6 ms·

> AA had a purpose and place at some moment in time. I think that moment has passed. Given how women and people with disabilities are still largely absent from

> AA had a purpose and place at some moment in time. I think that moment has passed. Given how women and people with disabilities are still largely absent from these discussions and who still face massive challenges in breaking into some industries - let alone leadership roles in those industries - I think AA still had a place. I think it's a mistake to say that absent AA we have a pure meritocracy. Instead the discrimination is simply based on criteria that we (US voters) no longer have a say in.

1234letshaveatw 3y ago
MIT's acceptance rate for women is more than double that of male applicants (11% v 5%)?
- falcolas 3y ago
  Those NBs are really making some inroads into MIT then, aren't they?
Maxion 3y ago
> Given how women and people with disabilities are still largely absent from these discussions and who still face massive challenges in breaking into some industries - let alone leadership roles in those industries - I think AA still had a place. Throwing out a philosophical question, is the end goal that every industry, workplace, and residential are to have a completely equal proportion of every group label that can be created?
- falcolas 3y ago
  > is the end goal that every industry, workplace, and residential are Well, if we follow the meritocratic ideology that everyone has the same opportunities available to them, it would be a natural conclusion. There is nothing that inherently causes a specific skin color or gender to have the ability to capitalize on an opportunity. But, not all things are equal, so IMO we need to give folks help in ensuring that the same opportunities are actually available to them. Provide help with ensuring that everyone has the same tools available to them to capitalize on those opportunities. Now then, WRT disabilities, this gap in opportunities and tools to capitalize on the opportunities is even greater. However, given that the one constant in life is that "you will become disabled, unless you die first", it makes no sense to leave those with disabilities behind.
  - EatingWithForks 3y ago
    Additionally WRT disabilities we actually need disabled people (i.e. pregnancy) in order for society to continue!
  - vxNsr 3y ago
    You’re saying you want to encourage 85 year olds with arthritis and glaucoma to keep working until they keel over? Why put them through that?
    - falcolas 3y ago
      No, I'm not saying that - and it's rather disingenuous to even infer that statement from my post. However, if an 85 year old with arthritis and glaucoma wants or needs to join the workforce, they should have the opportunity and the tools available to them. Many from the Baby Boomer generation are finding themselves in the "needs" category, for example.
  - parineum 3y ago
    > it would be a natural conclusion The counterfactual to that claim is nursing. Nursing is a very good job that has a relatively low barrier of entry yet the field is 88% female. The reason for that might be cultural but the reason is certainly self-selection, not discrimination. However, the difference may, in fact, be genetic (hormonal, more likely). Nursing is the mirror image of programming. If the gender compositions were reversed, the campaigns for STEM would, instead, be for healthcare. It may not be useful to look at outcomes to determine if opportunities are equal. It may be harder, but looking at opportunities to determine if opportunities are equal is really the only option.
    - falcolas 3y ago
      Ironically, when it comes to nursing, no small part of the gender difference is because of discrimination against male nurses by doctors, nurses, and patients. Until that's addressed, we can't even begin to assert that Nursing is inherently a field dominated by a single gender. Ditto teaching, writing, and so forth. "discrimination of men in nursing" returns some great resources for looking into this further.
- kaitai 3y ago
