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It’s wild to me that software engineers don’t need to be certified in a similar vein to civil engineers. As more and more of our comms move into closed-gardens

by ccakes 3y ago

It’s wild to me that software engineers don’t need to be certified in a similar vein to civil engineers. As more and more of our comms move into closed-gardens over the internet, the opportunity for a bug to indirectly result in injury or death grows. All it takes is a bug in a billing system that prevents a delinquent customer from contacting emergency services..

PrimeMcFly 3y ago
> It’s wild to me that software engineers don’t need to be certified in a similar vein to civil engineers. At the moment any coder can claim to be a software engineer. Certification is needed so we can draw a distinction between those who can code, and those can can engineer software solutions, as well as holding them to a higher standard.
- lloeki 3y ago
  In France it is: "engineer"-the-title specifically means having a degree from a state-certified engineering school, and when you get the degree the state inscribes you as an engineer in a national registry. Whether it's software engineer or another domain is immaterial, the title "engineer" is heavily protected and making use of it without the degree is liable for pursuit the same way claiming to be a doctor and delivering medical advice when one is not: in the same way as with the Hippocrates oath, engineers are held to a high moral standard of ethics and integrity. The words "élite de la nation" often comes up - and often in derogatory ways from outsiders - but it is borne out from these requirements, that engineers are to be placed in position of great power and corresponding responsibility, meaning they have a duty to call the shots in high stakes situations in ways that go beyond technical knowledge and mastery but also factor in intellectual and moral values. One can get a masters degree in computer science and/or software development though, which is the same "knowledge level" of studies (an engineering degree doubles as a masters degree), but that does not make one an engineer, which is a corps (in the same sense that e.g US Marines are a corps). This dates back to Napoleon and the creation of "classes préparatoires" and public (state-owned) engineer schools, heavily inspired by the military. Case in point Polytechnique is a military school (although the goal is not to produce armymen), and entering any of the three french military corps (the navy, the air force, and the "ground" army) as an officer goes through the same classe préparatoire process. This design has been relaxed over time and for quite a time there are private engineering schools that don't require going through these first two prépa years, but they still require the state certification to legally produce engineers.
  - PrimeMcFly 3y ago
    I know that approach is in quite a lot of countries and something I agree with. It's not very common in the Anglosphere, unfortunately. What do you call audio engineers?
    - ThePowerOfFuet 3y ago
      DJs.
      - PrimeMcFly 3y ago
        No. Sound/audio engineers are not DJs.
  - JTyQZSnP3cQGa8B 3y ago
    You’re describing the "ingénieur diplômé d’état" which is controlled. Everyone can be a regular engineer in France.
    - lloeki 3y ago
      I stand corrected.
- SoftTalker 3y ago
  It’s kind of like anyone with a bit of common sense and a few common tools can build a doghouse, but you need to know a lot more to build a skyscraper.
- nradov 3y ago
  Certification isn't "needed" in any meaningful sense. But the IEEE does offer a pretty good software certification program if that's what you want. You're welcome to make certification a hiring requirement at your company, and it will ensure that candidates know at least the basics. https://www.computer.org/product/education/professional-software-developer-certification https://www.computer.org/product/education/professional-soft... Of course, most of the best software engineers have no certifications.
  - PrimeMcFly 3y ago
    Certification is needed to hold software "engineers" accountable for shoddy software. Eventually I expect anglo countries to catch up to what other developed countries do and regulate the term.
    - nradov 3y ago
      Nah, there's no need. If customers don't want shoddy software then they should specify clear quality requirements in their purchase contracts.
      - PrimeMcFly 3y ago
        There is absolutely a need, and it is inevitable licensing/certification will happen at some point. If software engineers screw up code for say a pacemaker, or an airplane, or a self-driving car, they should be held to the same standards as a civil engineer who was negligent in a bridge design which led to deaths.
        nradov 3y ago
        Nah, you're just making things up. Irrational cranks have been pushing for certification for decades but in the real world no one cares. For pacemakers the FDA already certifies medical devices based on the entire design, manufacturing, and testing process of which software is only one part. Requiring certification for the programmers involved would be just stupid and accomplish nothing.
rcarmo 3y ago
This was actually something that my course (one of the first computer engineering degrees in Portugal) struggled with back in 1994. Engineering guilds (and governments) are simply not able to cope with the concept of software being critical, but the key thing at the time was that software engineering was not even acknowledged as “engineering” by the local Engineering guild (which was stuck in a loop around the physicality of civil, electronics and mechanical engineering). They still haven’t figured it all out.
plasticeagle 3y ago
I think the true reason for this is that software is orders of magnitude more complex than civil engineering - and everything you build is pretty much a whole new thing. It's not like there's hundreds of years of bridge design, with gradual improvements made to it over the decades. Computers would probably have ended up alot better if we'd taken that sort of an approach, but it's much too late now. That said, when it comes to safety-of-life systems, there are very stringent processes in place. Linux does not even remotely fit into its workflows. Linux will never be a safety system, and we should be glad that it isn't.
- justapassenger 3y ago
  > and everything you build is pretty much a whole new thing. There’s ton of cookie cutter systems being built, especially as things like could bring standardization (mostly to achieve vendor lock in, but that’s different point). Building 100th web app for some random business isn’t whole new thing.
- patrick451 3y ago
  > I think the true reason for this is that software is orders of magnitude more complex than civil engineering - and everything you build is pretty much a whole new thing. This is a lie software devs tell themselves to justify producing a shitty product while simultaneously patting themselves on the back for the brilliance they must posses to navigate such wondrous complexity.
- adhesive_wombat 3y ago
  > software is orders of magnitude more complex than civil engineering Come off it. Even if software was that superhumanly complex (most software actually isn't all that complicated, most of it isn't even new, and it has a unique benefit that it can be easily isolated and modularised in a way that physical things usually cannot, and you can easily "checkpoint" things that work and iterate), civil engineering is just as complex and fraught. Buildings, bridges, railways, etc have thousands upon thousands of interlocking details to get right. Structural physics, ground conditions, materials, electrics, HVAC, drainage, specification and sourcing of parts, safety, regulations, building scheduling. It goes on and on. And fixing stuff is more than pushing a new commit.
justapassenger 3y ago
IMO, it’s because software engineering is still in infancy. There are very rapid changes in what and how you build things every 5-10 years. But I agree with the point. I think we are at the stage where we view coders (who’s main job should be to “just” write great code) and engineers (who’s main job should be to build safe and cost effective solutions to problems) as interchangeable. Those are different jobs.
- Shawnj2 3y ago
  Funny enough I work in a small aerospace company and I have been tasked with engineering things before. Technically my initial position was as an engineer and not an SWE even though my degree was in CS
nradov 3y ago
What is a "software engineer"? Should Excel users be required to obtain certification before they're allowed to write macros? All cell phones in the USA are legally required to be able to call 911 even if they don't have an active carrier contract.

