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If affirmative action is what enabled your father to become a doctor, then it almost certainly sounds like the success story that motivates the action. I don’t

If affirmative action is what enabled your father to become a doctor, then it almost certainly sounds like the success story that motivates the action. I don’t know percent of the time a similar story is required to justify the means, but it sounds like you should embrace the path that your family’s life has taken. The alternative, presumably, would be effectively unfair knowing what could and then did become.

brightball 3y ago
Something else that isn't really factored into most of these conversations is the level of gatekeeping around professions and schools where a much larger group of people can succeed or even flourish, yet never get the opportunity due to limited class sizes. Around the healthcare debate specifically, there were a lot of people who talked about the restrictive policies that artificially limit the supply of doctors as well as the policies that prevent the creation of more hospitals. When my dad was growing up, his father was a mechanic and he really just wanted to go be a mechanic to work with his dad...who told him that it wouldn't support 2 families. So instead...my dad became a dentist. Don't get me wrong, he's very smart (particularly with math) but how many people could be doctors? How many people could handle the curriculum at MIT, Harvard, Stanford, Georgia Tech, Vanderbilt, etc? My guess is that it's a whole lot more than are actually admitted. Further, is the curriculum at these schools that much better than everywhere else or is it more a factor of surrounding yourself with highly motivated peers that makes it better?
- euix 3y ago
  What's that saying? Something like: "It's not that Einstein was so brilliant, it's that so many more Einsteins spend their whole lives in the farm fields" and in between is there is a whole spectrum of talent vs opportunity and recognition going from brilliant and unknown to famous and undeserving.
  - joh6nn 3y ago
    "I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops." ― Stephen Jay Gould
- hospitalJail 3y ago
  Yeah if Physicians didn't have a monopoly on medicine, OP probably would have lived in a middle-class school district and not had every advantage of a 1-5%er. While AA is an issue, OP most benefited from the Physician cartel/AMA who lobbies/bribes their way to wealth for their members at the expense of the 99% of the population.
- bamfly 3y ago
  > Further, is the curriculum at these schools that much better than everywhere else or is it more a factor of surrounding yourself with highly motivated peers that makes it better? I've watched the full set of lectures for a few classes at top universities (Yale, MIT, that kind of thing) for a topic area in which I took a lot of classes at a very-cheap low-tier ex-normal-school state university that's completely unknown outside a ~150 mile radius, and only somewhat recognized within it. From what I could tell, the content, pace, and amount & sort of assigned work were all pretty similar. What differed? Two main things: 1) The guest lecturers—cheap state school, none, or unremarkable ones; the fancy schools, both more common to have them, and universally very impressive credentials, possibly someone you've heard of even if you don't really follow the topic, basically, their guests were "celebrities", at least within a field. 2) How engaged the students seemed to be—not at all, at the cheap state school; very, at the fancy schools. This is for undergrad. The ways they differ may not be the same in grad school.
  - jmoss20 3y ago
    Really? Maybe my (large, relatively well respected state school) lectures were uniquely bad. But I found MIT lectures to be leagues ahead of what we got. They covered more content, went deeper and were faster paced. The lecturers were more talented and engaging, and the problem sets were harder and more efficient. It really was night and day.
- nradov 3y ago
  The supply of physicians is artificially limited by Medicare funding for residency programs at teaching hospitals. This shortage will only get worse as the population ages. https://www.ama-assn.org/education/gme-funding/save-graduate-medical-education https://www.ama-assn.org/education/gme-funding/save-graduate...
  - exhilaration 3y ago
    The corporations running America's hospitals and health systems are fully aware of this problem and have lobbied state governments to give physician's assistants, nurse practitioners, and in some cases even pharmacists the same powers as doctors. Depending on your state, you'll find an NP or PA where you might have expected a doctor 10 years ago -- places like urgent care clinics and standalone ERs.
Auracle 3y ago
Well, there’s someone out there who is white or Asian that didn’t get to become a doctor. Are their kids as successful? Otherwise I agree with you. It’s in the past. We all have advantages and disadvantages, whether genetic or societal. There’s no reason to feel bad about something in the past you had no control over.
- hospitalJail 3y ago
  They don't get into medical school, they have a pre-med/biology degree. Make $40-60k/yr. Maybe 100k-200k if they are exceptionally talented vs... 250k-1M/yr The difference is being middle class to being upper class/upper-middle class. The school district differences are stark. So yes, these kind of things make a big difference. We really just need to remove power from the AMA/AGCME in this specific case. It hurts everyone except the Physician cartel members.
jlawson 3y ago
It's worth bearing in mind that if affirmative action helped his father become a doctor, it also prevented someone else's father from becoming a doctor. I wonder what that person could have achieved.