  Nah, I just want to have a fair chance in any industry I go into, rather than being measured on a different meter stick.
  - mrguyorama 3y ago
    Fun, that's something that black people want, and yet are denied, simply for being black.
- burkaman 3y ago
  Not every workplace and residential area, those are often too small to expect perfect statistical representation. But for every industry, yes I think that's the goal. "every group label that can be created" is quite broad, this obviously only applies to labels like gender, ethnicity, etc. that have no impact on ability.
  - nradov 3y ago
    Should professional sports have gender balance?
    - falcolas 3y ago
      Is there a reason they should not? Or at least have representation? With such a small subset of the population, statistically there wouldn't be an even mix. But IMO there should be at least some representation of every "protected" attribute. There's plenty of women with the physique and skills to fill roles in the NFL, for example. Not every player needs to be able to be a linebacker, after all.
      - goatlover 3y ago
        > There's plenty of women with the physique and skills to fill roles in the NFL, for example. Not every player needs to be able to be a linebacker, after all. Doubt it, outside of possibly kicker. Otherwise, you wouldn't see the biological differences in track and field performances between males and females, given how much football relies on physical attributes like size, strength and explosiveness. There could be a professional female league of course, like the WNBA for basketball. But if even tennis has to keep men and women separate to be fair, then there's little chance a physical sport like the NFL would be competitive for women alongside men.
        falcolas 3y ago
        > Otherwise, you wouldn't see the biological differences in track and field performances between males and females, given how much football relies on physical attributes like size, strength and explosiveness. I will grant you this. A top-level woman can not out-physical a top-level man. But, there's more to professional sports than just physicality. You brought up Tennis - but as proven in the various exhibition matches, women have not been cleanly swept as one might expect, and many have won over the years. This leads me to say that there's room even in the physically intensive sports for both genders, not to mention in the less physically intensive sports.
- balls187 3y ago
  Equal proportion? No. Equal opportunity to participate, yes. It starts with a basic belief—do you agree that US Society is disadvantageous for certain racial demographics?
BlueTemplar 3y ago
Sure, but we're talking here specifically a policy based on a racist concept, which goes on to normalize it, aren't we ?
- falcolas 3y ago
  The policy was based on several factors, of which race was one. And helping some groups of people - yes, sometimes the grouping is determined by race - is not discriminating against everyone else. In other words, lifting Asians, Blacks, Hawaiians, and Eskimos is not being racist towards "Whites" as is asserted elsewhere in this discussion. I use quotes because white is a pretty new categorization. It used to be Germans, English, Italians, Irish, etc.
  - athenaRising 3y ago
    Elite university admissions is zero sum. Harvard doesn't add a seat for race blind admissions for every seat given to affirmative action admits. Making it easier for group A to gain admission makes it harder for group B to gain admission.
brodouevencode 3y ago
How are women absent from these discussions? And what industries are you referring to?
- falcolas 3y ago
  The SC canned AA due to racism, even though AA also applied to gender and disability. So the value of AA for women (and men) and disabled people was completely disregarded. One potential industry to consider, especially considering the site we're on, is startup entrepreneurs - especially those who are able to get VC and Angel funding.
  - brodouevencode 3y ago
    My understanding is that they didn't can AA whole cloth - but that race cannot used as a consideration in admissions.

