8 ms·

Except it's not mostly poor, hardworking ADOS (African descendents of slavery) students that benefit. It's rich, Black students that are benefiting, especially

Except it's not mostly poor, hardworking ADOS (African descendents of slavery) students that benefit. It's rich, Black students that are benefiting, especially those from outside the US and no lineage from slavery. The problem with affirmative action is that everyone is only looking literally at skin color, which is the opposite of what we should be doing.

earthboundkid 3y ago
Yeah, the point should always have been explicitly to be reparations for slavery/Jim Crow and the Native American genocide. But that was never really explicit, and there was a lot of mission drift over the last fifty years.
- prpl 3y ago
  and redlining, and other formal, informal, intentional and unintentional institutional (particularly governmental and financial) policies that limited people’s access to success based on their race.
  - pessimizer 3y ago
    Anything explicitly discriminatory that the government could have done something about and chose not to. We need to forget about "microaggressions" and deal with the macroaggressions. It's typical that white liberals have embarked on the project of detecting subtle clues to the slightest slights and condemning people for them, when they should just treat historical race-based abuse claims like any other compensation claim. If you look at black people's family trees enough, you'll find plenty with specific inheritance claims against their white, slaver ancestors. Black people in America are the descendants of white rapists as well as imported slaves.
  - earthboundkid 3y ago
    Yes. I was sort of lumping redlining in with Jim Crow, although I guess it's technically a distinct thing.
- giardini 3y ago
  Yes, and generations have passed, so that train has left the station, so to speak. Reparations are no longer an acceptable solution.
  - mrguyorama 3y ago
    And yet the grandkids of those slave owners sure as hell still profit from their ill gotten gains
    - BobbyJo 3y ago
      > And yet the grandkids of those slave owners sure as hell still profit from their ill gotten gains. Source? I'd venture to guess most have reverted back to mean wealth given downward mobility rates [0] and the time since slavery ended. [0] https://www.chicagofed.org/research/mobility/intergenerational-economic-mobility https://www.chicagofed.org/research/mobility/intergeneration...
      - Alupis 3y ago
        Not to mention so very few families owned slaves back in the day. The way people talk, you'd think everyone had slaves - no, that was a very small minority of ultra-wealthy people. What about people who's families immigrated here post-slavery? Their tax money has to pay reparations too? Reparations is a non-starter. Any discussion or endeavor to push for reparations is a naked attempt to buy votes with lies.
- QuarterReptile 3y ago
  It's probably a reliable collective action problem. For example, the point of the 1965 Civil Rights Act was to help black men so their families could stay intact, but Howard Smith poison-pilled the whole thing by diverting it to women. For people who are in the military, I point this out in its internship form. The Skillbridge program was designed to facilitate internships for departing servicemen to address difficulties with veteran unemployment, but the spoils mostly go to officers with highly marketable skills, like submarine and cryptography officers. After all, those officers have each been practicing the art of finding and utilizing beneficial programs to their advantage for decades by that point in their lives; why wouldn't they use this one too?
- ajsnigrutin 3y ago
  But people who never owned slaves are now discriminated against so people who never were slaves get priviliges and get accepted to college.
pessimizer 3y ago
Rich ADOS should still benefit, though. We should be looking at lineage instead of skin color, because thinking all black people are the same is a handicap of both the left: who think that all "people of color" should be compensated for slavery, and the right: who love to say that US blacks were sold by "their own people." That's like claiming innocence for molesting a child because their parents sold it to you. (I know you know this:))
- Izikiel43 3y ago
  The rest of the developed world: why do you care so much about race? Just decide on household income
  - SAI_Peregrinus 3y ago
    That would run the risk of helping the poor. We don't like doing that here in the USA.
  - BobbyJo 3y ago
    > Just decide on household income Why not just decide on a test scores? Or just grades? Or just sports? Because there is no silver bullet measurement for "how deserving is this kid?" I'd venture to guess that if you asked 50 people how to measure someone's worth with regard to some goal you'd get 50 different answers.
    - Izikiel43 3y ago
      Test scores and income are enough, as they are objective measurements. Grades, as mentioned in another comment, are not consistent across different high schools, and they favor people with more resources. Sports, as in play in the university team, which demands high performance, is also fair, and probably doesn't demand a lot of places, as you can't have a sports team with hundreds of people.
      - bobthepanda 3y ago
        The issue is that also, generally speaking, anyone who was legally discriminated against probably lives in a jurisdiction performing poorly in test scores, since all schooling in the US are based on geographic districts funded by local property tax, and due to historic discrimination the formerly discriminated groups also live in areas with lower housing wealth. (A lot of people also moved out of districts with large minority populations when integration was mandated, taking their taxes and wealth with them.) Want to make a bunch of people very angry? Propose a metropolitan-area wide school district.
rd 3y ago
Anyone who's attended an Ivy League school can attest to the truth of this, and I've been vehemently disagreeing with every anti-AA comment in this thread, so that says something. Pretty much every Black student I see at school is African (immigrant)-American, not ADOS.
prepend 3y ago
I think ADOS stands for “American Descendants of Slavery” [0] as it is used in terms of US populations and, by definition, Americans aren’t African. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Descendants_of_Slavery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Descendants_of_Slaver...
- vacuity 3y ago
  You're technically right, but you and parent (GP?) seem to ultimately be referring to the same group of people. Apologies if you picked up on that; I can't tell.

