5 ms·

This is just another example of the depth of issues caused by allowing production and mechanical know how to apathy. We literally have to build up the generatio

This is just another example of the depth of issues caused by allowing production and mechanical know how to apathy. We literally have to build up the generational knowledge again from nearly nothing.

mildchalupa 3y ago
This sort of thing is true nearly everywhere. In my own career I try to seek out those with the tribal design knowledge and deep understanding and learn as muh as possible.
ttfkam 3y ago
"Atrophy", not apathy, though the atrophy may be due to apathy.
- mcculley 3y ago
  Maybe vocabulary is a victim of atrophy.
brilee 3y ago
The U.S. quite appropriately cut its defense spending after the USSR collapsed: https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/military-spending-defense-budget https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/mili... which in turn caused a cascade of mergers in defense contractors and the retirement of much this production and mechanical know-how. I think you are incorrectly conflating this transition period with the offshoring knowledge decay.
- giantg2 3y ago
  Many of the skillsets and technical knowledge overlap. The downsizing and offshoring are both important factors.
- therealdkz 3y ago
  not in real dollars
  - xeromal 3y ago
    What about proportional dollars?
crazygringo 3y ago
It's not due to apathy, it's due to economics. Emotions or willpower don't factor in here at all, just pure costs. The alternative is to raise taxes or tariffs to pay for keeping unneeded production lines active, which means hardworking Americans in the rest of the country take home or keep less money. Which might sometimes be the right tradeoff for national security, but you only ever really know in hindsight. Nobody was predicting a major European land war.
- throwaway894345 3y ago
  Presumably the parent meant “atrophy” and not “apathy”. Seems like the kind of shit my phone’s autocorrect is likely to pull. > The alternative is to raise taxes or tariffs to pay for keeping unneeded production lines active, which means hardworking Americans in the rest of the country take home or keep less money. Which might sometimes be the right tradeoff for national security, but you only ever really know in hindsight. The parent wasn’t talking narrowly about keeping defense supply chains maintained (although that’s probably a good idea) but about maintaining our manufacturing industry in general so we have the equipment and experience to build. This requires a policy shift, but an eminently sensible one for reasons besides military policy: we (the US) should reduce our dependence on a reliably oppressive dictatorship (particularly with respect to critical supply chains like defense) and bring those jobs and ingenuity back home (or at least to friendly shores). To wit, middle class Americans would bring home more money (although not so much for the American managerial class, which has enriched itself by outsourcing American middle class jobs), but there would be less cheap, disposable plastic junk on our shelves—things would cost more but they would last longer and we would repair our goods rather than disposing of them. Apart from reasons of global and national security, economy, etc, why should we allow products on American markets that were made with labor and environmental conditions that we would never tolerate here? Why should we be complicit?
- inetknght 3y ago
  > The alternative is to raise taxes or tariffs to pay for keeping unneeded production lines active, which means hardworking Americans in the rest of the country take home or keep less money If taxes are raised then yes hardworking Americans in the rest of the country take home or keep less money. If tariffs are raised then it's not hardworking Americans that take home or keep less money. It's people who import things that can and should be built locally instead. Better to keep the money in the USA instead of sending it overseas; better to pay Americans to build the things instead of paying people who are already rich to get richer.
Mountain_Skies 3y ago
Why build it up internally when you can just issue a bunch of visas and import it as needed? That's pretty much the labor policy of the United States. Looks like it has some minor flaws.
hospitalJail 3y ago
Eh, production and individual components are such a minor thing that according to the article, it takes 30 months MAX to get the production line going again. In a true emergency, we could find replacement parts by spending money on design, and we could machine shop the actual production. That isnt what is happening here. This is a case of being frugal, not changing the design, and reassembling the assembly line as if nothing happened over the last few decades. No one is spending money on design here and it shows. No one wants to spend money on machine shopping these, it shows. Makes sense too, 30 months max isnt so bad when you have a stockpile, you are going to be making some during pre-production, and its not an emergency. I've seen some amazing things happen when emergencies happen. Prototype/Machine Shops will boggle your mind, but they make you pay. Disclaimer: I didn't work with the military, so I imagine there is some 'top secret' access that makes all of this worse.

