t_tsonev 3y ago
Mama ŠČ!
Tade0 3y ago
> First they transliterate it as “kh”, where “h” is enough in practice. That one caught me off guard when I saw Kherson mentioned for the first time.
bambataa 3y ago
When I studied Russian we were taught (by native speakers) that щ was pronounced “shch”. But then when we went to Russia literally everyone pronounced it like a longer and softer ш. I still don’t really understand what happened there.
- nine_k 3y ago
  You will hear "shch" in St. Petersburg, and a softened "sh" in Moscow. AFAICT more regional variations exist, e.g. sounding like "sht". Interestingly, you will also hear "shch" in Bulgaria.
lisasays 3y ago
That’s self-imposed complexity. It's not a matter of complexity for its own sake. The standard transliteration an intentional trade-off that favors accuracy/fidelity over accessibility to lazy English speakers. Berman has a point that a simpler system would make stuff easier to pronounce and recognize. But you'd be losing a lot of important signal and creating all kinds of other confusions (especially in dictionary entries) if you apopted that kind of a system as your standard. For example the Х is always a "kh" sound, as in the Scottish loch, and never a "h" sound (which doesn't exist in Russian). Meanwhile if one does see a Cyrillic name transliterated with a pure "h" sound it's a good sign that it references something in Ukrainian (where the sound does occur and is quite common). Also if we squish Щ down to "sh" then we're colliding with the representation of Ш which represents the pure "sh" sound. So you'd be creating all kinds of collisions is if you smushed these two letters down into the same representation. While "shch" is mouthful for Anglophones - it at least tells them that something is going on, and that it's not the same as "sh" in either the Cyrillic representation or the sound. Point being - there are reasons for the system the way it is, and it's not about pedantry really. (BTW yes, these sounds do drift regionally and all that but that's a whole different topic).

azubinski 3y ago

Nothing pleases as much as the contemplation of hackers deeply fascinated by the old and interesting only to a handful of very specific literary critics literature. But precisely because of these links to absolutely wonderful resources, any curious observer from this mournful world can cheer herself up for a couple of minutes. For example, is it possible not to laugh at such a description: "lives and sometimes writes [geographical location, not publication]. Ostensibly, ... working on a novel about a woman who inexplicably births a sheepdog". Who would be interested in ancient literature in a world where there are such characters? LOL

HMantegazzianum 3y ago
Offtopic: happy [classified] day, _didu_ Thank you.