4 ms·

Groups were advantaged over groups. Your line of reasoning itself draws a boundary--in history--and thereby quite conveniently sidesteps the issue. And yes, a

Groups were advantaged over groups. Your line of reasoning itself draws a boundary--in history--and thereby quite conveniently sidesteps the issue. And yes, a pair of Ethiopian immigrants, even in 2023, face structural racism over and above their Ukrainian friends, alas, arising from America's legacy of slavery -- hence affrimative action.

lom888 3y ago
But perpetuating the logic of groups being advantaged over groups only keeps the identitarian mindset going. By openly favoring certain groups the discrimination never ends. All you need to do is look at India where the active discrimination in favor of scheduled castes goes on ad infinitum to see that the effect of any discrimination amplifies sectarianism. The line needs to be drawn somewhere. You don't fight fire with fire, you fight it with water. You don't solve discrimination with more discrimination, you fight it by having people not accept the logic of identitarianism.
- mcv 3y ago
  The discrimination doesn't go away if you ignore it. The discrimination has continued. It still is. Not forced by the law any more, but still many times perpetrated by individuals based on other individuals' membership or a perceived group. That is the real identitarian mindset you should be worried about.
  - pbhjpbhj 3y ago
    Discrimination goes away when you stop discriminating, perpetuating it doesn't stop it. It's like you're saying you hit me, hitting is wrong, so I'm going to hit you back ... and you think that will end hitting for good. Er, if it's wrong, stop doing it.
- ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
  > perpetuating the logic of groups being advantaged over groups only keeps the identitarian mindset going maybe, maybe not - the goal, however, is not to "not keep the 'identitarian' mindset going", it is to right past wrongs, make those wronged people whole, and only then ignore identity, as long as everyone else can do it too.
  - vacuity 3y ago
    > the goal, however, is not to "not keep the 'identitarian' mindset going" I wonder about that. Unfortunately, neither of us has evidence and is just spouting opinions. I'm not being snarky; the space of "maybe this person has a different goal, and maybe they don't even realize it" is a quagmire. I agree with the rest of your statement, and I think that's the only part necessary to drive progress. Who cares what others hold in their psyches as long as actual problems are solved? (I care, but I don't believe in thoughtcrime, so I won't force the issue.)
    - ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
      > I wonder about that. I don't: it's pretty clear if you look into the history and explanation of it. > Unfortunately, neither of us has evidence and is just spouting opinions. I'm not being snarky; the space of "maybe this person has a different goal, and maybe they don't even realize it" is a quagmire you are correct that different people have different goals, and the ones who are in favor of affirmative action have the goals I described in the post you responded to. I have no doubt that people who oppose affirmative action may have different goals, ones which lead them to oppose it, but luckily, I do not require evidence to be convinced that wrongs should be righted before calling everything even.
  - yakshaving_jgt 3y ago
    > right past wrongs, make those wronged people whole, and only then ignore identity Ok, so what’s the dollar amount? At what point can we say the past wrongs have been righted, and that everyone should stop talking about identity now?
    - ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
      that's an interesting question, but not one I feel we need to decide now. I'd be happy to hear your suggestions, but obviously "0" wouldn't be a workable one e.g. it should be at least 1 dollar, so we can start with 1 dollar without needing to decide the upper limit indeed, it seems like a question intended to stop the action entirely, rather than one intended to discover the right magnitude of action as for when everyone can stop talking about racial identity: the racism ongoing today itself is an example of this, so when racists stop doing so first, anti-racists can, second
DrSAR 3y ago
Well, that pair of Ethiopian immigrants might be doing OK [1]. Immigrants from Africa esp if they are blessed to come from places where English is taught and education levels are higher do particularly well (e.g. Nigeria) and appear to outperform people (incl whites) born in the US. I concede that this data might be wrong in all sorts of ways but wouldn't it be nice if it taught us ways to 'lift up all boats'? [1] https://news.ku.edu/2020/06/18/study-shows-african-immigrants-do-well-despite-differences-among-them https://news.ku.edu/2020/06/18/study-shows-african-immigrant...
rayiner 3y ago
Ethiopian immigrants do not face “structural racism,” which is a term that refers to the structural effects of past discrimination. They may face ordinary racism, i.e. discrimination in the present, but so do other groups. Ordinary discrimination doesn’t necessarily have structural effects. I haven’t seen studies looking at Ethiopians specifically. But Nigerian and Ghanaian immigrants achieve comparable or better economic outcomes compared to whites. https://paa.confex.com/paa/2017/mediafile/ExtendedAbstract/Paper16232/Sakamoto_Wang_Nigerian_PAA.pdf https://paa.confex.com/paa/2017/mediafile/ExtendedAbstract/P... (“Among persons aged 25 to 54, Ghanaian men do not differ from white men while Ghanaian and Nigerian women do not differ from white women in terms of occupational status after controlling for education, age, marital status, and the presence of children, but Nigerian men achieve higher occupational status than comparable white men.”). Note that this is controlling for education, so can’t be explained by saying these immigrants have higher education levels. And of course, racists can’t tell a Ghanaian person apart from an Ethiopian person.