mildchalupa 3y ago

This sort of thing is true nearly everywhere. In my own career I try to seek out those with the tribal design knowledge and deep understanding and learn as muh as possible.

ttfkam 3y ago

"Atrophy", not apathy, though the atrophy may be due to apathy.

mcculley 3y ago
Maybe vocabulary is a victim of atrophy.

brilee 3y ago

The U.S. quite appropriately cut its defense spending after the USSR collapsed: https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/military-spending-defense-budget https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/mili... which in turn caused a cascade of mergers in defense contractors and the retirement of much this production and mechanical know-how. I think you are incorrectly conflating this transition period with the offshoring knowledge decay.

giantg2 3y ago
Many of the skillsets and technical knowledge overlap. The downsizing and offshoring are both important factors.
therealdkz 3y ago
not in real dollars
- xeromal 3y ago
  What about proportional dollars?

crazygringo 3y ago

It's not due to apathy, it's due to economics. Emotions or willpower don't factor in here at all, just pure costs. The alternative is to raise taxes or tariffs to pay for keeping unneeded production lines active, which means hardworking Americans in the rest of the country take home or keep less money. Which might sometimes be the right tradeoff for national security, but you only ever really know in hindsight. Nobody was predicting a major European land war.

throwaway894345 3y ago
Presumably the parent meant “atrophy” and not “apathy”. Seems like the kind of shit my phone’s autocorrect is likely to pull. > The alternative is to raise taxes or tariffs to pay for keeping unneeded production lines active, which means hardworking Americans in the rest of the country take home or keep less money. Which might sometimes be the right tradeoff for national security, but you only ever really know in hindsight. The parent wasn’t talking narrowly about keeping defense supply chains maintained (although that’s probably a good idea) but about maintaining our manufacturing industry in general so we have the equipment and experience to build. This requires a policy shift, but an eminently sensible one for reasons besides military policy: we (the US) should reduce our dependence on a reliably oppressive dictatorship (particularly with respect to critical supply chains like defense) and bring those jobs and ingenuity back home (or at least to friendly shores). To wit, middle class Americans would bring home more money (although not so much for the American managerial class, which has enriched itself by outsourcing American middle class jobs), but there would be less cheap, disposable plastic junk on our shelves—things would cost more but they would last longer and we would repair our goods rather than disposing of them. Apart from reasons of global and national security, economy, etc, why should we allow products on American markets that were made with labor and environmental conditions that we would never tolerate here? Why should we be complicit?
inetknght 3y ago
> The alternative is to raise taxes or tariffs to pay for keeping unneeded production lines active, which means hardworking Americans in the rest of the country take home or keep less money If taxes are raised then yes hardworking Americans in the rest of the country take home or keep less money. If tariffs are raised then it's not hardworking Americans that take home or keep less money. It's people who import things that can and should be built locally instead. Better to keep the money in the USA instead of sending it overseas; better to pay Americans to build the things instead of paying people who are already rich to get richer.

Mountain_Skies 3y ago

Why build it up internally when you can just issue a bunch of visas and import it as needed? That's pretty much the labor policy of the United States. Looks like it has some minor flaws.

hospitalJail 3y ago

Eh, production and individual components are such a minor thing that according to the article, it takes 30 months MAX to get the production line going again. In a true emergency, we could find replacement parts by spending money on design, and we could machine shop the actual production. That isnt what is happening here. This is a case of being frugal, not changing the design, and reassembling the assembly line as if nothing happened over the last few decades. No one is spending money on design here and it shows. No one wants to spend money on machine shopping these, it shows. Makes sense too, 30 months max isnt so bad when you have a stockpile, you are going to be making some during pre-production, and its not an emergency. I've seen some amazing things happen when emergencies happen. Prototype/Machine Shops will boggle your mind, but they make you pay. Disclaimer: I didn't work with the military, so I imagine there is some 'top secret' access that makes all of this worse.