1234letshaveatw 3y ago

MIT's acceptance rate for women is more than double that of male applicants (11% v 5%)?

falcolas 3y ago
Those NBs are really making some inroads into MIT then, aren't they?

Maxion 3y ago

> Given how women and people with disabilities are still largely absent from these discussions and who still face massive challenges in breaking into some industries - let alone leadership roles in those industries - I think AA still had a place. Throwing out a philosophical question, is the end goal that every industry, workplace, and residential are to have a completely equal proportion of every group label that can be created?

falcolas 3y ago
> is the end goal that every industry, workplace, and residential are Well, if we follow the meritocratic ideology that everyone has the same opportunities available to them, it would be a natural conclusion. There is nothing that inherently causes a specific skin color or gender to have the ability to capitalize on an opportunity. But, not all things are equal, so IMO we need to give folks help in ensuring that the same opportunities are actually available to them. Provide help with ensuring that everyone has the same tools available to them to capitalize on those opportunities. Now then, WRT disabilities, this gap in opportunities and tools to capitalize on the opportunities is even greater. However, given that the one constant in life is that "you will become disabled, unless you die first", it makes no sense to leave those with disabilities behind.
- EatingWithForks 3y ago
  Additionally WRT disabilities we actually need disabled people (i.e. pregnancy) in order for society to continue!
- vxNsr 3y ago
  You’re saying you want to encourage 85 year olds with arthritis and glaucoma to keep working until they keel over? Why put them through that?
  - falcolas 3y ago
    No, I'm not saying that - and it's rather disingenuous to even infer that statement from my post. However, if an 85 year old with arthritis and glaucoma wants or needs to join the workforce, they should have the opportunity and the tools available to them. Many from the Baby Boomer generation are finding themselves in the "needs" category, for example.
- parineum 3y ago
  > it would be a natural conclusion The counterfactual to that claim is nursing. Nursing is a very good job that has a relatively low barrier of entry yet the field is 88% female. The reason for that might be cultural but the reason is certainly self-selection, not discrimination. However, the difference may, in fact, be genetic (hormonal, more likely). Nursing is the mirror image of programming. If the gender compositions were reversed, the campaigns for STEM would, instead, be for healthcare. It may not be useful to look at outcomes to determine if opportunities are equal. It may be harder, but looking at opportunities to determine if opportunities are equal is really the only option.
  - falcolas 3y ago
    Ironically, when it comes to nursing, no small part of the gender difference is because of discrimination against male nurses by doctors, nurses, and patients. Until that's addressed, we can't even begin to assert that Nursing is inherently a field dominated by a single gender. Ditto teaching, writing, and so forth. "discrimination of men in nursing" returns some great resources for looking into this further.
kaitai 3y ago
Nah, I just want to have a fair chance in any industry I go into, rather than being measured on a different meter stick.
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  Fun, that's something that black people want, and yet are denied, simply for being black.
burkaman 3y ago
Not every workplace and residential area, those are often too small to expect perfect statistical representation. But for every industry, yes I think that's the goal. "every group label that can be created" is quite broad, this obviously only applies to labels like gender, ethnicity, etc. that have no impact on ability.
- nradov 3y ago
  Should professional sports have gender balance?
  - falcolas 3y ago
    Is there a reason they should not? Or at least have representation? With such a small subset of the population, statistically there wouldn't be an even mix. But IMO there should be at least some representation of every "protected" attribute. There's plenty of women with the physique and skills to fill roles in the NFL, for example. Not every player needs to be able to be a linebacker, after all.
    - goatlover 3y ago
      > There's plenty of women with the physique and skills to fill roles in the NFL, for example. Not every player needs to be able to be a linebacker, after all. Doubt it, outside of possibly kicker. Otherwise, you wouldn't see the biological differences in track and field performances between males and females, given how much football relies on physical attributes like size, strength and explosiveness. There could be a professional female league of course, like the WNBA for basketball. But if even tennis has to keep men and women separate to be fair, then there's little chance a physical sport like the NFL would be competitive for women alongside men.
      - falcolas 3y ago
        > Otherwise, you wouldn't see the biological differences in track and field performances between males and females, given how much football relies on physical attributes like size, strength and explosiveness. I will grant you this. A top-level woman can not out-physical a top-level man. But, there's more to professional sports than just physicality. You brought up Tennis - but as proven in the various exhibition matches, women have not been cleanly swept as one might expect, and many have won over the years. This leads me to say that there's room even in the physically intensive sports for both genders, not to mention in the less physically intensive sports.
balls187 3y ago
Equal proportion? No. Equal opportunity to participate, yes. It starts with a basic belief—do you agree that US Society is disadvantageous for certain racial demographics?

BlueTemplar 3y ago

Sure, but we're talking here specifically a policy based on a racist concept, which goes on to normalize it, aren't we ?

falcolas 3y ago
The policy was based on several factors, of which race was one. And helping some groups of people - yes, sometimes the grouping is determined by race - is not discriminating against everyone else. In other words, lifting Asians, Blacks, Hawaiians, and Eskimos is not being racist towards "Whites" as is asserted elsewhere in this discussion. I use quotes because white is a pretty new categorization. It used to be Germans, English, Italians, Irish, etc.
- athenaRising 3y ago
  Elite university admissions is zero sum. Harvard doesn't add a seat for race blind admissions for every seat given to affirmative action admits. Making it easier for group A to gain admission makes it harder for group B to gain admission.

brodouevencode 3y ago

How are women absent from these discussions? And what industries are you referring to?

falcolas 3y ago
The SC canned AA due to racism, even though AA also applied to gender and disability. So the value of AA for women (and men) and disabled people was completely disregarded. One potential industry to consider, especially considering the site we're on, is startup entrepreneurs - especially those who are able to get VC and Angel funding.
- brodouevencode 3y ago
  My understanding is that they didn't can AA whole cloth - but that race cannot used as a consideration in admissions.