earthboundkid 3y ago

Yeah, the point should always have been explicitly to be reparations for slavery/Jim Crow and the Native American genocide. But that was never really explicit, and there was a lot of mission drift over the last fifty years.

prpl 3y ago
and redlining, and other formal, informal, intentional and unintentional institutional (particularly governmental and financial) policies that limited people’s access to success based on their race.
- pessimizer 3y ago
  Anything explicitly discriminatory that the government could have done something about and chose not to. We need to forget about "microaggressions" and deal with the macroaggressions. It's typical that white liberals have embarked on the project of detecting subtle clues to the slightest slights and condemning people for them, when they should just treat historical race-based abuse claims like any other compensation claim. If you look at black people's family trees enough, you'll find plenty with specific inheritance claims against their white, slaver ancestors. Black people in America are the descendants of white rapists as well as imported slaves.
- earthboundkid 3y ago
  Yes. I was sort of lumping redlining in with Jim Crow, although I guess it's technically a distinct thing.
giardini 3y ago
Yes, and generations have passed, so that train has left the station, so to speak. Reparations are no longer an acceptable solution.
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  And yet the grandkids of those slave owners sure as hell still profit from their ill gotten gains
  - BobbyJo 3y ago
    > And yet the grandkids of those slave owners sure as hell still profit from their ill gotten gains. Source? I'd venture to guess most have reverted back to mean wealth given downward mobility rates [0] and the time since slavery ended. [0] https://www.chicagofed.org/research/mobility/intergenerational-economic-mobility https://www.chicagofed.org/research/mobility/intergeneration...
    - Alupis 3y ago
      Not to mention so very few families owned slaves back in the day. The way people talk, you'd think everyone had slaves - no, that was a very small minority of ultra-wealthy people. What about people who's families immigrated here post-slavery? Their tax money has to pay reparations too? Reparations is a non-starter. Any discussion or endeavor to push for reparations is a naked attempt to buy votes with lies.
QuarterReptile 3y ago
It's probably a reliable collective action problem. For example, the point of the 1965 Civil Rights Act was to help black men so their families could stay intact, but Howard Smith poison-pilled the whole thing by diverting it to women. For people who are in the military, I point this out in its internship form. The Skillbridge program was designed to facilitate internships for departing servicemen to address difficulties with veteran unemployment, but the spoils mostly go to officers with highly marketable skills, like submarine and cryptography officers. After all, those officers have each been practicing the art of finding and utilizing beneficial programs to their advantage for decades by that point in their lives; why wouldn't they use this one too?
ajsnigrutin 3y ago
But people who never owned slaves are now discriminated against so people who never were slaves get priviliges and get accepted to college.

pessimizer 3y ago

Rich ADOS should still benefit, though. We should be looking at lineage instead of skin color, because thinking all black people are the same is a handicap of both the left: who think that all "people of color" should be compensated for slavery, and the right: who love to say that US blacks were sold by "their own people." That's like claiming innocence for molesting a child because their parents sold it to you. (I know you know this:))

Izikiel43 3y ago
The rest of the developed world: why do you care so much about race? Just decide on household income
- SAI_Peregrinus 3y ago
  That would run the risk of helping the poor. We don't like doing that here in the USA.
- BobbyJo 3y ago
  > Just decide on household income Why not just decide on a test scores? Or just grades? Or just sports? Because there is no silver bullet measurement for "how deserving is this kid?" I'd venture to guess that if you asked 50 people how to measure someone's worth with regard to some goal you'd get 50 different answers.
  - Izikiel43 3y ago
    Test scores and income are enough, as they are objective measurements. Grades, as mentioned in another comment, are not consistent across different high schools, and they favor people with more resources. Sports, as in play in the university team, which demands high performance, is also fair, and probably doesn't demand a lot of places, as you can't have a sports team with hundreds of people.
    - bobthepanda 3y ago
      The issue is that also, generally speaking, anyone who was legally discriminated against probably lives in a jurisdiction performing poorly in test scores, since all schooling in the US are based on geographic districts funded by local property tax, and due to historic discrimination the formerly discriminated groups also live in areas with lower housing wealth. (A lot of people also moved out of districts with large minority populations when integration was mandated, taking their taxes and wealth with them.) Want to make a bunch of people very angry? Propose a metropolitan-area wide school district.

rd 3y ago

Anyone who's attended an Ivy League school can attest to the truth of this, and I've been vehemently disagreeing with every anti-AA comment in this thread, so that says something. Pretty much every Black student I see at school is African (immigrant)-American, not ADOS.

prepend 3y ago

I think ADOS stands for “American Descendants of Slavery” [0] as it is used in terms of US populations and, by definition, Americans aren’t African. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Descendants_of_Slavery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Descendants_of_Slaver...

vacuity 3y ago
You're technically right, but you and parent (GP?) seem to ultimately be referring to the same group of people. Apologies if you picked up on that; I can't tell.