lom888 3y ago

But perpetuating the logic of groups being advantaged over groups only keeps the identitarian mindset going. By openly favoring certain groups the discrimination never ends. All you need to do is look at India where the active discrimination in favor of scheduled castes goes on ad infinitum to see that the effect of any discrimination amplifies sectarianism. The line needs to be drawn somewhere. You don't fight fire with fire, you fight it with water. You don't solve discrimination with more discrimination, you fight it by having people not accept the logic of identitarianism.

mcv 3y ago
The discrimination doesn't go away if you ignore it. The discrimination has continued. It still is. Not forced by the law any more, but still many times perpetrated by individuals based on other individuals' membership or a perceived group. That is the real identitarian mindset you should be worried about.
- pbhjpbhj 3y ago
  Discrimination goes away when you stop discriminating, perpetuating it doesn't stop it. It's like you're saying you hit me, hitting is wrong, so I'm going to hit you back ... and you think that will end hitting for good. Er, if it's wrong, stop doing it.
ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
> perpetuating the logic of groups being advantaged over groups only keeps the identitarian mindset going maybe, maybe not - the goal, however, is not to "not keep the 'identitarian' mindset going", it is to right past wrongs, make those wronged people whole, and only then ignore identity, as long as everyone else can do it too.
- vacuity 3y ago
  > the goal, however, is not to "not keep the 'identitarian' mindset going" I wonder about that. Unfortunately, neither of us has evidence and is just spouting opinions. I'm not being snarky; the space of "maybe this person has a different goal, and maybe they don't even realize it" is a quagmire. I agree with the rest of your statement, and I think that's the only part necessary to drive progress. Who cares what others hold in their psyches as long as actual problems are solved? (I care, but I don't believe in thoughtcrime, so I won't force the issue.)
  - ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
    > I wonder about that. I don't: it's pretty clear if you look into the history and explanation of it. > Unfortunately, neither of us has evidence and is just spouting opinions. I'm not being snarky; the space of "maybe this person has a different goal, and maybe they don't even realize it" is a quagmire you are correct that different people have different goals, and the ones who are in favor of affirmative action have the goals I described in the post you responded to. I have no doubt that people who oppose affirmative action may have different goals, ones which lead them to oppose it, but luckily, I do not require evidence to be convinced that wrongs should be righted before calling everything even.
- yakshaving_jgt 3y ago
  > right past wrongs, make those wronged people whole, and only then ignore identity Ok, so what’s the dollar amount? At what point can we say the past wrongs have been righted, and that everyone should stop talking about identity now?
  - ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
    that's an interesting question, but not one I feel we need to decide now. I'd be happy to hear your suggestions, but obviously "0" wouldn't be a workable one e.g. it should be at least 1 dollar, so we can start with 1 dollar without needing to decide the upper limit indeed, it seems like a question intended to stop the action entirely, rather than one intended to discover the right magnitude of action as for when everyone can stop talking about racial identity: the racism ongoing today itself is an example of this, so when racists stop doing so first, anti-racists can, second

DrSAR 3y ago

Well, that pair of Ethiopian immigrants might be doing OK [1]. Immigrants from Africa esp if they are blessed to come from places where English is taught and education levels are higher do particularly well (e.g. Nigeria) and appear to outperform people (incl whites) born in the US. I concede that this data might be wrong in all sorts of ways but wouldn't it be nice if it taught us ways to 'lift up all boats'? [1] https://news.ku.edu/2020/06/18/study-shows-african-immigrants-do-well-despite-differences-among-them https://news.ku.edu/2020/06/18/study-shows-african-immigrant...

rayiner 3y ago

Ethiopian immigrants do not face “structural racism,” which is a term that refers to the structural effects of past discrimination. They may face ordinary racism, i.e. discrimination in the present, but so do other groups. Ordinary discrimination doesn’t necessarily have structural effects. I haven’t seen studies looking at Ethiopians specifically. But Nigerian and Ghanaian immigrants achieve comparable or better economic outcomes compared to whites. https://paa.confex.com/paa/2017/mediafile/ExtendedAbstract/Paper16232/Sakamoto_Wang_Nigerian_PAA.pdf https://paa.confex.com/paa/2017/mediafile/ExtendedAbstract/P... (“Among persons aged 25 to 54, Ghanaian men do not differ from white men while Ghanaian and Nigerian women do not differ from white women in terms of occupational status after controlling for education, age, marital status, and the presence of children, but Nigerian men achieve higher occupational status than comparable white men.”). Note that this is controlling for education, so can’t be explained by saying these immigrants have higher education levels. And of course, racists can’t tell a Ghanaian person apart from an Ethiopian person.