by ccakes 3y ago

PrimeMcFly 3y ago

> It’s wild to me that software engineers don’t need to be certified in a similar vein to civil engineers. At the moment any coder can claim to be a software engineer. Certification is needed so we can draw a distinction between those who can code, and those can can engineer software solutions, as well as holding them to a higher standard.

lloeki 3y ago
In France it is: "engineer"-the-title specifically means having a degree from a state-certified engineering school, and when you get the degree the state inscribes you as an engineer in a national registry. Whether it's software engineer or another domain is immaterial, the title "engineer" is heavily protected and making use of it without the degree is liable for pursuit the same way claiming to be a doctor and delivering medical advice when one is not: in the same way as with the Hippocrates oath, engineers are held to a high moral standard of ethics and integrity. The words "élite de la nation" often comes up - and often in derogatory ways from outsiders - but it is borne out from these requirements, that engineers are to be placed in position of great power and corresponding responsibility, meaning they have a duty to call the shots in high stakes situations in ways that go beyond technical knowledge and mastery but also factor in intellectual and moral values. One can get a masters degree in computer science and/or software development though, which is the same "knowledge level" of studies (an engineering degree doubles as a masters degree), but that does not make one an engineer, which is a corps (in the same sense that e.g US Marines are a corps). This dates back to Napoleon and the creation of "classes préparatoires" and public (state-owned) engineer schools, heavily inspired by the military. Case in point Polytechnique is a military school (although the goal is not to produce armymen), and entering any of the three french military corps (the navy, the air force, and the "ground" army) as an officer goes through the same classe préparatoire process. This design has been relaxed over time and for quite a time there are private engineering schools that don't require going through these first two prépa years, but they still require the state certification to legally produce engineers.
- PrimeMcFly 3y ago
  I know that approach is in quite a lot of countries and something I agree with. It's not very common in the Anglosphere, unfortunately. What do you call audio engineers?
  - ThePowerOfFuet 3y ago
    DJs.
    - PrimeMcFly 3y ago
      No. Sound/audio engineers are not DJs.
- JTyQZSnP3cQGa8B 3y ago
  You’re describing the "ingénieur diplômé d’état" which is controlled. Everyone can be a regular engineer in France.
  - lloeki 3y ago
    I stand corrected.
SoftTalker 3y ago
It’s kind of like anyone with a bit of common sense and a few common tools can build a doghouse, but you need to know a lot more to build a skyscraper.
nradov 3y ago
Certification isn't "needed" in any meaningful sense. But the IEEE does offer a pretty good software certification program if that's what you want. You're welcome to make certification a hiring requirement at your company, and it will ensure that candidates know at least the basics. https://www.computer.org/product/education/professional-software-developer-certification https://www.computer.org/product/education/professional-soft... Of course, most of the best software engineers have no certifications.
- PrimeMcFly 3y ago
  Certification is needed to hold software "engineers" accountable for shoddy software. Eventually I expect anglo countries to catch up to what other developed countries do and regulate the term.
  - nradov 3y ago
    Nah, there's no need. If customers don't want shoddy software then they should specify clear quality requirements in their purchase contracts.
    - PrimeMcFly 3y ago
      There is absolutely a need, and it is inevitable licensing/certification will happen at some point. If software engineers screw up code for say a pacemaker, or an airplane, or a self-driving car, they should be held to the same standards as a civil engineer who was negligent in a bridge design which led to deaths.
      - nradov 3y ago
        Nah, you're just making things up. Irrational cranks have been pushing for certification for decades but in the real world no one cares. For pacemakers the FDA already certifies medical devices based on the entire design, manufacturing, and testing process of which software is only one part. Requiring certification for the programmers involved would be just stupid and accomplish nothing.

