5 ms·

Can Swift really be called a success when it's only being used in the very narrow niche (the Apple software ecosystem - and only because it's essentially dicate

Can Swift really be called a success when it's only being used in the very narrow niche (the Apple software ecosystem - and only because it's essentially dicated by the platform owner)?

pjmlp 3y ago
Yes, that is how languages become a success on the market, either being pushed by the platform owner no matter what, or by having a framework written in them that everyone feels like using. Everything else are aspiring extras in the cinema of programing languages, waiting on the sidelines for that major role that will come someday, it really will, one just has to believe enough.
- throwawaymaths 3y ago
  Counterexample: python
  - Aerbil313 3y ago
    Yeah, python filled an essential gap of a easy, high level language.
- mike_hearn 3y ago
  Counter-example: Kotlin.
  - doctor_eval 3y ago
    How is that a counter example? Doesn’t Kotlin fulfil a similar role for Android?
    - mike_hearn 3y ago
      Kotlin wasn't created by Google and wasn't pushed by them. It's more like they accepted it because the Android developer base was adopting it organically en-masse anyway. That's also the case for many other places where Java is used.
      - pjmlp 3y ago
        It was pushed by Android team, the same folks that came up with Jetpack stuff. Additionally JetBrains has their fingers all over the place in Android. Kotlin, Android Studio a mix of InteliJ and Clion, Compose,...
  - still_grokking 3y ago
    That's not a counter example: https://miro.medium.com/v2/resize:fit:720/format:webp/1*sojKQBiLQ77E9mBEOahypA.png https://miro.medium.com/v2/resize:fit:720/format:webp/1*sojK... Kotlin would be likely still nowhere without Google and Android.
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    Not at all, given the way Google is pushing it on Android, they are even mischievous enough to compare Kotlin with Java 6 when going on about why Kotlin. For all practical purposes ART has turned into the Kotlin Virtual Machine. However it so happens, that to keep the advantage of using Java libraries in the Android ecosystem, they actually need to support newer Java libraries unless they feel like rewriting all of them into Kotlin. So Android 12 and 13 got a subset of Java 11 LTS, and Android 14 is getting Java 17 LTS support. That doesn't change the reasoning that Android is all about Kotlin nowadays, unless one is writing platform code itself.
    - mike_hearn 3y ago
      The idea Kotlin wouldn't be successful without Android isn't right. It was taking off in a big way even before Android did anything with it officially. Google's stated rationale for adopting it was because developers were already migrating to it regardless of what Google wanted.
      - pjmlp 3y ago
        Google is in bed with JetBrains in what concerns Android.

Can Swift really be called a success when it's only being used in the very narrow niche (the Apple software ecosystem - and only because it's essentially dicated by the platform owner)?

pjmlp 3y ago

Yes, that is how languages become a success on the market, either being pushed by the platform owner no matter what, or by having a framework written in them that everyone feels like using. Everything else are aspiring extras in the cinema of programing languages, waiting on the sidelines for that major role that will come someday, it really will, one just has to believe enough.

throwawaymaths 3y ago
Counterexample: python
- Aerbil313 3y ago
  Yeah, python filled an essential gap of a easy, high level language.
mike_hearn 3y ago
Counter-example: Kotlin.
- doctor_eval 3y ago
  How is that a counter example? Doesn’t Kotlin fulfil a similar role for Android?
  - mike_hearn 3y ago
    Kotlin wasn't created by Google and wasn't pushed by them. It's more like they accepted it because the Android developer base was adopting it organically en-masse anyway. That's also the case for many other places where Java is used.
    - pjmlp 3y ago
      It was pushed by Android team, the same folks that came up with Jetpack stuff. Additionally JetBrains has their fingers all over the place in Android. Kotlin, Android Studio a mix of InteliJ and Clion, Compose,...
- still_grokking 3y ago
  That's not a counter example: https://miro.medium.com/v2/resize:fit:720/format:webp/1*sojKQBiLQ77E9mBEOahypA.png https://miro.medium.com/v2/resize:fit:720/format:webp/1*sojK... Kotlin would be likely still nowhere without Google and Android.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  Not at all, given the way Google is pushing it on Android, they are even mischievous enough to compare Kotlin with Java 6 when going on about why Kotlin. For all practical purposes ART has turned into the Kotlin Virtual Machine. However it so happens, that to keep the advantage of using Java libraries in the Android ecosystem, they actually need to support newer Java libraries unless they feel like rewriting all of them into Kotlin. So Android 12 and 13 got a subset of Java 11 LTS, and Android 14 is getting Java 17 LTS support. That doesn't change the reasoning that Android is all about Kotlin nowadays, unless one is writing platform code itself.
  - mike_hearn 3y ago
    The idea Kotlin wouldn't be successful without Android isn't right. It was taking off in a big way even before Android did anything with it officially. Google's stated rationale for adopting it was because developers were already migrating to it regardless of what Google wanted.
    - pjmlp 3y ago
      Google is in bed with JetBrains in what concerns Android.