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I don’t think I’m defending Amazon so much as noting that Amazon does not have a monopoly on retail or even e-commerce. I don’t think issues should be picking

I don’t think I’m defending Amazon so much as noting that Amazon does not have a monopoly on retail or even e-commerce. I don’t think issues should be picking sides so much as seeking the truth. Amazon had 38% of online retail market share [0] and only 9% of total retail market share [1]. So I think it’s going to be hard to show antitrust violations without some price collusion. [0] https://www.statista.com/statistics/274255/market-share-of-the-leading-retailers-in-us-e-commerce/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/274255/market-share-of-t... [1] https://www.pymnts.com/news/retail/2022/amazon-and-walmart-market-share-battle-crossed-new-lines-in-2022/ https://www.pymnts.com/news/retail/2022/amazon-and-walmart-m...

lisasays 3y ago
Anitrust actions do not require the presence of a monopoly. Rather, they addresses situations where companies unreasonably exert power to lessen competition. The idea is to prevent monopolies from forming in the first place.
- prepend 3y ago
  > unreasonably exert power to lessen competition. The unreasonable part is where the monopoly power comes in. Companies lessening competition happens all the time, it’s the monopoly aspect that triggers antitrust.
  - grimgoldgo 3y ago
    There are three primary antitrust laws, only one of them focuses on monopoly power in the way you describe. The Clayton and FTC acts are broader.
  - ThatPlayer 3y ago
    Monopoly power does not require a literal monopoly. Straight from the FTC: https://www.ftc.gov/advice-guidance/competition-guidance/guide-antitrust-laws/single-firm-conduct/monopolization-defined https://www.ftc.gov/advice-guidance/competition-guidance/gui... > Courts do not require a literal monopoly before applying rules for single firm conduct; that term is used as shorthand for a firm with significant and durable market power I'd say Amazon has "significant and durable market power"
    - robertlagrant 3y ago
      What does that mean? Does Microsoft have that with Windows? Intel with x86? Apple with phones? What is the scale of those words?
      - ThatPlayer 3y ago
        It means it's up to the courts to decide on a case by case basis.
        robertlagrant 3y ago
        That sounds...arbitrary and subject to politicisation.
        ThatPlayer 3y ago
        What method wouldn't be? Putting it to a committee would have similar problems. Writing it into a law would be too static. Especially because the first part of determining marketshare and market power is determining the market. New markets happen all the time, with old markets dying out. Twenty years ago, smartphones wouldn't have been a market. Fifteen years ago: streaming services. Like going back to your "Intel with x86", what is the market? x86_64 CPUs? Sure they have monopoly power. All CPUs? Now they don't have as much because they're competing with ARM too. Mobile phone CPUs? I don't think there's been a new Intel phone since the Asus Zenfone 2 (2015).
        robertlagrant 3y ago
        The method of letting the markets decide would work, I think.
    - willcipriano 3y ago
      I suspect this action might have been related to this announcement: https://www.ftc.gov/legal-library/browse/policy-statement-regarding-scope-unfair-methods-competition-under-section-5-federal-trade-commission https://www.ftc.gov/legal-library/browse/policy-statement-re... [pdf] article - https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2022/11/ftc-restores-rigorous-enforcement-law-banning-unfair-methods-competition https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2022/11/... They are more rigorously enforcing laws against unfair practices, monopoly or not. "Unfair methods of competition, the policy statement explains, are tactics that seek to gain an advantage while avoiding competing on the merits, and that tend to reduce competition in the market."
- 0xParlay 3y ago