rcarmo 3y ago

This was actually something that my course (one of the first computer engineering degrees in Portugal) struggled with back in 1994. Engineering guilds (and governments) are simply not able to cope with the concept of software being critical, but the key thing at the time was that software engineering was not even acknowledged as “engineering” by the local Engineering guild (which was stuck in a loop around the physicality of civil, electronics and mechanical engineering). They still haven’t figured it all out.

plasticeagle 3y ago

I think the true reason for this is that software is orders of magnitude more complex than civil engineering - and everything you build is pretty much a whole new thing. It's not like there's hundreds of years of bridge design, with gradual improvements made to it over the decades. Computers would probably have ended up alot better if we'd taken that sort of an approach, but it's much too late now. That said, when it comes to safety-of-life systems, there are very stringent processes in place. Linux does not even remotely fit into its workflows. Linux will never be a safety system, and we should be glad that it isn't.

justapassenger 3y ago
> and everything you build is pretty much a whole new thing. There’s ton of cookie cutter systems being built, especially as things like could bring standardization (mostly to achieve vendor lock in, but that’s different point). Building 100th web app for some random business isn’t whole new thing.
patrick451 3y ago
> I think the true reason for this is that software is orders of magnitude more complex than civil engineering - and everything you build is pretty much a whole new thing. This is a lie software devs tell themselves to justify producing a shitty product while simultaneously patting themselves on the back for the brilliance they must posses to navigate such wondrous complexity.
adhesive_wombat 3y ago
> software is orders of magnitude more complex than civil engineering Come off it. Even if software was that superhumanly complex (most software actually isn't all that complicated, most of it isn't even new, and it has a unique benefit that it can be easily isolated and modularised in a way that physical things usually cannot, and you can easily "checkpoint" things that work and iterate), civil engineering is just as complex and fraught. Buildings, bridges, railways, etc have thousands upon thousands of interlocking details to get right. Structural physics, ground conditions, materials, electrics, HVAC, drainage, specification and sourcing of parts, safety, regulations, building scheduling. It goes on and on. And fixing stuff is more than pushing a new commit.

justapassenger 3y ago

IMO, it’s because software engineering is still in infancy. There are very rapid changes in what and how you build things every 5-10 years. But I agree with the point. I think we are at the stage where we view coders (who’s main job should be to “just” write great code) and engineers (who’s main job should be to build safe and cost effective solutions to problems) as interchangeable. Those are different jobs.

Shawnj2 3y ago
Funny enough I work in a small aerospace company and I have been tasked with engineering things before. Technically my initial position was as an engineer and not an SWE even though my degree was in CS

nradov 3y ago

What is a "software engineer"? Should Excel users be required to obtain certification before they're allowed to write macros? All cell phones in the USA are legally required to be able to call 911 even if they don't have an active carrier contract.