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> It’s wild to me that software engineers don’t need to be certified in a similar vein to civil engineers. At the moment any coder can claim to be a software e

> It’s wild to me that software engineers don’t need to be certified in a similar vein to civil engineers. At the moment any coder can claim to be a software engineer. Certification is needed so we can draw a distinction between those who can code, and those can can engineer software solutions, as well as holding them to a higher standard.

lloeki 3y ago
In France it is: "engineer"-the-title specifically means having a degree from a state-certified engineering school, and when you get the degree the state inscribes you as an engineer in a national registry. Whether it's software engineer or another domain is immaterial, the title "engineer" is heavily protected and making use of it without the degree is liable for pursuit the same way claiming to be a doctor and delivering medical advice when one is not: in the same way as with the Hippocrates oath, engineers are held to a high moral standard of ethics and integrity. The words "élite de la nation" often comes up - and often in derogatory ways from outsiders - but it is borne out from these requirements, that engineers are to be placed in position of great power and corresponding responsibility, meaning they have a duty to call the shots in high stakes situations in ways that go beyond technical knowledge and mastery but also factor in intellectual and moral values. One can get a masters degree in computer science and/or software development though, which is the same "knowledge level" of studies (an engineering degree doubles as a masters degree), but that does not make one an engineer, which is a corps (in the same sense that e.g US Marines are a corps). This dates back to Napoleon and the creation of "classes préparatoires" and public (state-owned) engineer schools, heavily inspired by the military. Case in point Polytechnique is a military school (although the goal is not to produce armymen), and entering any of the three french military corps (the navy, the air force, and the "ground" army) as an officer goes through the same classe préparatoire process. This design has been relaxed over time and for quite a time there are private engineering schools that don't require going through these first two prépa years, but they still require the state certification to legally produce engineers.
- PrimeMcFly 3y ago
  I know that approach is in quite a lot of countries and something I agree with. It's not very common in the Anglosphere, unfortunately. What do you call audio engineers?
  - ThePowerOfFuet 3y ago
    DJs.
    - PrimeMcFly 3y ago
      No. Sound/audio engineers are not DJs.
- JTyQZSnP3cQGa8B 3y ago
  You’re describing the "ingénieur diplômé d’état" which is controlled. Everyone can be a regular engineer in France.
  - lloeki 3y ago
    I stand corrected.
SoftTalker 3y ago
It’s kind of like anyone with a bit of common sense and a few common tools can build a doghouse, but you need to know a lot more to build a skyscraper.
nradov 3y ago
Certification isn't "needed" in any meaningful sense. But the IEEE does offer a pretty good software certification program if that's what you want. You're welcome to make certification a hiring requirement at your company, and it will ensure that candidates know at least the basics. https://www.computer.org/product/education/professional-software-developer-certification https://www.computer.org/product/education/professional-soft... Of course, most of the best software engineers have no certifications.
- PrimeMcFly 3y ago
  Certification is needed to hold software "engineers" accountable for shoddy software. Eventually I expect anglo countries to catch up to what other developed countries do and regulate the term.
  - nradov 3y ago
    Nah, there's no need. If customers don't want shoddy software then they should specify clear quality requirements in their purchase contracts.
    - PrimeMcFly 3y ago
      There is absolutely a need, and it is inevitable licensing/certification will happen at some point. If software engineers screw up code for say a pacemaker, or an airplane, or a self-driving car, they should be held to the same standards as a civil engineer who was negligent in a bridge design which led to deaths.
      - nradov 3y ago
        Nah, you're just making things up. Irrational cranks have been pushing for certification for decades but in the real world no one cares. For pacemakers the FDA already certifies medical devices based on the entire design, manufacturing, and testing process of which software is only one part. Requiring certification for the programmers involved would be just stupid and accomplish nothing.

lloeki 3y ago

In France it is: "engineer"-the-title specifically means having a degree from a state-certified engineering school, and when you get the degree the state inscribes you as an engineer in a national registry. Whether it's software engineer or another domain is immaterial, the title "engineer" is heavily protected and making use of it without the degree is liable for pursuit the same way claiming to be a doctor and delivering medical advice when one is not: in the same way as with the Hippocrates oath, engineers are held to a high moral standard of ethics and integrity. The words "élite de la nation" often comes up - and often in derogatory ways from outsiders - but it is borne out from these requirements, that engineers are to be placed in position of great power and corresponding responsibility, meaning they have a duty to call the shots in high stakes situations in ways that go beyond technical knowledge and mastery but also factor in intellectual and moral values. One can get a masters degree in computer science and/or software development though, which is the same "knowledge level" of studies (an engineering degree doubles as a masters degree), but that does not make one an engineer, which is a corps (in the same sense that e.g US Marines are a corps). This dates back to Napoleon and the creation of "classes préparatoires" and public (state-owned) engineer schools, heavily inspired by the military. Case in point Polytechnique is a military school (although the goal is not to produce armymen), and entering any of the three french military corps (the navy, the air force, and the "ground" army) as an officer goes through the same classe préparatoire process. This design has been relaxed over time and for quite a time there are private engineering schools that don't require going through these first two prépa years, but they still require the state certification to legally produce engineers.

PrimeMcFly 3y ago
I know that approach is in quite a lot of countries and something I agree with. It's not very common in the Anglosphere, unfortunately. What do you call audio engineers?
- ThePowerOfFuet 3y ago
  DJs.
  - PrimeMcFly 3y ago
    No. Sound/audio engineers are not DJs.
JTyQZSnP3cQGa8B 3y ago
You’re describing the "ingénieur diplômé d’état" which is controlled. Everyone can be a regular engineer in France.
- lloeki 3y ago
  I stand corrected.

SoftTalker 3y ago

It’s kind of like anyone with a bit of common sense and a few common tools can build a doghouse, but you need to know a lot more to build a skyscraper.

nradov 3y ago

Certification isn't "needed" in any meaningful sense. But the IEEE does offer a pretty good software certification program if that's what you want. You're welcome to make certification a hiring requirement at your company, and it will ensure that candidates know at least the basics. https://www.computer.org/product/education/professional-software-developer-certification https://www.computer.org/product/education/professional-soft... Of course, most of the best software engineers have no certifications.

PrimeMcFly 3y ago
Certification is needed to hold software "engineers" accountable for shoddy software. Eventually I expect anglo countries to catch up to what other developed countries do and regulate the term.
- nradov 3y ago
  Nah, there's no need. If customers don't want shoddy software then they should specify clear quality requirements in their purchase contracts.
  - PrimeMcFly 3y ago
    There is absolutely a need, and it is inevitable licensing/certification will happen at some point. If software engineers screw up code for say a pacemaker, or an airplane, or a self-driving car, they should be held to the same standards as a civil engineer who was negligent in a bridge design which led to deaths.
    - nradov 3y ago
      Nah, you're just making things up. Irrational cranks have been pushing for certification for decades but in the real world no one cares. For pacemakers the FDA already certifies medical devices based on the entire design, manufacturing, and testing process of which software is only one part. Requiring certification for the programmers involved would be just stupid and accomplish nothing.