  Can they save me from Comcast first? I’d be curious how that backlog refinement meeting goes. > See that filter that orders priority by realized value? Remove it and order by campaign contributions
  - willcipriano 3y ago
    Translated from non incriminating corporate speak to plain English: "We have to been seen doing something, the election cycle is fast approaching. What if we go after Comcast?" "They gave a important senators son a no show job so they are off limits for the time being" "Amazon?" "Let me check, actually they haven't done much for us lately, let's shake them down, if they give my cousin a few million for consulting we give them a small fine, if not we give them the law"
  - dragonwriter 3y ago
    > Can they save me from Comcast first? Talk to the FCC, probably.
    - mr_toad 3y ago
      The Friends of Comcast Club?
  - tomlin 3y ago
    [flagged]
api 3y ago
Amazon has a near-monopoly at this point on online retail in the USA, mostly owing to their logistics network and ability to deliver so easily combined with the one stop shop advantage.
- benced 3y ago
  “Amazon had 38% of online retail market share”
  - ROTMetro 3y ago
    As a commentors above pointed out, online market share includes Airline sites, etc, and Delta alone is a top 5 online purchasing site. Show me what “Amazon had 38% of online retail market share” actually means. That they have 100% of 90 areas measured and 0% of airline ticket sales?
- bitterspeak 3y ago
  Being good at something does not make you a monopoly. They are not actively blocking other online retail platforms. This is not a statement to defend Amazon but the fact that I prefer Amazon for its features (like same day delivery) is just plain capitalism. The customers have a choice to buy from a retailer they prefer and the important thing is that I still have an option to choose where I make my purchases.
  - _gabe_ 3y ago
    This exactly. I tried buying from other online retailers recently to support other businesses directly, and their websites are replete with what I would consider dark patterns. Things like listing 2-day shipping and then burying the fact that you'll get the item 2 days from when it ships but it will take them a month to process it. Seriously, this is a thing. At least with Amazon I know I'm actually getting it in 2 days or they'll give me a refund (and often times still give me the product too).
    - RoyalHenOil 3y ago
Sakos 3y ago
You don't need a monopoly to engage in anti-competitive behavior. Ffs. Antitrust isn't necessarily about monopolies. How is that so hard to understand?
- aaronblohowiak 3y ago
  The OP of the thread you are replying in claimed “so obviously monopolistic”…
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - Sakos 3y ago
    I really don't give a shit, tbh. You can't argue that the FTC is unjustified by saying that the OP is wrong in saying it's monopolistic, when FTC isn't saying they're a monopoly. Like, what even is this discussion?
subsubzero 3y ago
Agree, (these are not the droids you are looking for). Look to Google, Meta, and the telecoms as they are the most eggregious and abuse their market position blatantly.
EA-3167 3y ago
This antitrust action isn't about their retail sector though... I can only assume the many people acting without that understanding here didn't read the article.
dragonwriter 3y ago
> Amazon had 38% of online retail market share Sure, but “online retail” is pretty clearly an overly broad market including separate segments between which there is no substitution effect, and there are a whole lot of segments within that where Amazon has majority (>50%) market share (safety & security, communications, home audio, portable audio, etc.) Not that this is about retail, per se, anyway, except maybe in leveraging market position in retail as an aspect of the anticompetitive behavior regarding sellers planning on using their fulfillment services.
- wilg 3y ago
  Where are you getting that data?
atdrummond 3y ago
Online retail includes airlines websites, for example (Delta recently shared they were a Top 5 US online retailer in their investor presentations). I am sure that for CPG, Amazon’s share is significantly higher.

