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I don't understand (and don't see answers on Google) about how an "offline digital euro" would work. Unless the EU comes up with some magically unhackable hardw

by sigmar 3y ago

I don't understand (and don't see answers on Google) about how an "offline digital euro" would work. Unless the EU comes up with some magically unhackable hardware/software combo, or the 'offline' transfers are explicitly not trustless (ie- I can see your digitally-signed transfer of 5 euros, but will only be able to verify that it settles when I eventually get a connection)

papichulo2023 3y ago
Cash is also hackable (even more so) so I dont think that is a blocker. And about the online thing, we are moving towards a always-online-world fairly quickly.
- sigmar 3y ago
  yea, maybe they're thinking it'll look like a combination of both- using smartphone secure element and less trust in settlement of the transfer. It sort of makes me think of the xkcd comic though: some EU official was like "just make digital currencies settle offline, how long could that take, a year?" https://xkcd.com/1425/ https://xkcd.com/1425/
- eggy 3y ago
  Yes, but if you have the cash in your pocket, it's not. Robbery is not hacking, and you can confront your robber. Hacking allows nerds to dip into thousands of pockets with hardly a chance of getting caught. The modern world and its youth seem to be very eager to live the digital life and give up all under the guise of "I have nothing to hide" as justification for surrendering liberties. Government centralized digital currencies are the beginning of the end. Europe was heading for the dark ages again, and this will only speed it up.
KRAKRISMOTT 3y ago
You would think with all the "offline-first" blogposts dominating HN's front page right now, people here would have some faith in CRDTs and conflict resolution algorithms.
imtringued 3y ago
The E-Money Institutes of the early 00s have shown that an anonymous token scheme is actually pretty unworkable. Most of them switched to something akin to what GNU Taler does. A server has to verify the validity of the tokens.
Laaas 3y ago
"Offline digital euro" can be accomplished through traditional checks. I sign a transfer (digitally) and you take it to the issuer and retrieve the money. If you make checks for more money than you have (double spending) you get prosecuted, i.e. violence fixes it.
- sigmar 3y ago
  That's not how it is described in the FAQ, it refers to currency stored on device, transfers verified by the offline device, and in a private way where the banks and central bank can not look at who made the transfer. >Offline digital euro payments are instant transfers which could be made without an internet connection, as long as there is physical proximity between the devices of the payer and the payee as it happens with cash now. Users would be able to store digital euros in their device for offline use, below a certain threshold exactly as we do with cash in our wallets. Offline digital euro payments would be validated “peer-to-peer”: the payer and payee would directly verify that the transfer of value between them has effectively happened. Such payments would be used mainly for small payments. Just like cash, the details of your offline payments in digital euro would not be visible to anyone – neither your bank, nor the European Central Bank.
  - matthewdgreen 3y ago
    Offline payments seem like an invitation for double-spending and fraud, even if the amounts are limited. Plus: we know how to build private payments safely with an online bulletin-board to prevent double spending. Are there really a lot of applications where small amounts of network access is totally impossible?
  - Laaas 3y ago
    Should have written "could" instead of "can", it was a hypothetical not meant to describe the actual implementation, which seems odd? What magic are they using? I think they're assuming honest devices, which seems dangerous.
grothoff 3y ago
They were clearly told what can be done (like: https://www.suerf.org/docx/f_8ec57b4b3e0f08f05b4793beef0bcd62_69851_suerf.pdf https://www.suerf.org/docx/f_8ec57b4b3e0f08f05b4793beef0bcd6...) and what cannot be done (like: https://taler.net/papers/euro-bearer-online-2021.pdf https://taler.net/papers/euro-bearer-online-2021.pdf) but for politics the technological reality doesn't matter so much, as the decision makers don't care to actually understand the technology.

by sigmar 3y ago

papichulo2023 3y ago

Cash is also hackable (even more so) so I dont think that is a blocker. And about the online thing, we are moving towards a always-online-world fairly quickly.

sigmar 3y ago
yea, maybe they're thinking it'll look like a combination of both- using smartphone secure element and less trust in settlement of the transfer. It sort of makes me think of the xkcd comic though: some EU official was like "just make digital currencies settle offline, how long could that take, a year?" https://xkcd.com/1425/ https://xkcd.com/1425/
eggy 3y ago
Yes, but if you have the cash in your pocket, it's not. Robbery is not hacking, and you can confront your robber. Hacking allows nerds to dip into thousands of pockets with hardly a chance of getting caught. The modern world and its youth seem to be very eager to live the digital life and give up all under the guise of "I have nothing to hide" as justification for surrendering liberties. Government centralized digital currencies are the beginning of the end. Europe was heading for the dark ages again, and this will only speed it up.

KRAKRISMOTT 3y ago

You would think with all the "offline-first" blogposts dominating HN's front page right now, people here would have some faith in CRDTs and conflict resolution algorithms.

imtringued 3y ago

The E-Money Institutes of the early 00s have shown that an anonymous token scheme is actually pretty unworkable. Most of them switched to something akin to what GNU Taler does. A server has to verify the validity of the tokens.

Laaas 3y ago

"Offline digital euro" can be accomplished through traditional checks. I sign a transfer (digitally) and you take it to the issuer and retrieve the money. If you make checks for more money than you have (double spending) you get prosecuted, i.e. violence fixes it.

sigmar 3y ago
That's not how it is described in the FAQ, it refers to currency stored on device, transfers verified by the offline device, and in a private way where the banks and central bank can not look at who made the transfer. >Offline digital euro payments are instant transfers which could be made without an internet connection, as long as there is physical proximity between the devices of the payer and the payee as it happens with cash now. Users would be able to store digital euros in their device for offline use, below a certain threshold exactly as we do with cash in our wallets. Offline digital euro payments would be validated “peer-to-peer”: the payer and payee would directly verify that the transfer of value between them has effectively happened. Such payments would be used mainly for small payments. Just like cash, the details of your offline payments in digital euro would not be visible to anyone – neither your bank, nor the European Central Bank.
- matthewdgreen 3y ago
  Offline payments seem like an invitation for double-spending and fraud, even if the amounts are limited. Plus: we know how to build private payments safely with an online bulletin-board to prevent double spending. Are there really a lot of applications where small amounts of network access is totally impossible?
- Laaas 3y ago
  Should have written "could" instead of "can", it was a hypothetical not meant to describe the actual implementation, which seems odd? What magic are they using? I think they're assuming honest devices, which seems dangerous.

grothoff 3y ago

They were clearly told what can be done (like: https://www.suerf.org/docx/f_8ec57b4b3e0f08f05b4793beef0bcd62_69851_suerf.pdf https://www.suerf.org/docx/f_8ec57b4b3e0f08f05b4793beef0bcd6...) and what cannot be done (like: https://taler.net/papers/euro-bearer-online-2021.pdf https://taler.net/papers/euro-bearer-online-2021.pdf) but for politics the technological reality doesn't matter so much, as the decision makers don't care to actually understand the technology.