lisasays 3y ago

Anitrust actions do not require the presence of a monopoly. Rather, they addresses situations where companies unreasonably exert power to lessen competition. The idea is to prevent monopolies from forming in the first place.

prepend 3y ago
> unreasonably exert power to lessen competition. The unreasonable part is where the monopoly power comes in. Companies lessening competition happens all the time, it’s the monopoly aspect that triggers antitrust.
- grimgoldgo 3y ago
  There are three primary antitrust laws, only one of them focuses on monopoly power in the way you describe. The Clayton and FTC acts are broader.
- ThatPlayer 3y ago
  Monopoly power does not require a literal monopoly. Straight from the FTC: https://www.ftc.gov/advice-guidance/competition-guidance/guide-antitrust-laws/single-firm-conduct/monopolization-defined https://www.ftc.gov/advice-guidance/competition-guidance/gui... > Courts do not require a literal monopoly before applying rules for single firm conduct; that term is used as shorthand for a firm with significant and durable market power I'd say Amazon has "significant and durable market power"
  - robertlagrant 3y ago
    What does that mean? Does Microsoft have that with Windows? Intel with x86? Apple with phones? What is the scale of those words?
    - ThatPlayer 3y ago
      It means it's up to the courts to decide on a case by case basis.
      - robertlagrant 3y ago
        That sounds...arbitrary and subject to politicisation.
        ThatPlayer 3y ago
        What method wouldn't be? Putting it to a committee would have similar problems. Writing it into a law would be too static. Especially because the first part of determining marketshare and market power is determining the market. New markets happen all the time, with old markets dying out. Twenty years ago, smartphones wouldn't have been a market. Fifteen years ago: streaming services. Like going back to your "Intel with x86", what is the market? x86_64 CPUs? Sure they have monopoly power. All CPUs? Now they don't have as much because they're competing with ARM too. Mobile phone CPUs? I don't think there's been a new Intel phone since the Asus Zenfone 2 (2015).
        robertlagrant 3y ago
        The method of letting the markets decide would work, I think.
  - willcipriano 3y ago
    I suspect this action might have been related to this announcement: https://www.ftc.gov/legal-library/browse/policy-statement-regarding-scope-unfair-methods-competition-under-section-5-federal-trade-commission https://www.ftc.gov/legal-library/browse/policy-statement-re... [pdf] article - https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2022/11/ftc-restores-rigorous-enforcement-law-banning-unfair-methods-competition https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2022/11/... They are more rigorously enforcing laws against unfair practices, monopoly or not. "Unfair methods of competition, the policy statement explains, are tactics that seek to gain an advantage while avoiding competing on the merits, and that tend to reduce competition in the market."
0xParlay 3y ago
Can they save me from Comcast first? I’d be curious how that backlog refinement meeting goes. > See that filter that orders priority by realized value? Remove it and order by campaign contributions
- willcipriano 3y ago
  Translated from non incriminating corporate speak to plain English: "We have to been seen doing something, the election cycle is fast approaching. What if we go after Comcast?" "They gave a important senators son a no show job so they are off limits for the time being" "Amazon?" "Let me check, actually they haven't done much for us lately, let's shake them down, if they give my cousin a few million for consulting we give them a small fine, if not we give them the law"
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  > Can they save me from Comcast first? Talk to the FCC, probably.
  - mr_toad 3y ago
    The Friends of Comcast Club?
- tomlin 3y ago
  [flagged]

api 3y ago

Amazon has a near-monopoly at this point on online retail in the USA, mostly owing to their logistics network and ability to deliver so easily combined with the one stop shop advantage.

benced 3y ago
“Amazon had 38% of online retail market share”
- ROTMetro 3y ago
  As a commentors above pointed out, online market share includes Airline sites, etc, and Delta alone is a top 5 online purchasing site. Show me what “Amazon had 38% of online retail market share” actually means. That they have 100% of 90 areas measured and 0% of airline ticket sales?
bitterspeak 3y ago
Being good at something does not make you a monopoly. They are not actively blocking other online retail platforms. This is not a statement to defend Amazon but the fact that I prefer Amazon for its features (like same day delivery) is just plain capitalism. The customers have a choice to buy from a retailer they prefer and the important thing is that I still have an option to choose where I make my purchases.
- _gabe_ 3y ago
  This exactly. I tried buying from other online retailers recently to support other businesses directly, and their websites are replete with what I would consider dark patterns. Things like listing 2-day shipping and then burying the fact that you'll get the item 2 days from when it ships but it will take them a month to process it. Seriously, this is a thing. At least with Amazon I know I'm actually getting it in 2 days or they'll give me a refund (and often times still give me the product too).
  - RoyalHenOil 3y ago

Sakos 3y ago

You don't need a monopoly to engage in anti-competitive behavior. Ffs. Antitrust isn't necessarily about monopolies. How is that so hard to understand?

aaronblohowiak 3y ago
The OP of the thread you are replying in claimed “so obviously monopolistic”…
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- Sakos 3y ago
  I really don't give a shit, tbh. You can't argue that the FTC is unjustified by saying that the OP is wrong in saying it's monopolistic, when FTC isn't saying they're a monopoly. Like, what even is this discussion?

subsubzero 3y ago

Agree, (these are not the droids you are looking for). Look to Google, Meta, and the telecoms as they are the most eggregious and abuse their market position blatantly.

EA-3167 3y ago

This antitrust action isn't about their retail sector though... I can only assume the many people acting without that understanding here didn't read the article.

dragonwriter 3y ago

> Amazon had 38% of online retail market share Sure, but “online retail” is pretty clearly an overly broad market including separate segments between which there is no substitution effect, and there are a whole lot of segments within that where Amazon has majority (>50%) market share (safety & security, communications, home audio, portable audio, etc.) Not that this is about retail, per se, anyway, except maybe in leveraging market position in retail as an aspect of the anticompetitive behavior regarding sellers planning on using their fulfillment services.

wilg 3y ago
Where are you getting that data?

atdrummond 3y ago

Online retail includes airlines websites, for example (Delta recently shared they were a Top 5 US online retailer in their investor presentations). I am sure that for CPG, Amazon’s share is significantly higher.