- hondo77 3y ago
  No, it means it prevented someone else's father from attending that school. There are others. That's why you apply to more than one.
  - Maxion 3y ago
    In the end, higher education is a scarce resource. Making it harder for group X to get in is absolutely discrimination, and does reduce the amount of people from group X who can attain higher education. Affirmative Action is talked about as positive discrimination, but it is still discrimination none-the-less.
    - dragonwriter 3y ago
      > Affirmative Action is talked about as positive discrimination, but it is still discrimination none-the-less. Every decision is discrimination. Basis and purpose is what matters.
      - Maxion 3y ago
        > Every decision is discrimination. Basis and purpose is what matters. That is true, which is why it is illegal in my country to discriminate based on things that you are. In my country, we value equality and believe that everyone should be treated fairly and without discrimination. Laws are in place to protect individuals from discrimination based on factors such as race, gender, religion, age, disability, and other protected characteristics. Discrimination based on who you are, such as your inherent traits or characteristics, is considered unjust and contrary to the principles of equality. The focus should be on a person's abilities, qualifications, and merits rather than factors that they have no control over.
ummonk 3y ago
Using parental income as well as parental education level in admissions would have helped GP's father just fine without any need for race-based affirmative action.
- commandlinefan 3y ago
  > parental income as well as parental education level in admissions But that leads to the same fundamental problem - somebody who was "unfortunate" enough to be born into decent circumstances but _who was actually more qualified_ than the diversity admit gets rejected.
  - kaitai 3y ago
    That's where things fall down, though. I've done some admissions work (I am not professionally in admissions or HR or anything, I was just an academic mathematician). A lot of "qualifications" are experiences you can buy. You can buy volunteer experiences here or there, whether as literally as flying your child to Africa to volunteer or as simply as not asking your kid to contribute to paying the rent and letting them tutor for no cash. You can buy your kid test prep classes -- yes, the poor kid can get an SAT prep book from the library but the rich kid can have a tutor take their child by the hand and cajole/harass/massage the kid through test prep. You must pay pay pay to have your kid participate in traveling soccer league, dance team, lacrosse, etc. Remember travel soccer and similar activities are a way of divesting from the public schools, ensuring that this money and coaching benefits kids whose parents can pay (the right kinds of kids, the kids you want your kid to marry). What else? The music lessons, the robotics contests, the school district that has a full suite of AP or IB classes rather than just a couple, but in which houses start at $425k... I sure as shit am buying qualifications for my kid, fully recognizing my role in participating in this flawed system. Kid's in robotics, language classes, gets to travel. We switched the kid's school to go to a school with higher standards. We teach the kid both reading (100 Easy Lessons...) and writing (workbooks from the non-US country with better public education) -- small expenses in $ but nevertheless expenses. I'm sure someone will happily tell me that the last part is just good morals on my part, or something, but you can't tell me that $100/day for a robotics summer camp is just good morals. I am buying that kid qualifications. And then someone will tell me that's not race-based, but look at the perpetuation of wealth disparity thru US history, from chattel slavery on through the robbery from the Freedmen's Bank to the riot that burned down Black Wall Street to the fact that Black servicemen couldn't get mortgage assistance or GI Bill college assistance after WW2. Follow the money.
CuriouslyC 3y ago
Do we need race based affirmative action though? Couldn't we have needs based discrimination? What makes a poor hispanic immigrant more deserving of a hand up than a poor ukranian immigrant?
- azinman2 3y ago
  I would say both are in need, personally, but affirmative action is looking at the reality that society will discriminate more against the Hispanic immigrant… so everything on the way to education and afterwords will reduce the chances of upward mobility and the self-confidence to withstand such discrimination compared to someone who is the dominant perceived race.
- nyolfen 3y ago
  people vote in racial/ethnic blocs, so spoils are doled out on those terms
- zo1 3y ago
  Because the issue goes way further back than college, yet they sit here at the college-level with little-dictators breathing down their necks about why is their college "so white". So how far back does one need to go, and how patient are we to see generational results? Honestly, I think this is 100% the responsibility of parents. They are the ones that need to break the generational cycle of whatever they're facing. Beyond that - as you say - needs based approaches to this. I don't understand why we as a society can't simply have "Oh you got more than 95% on your standardized test scores? 100% full scholarship to any college and any degree you wish without paying it back." That is how you fix a society if you ask me, by rewarding hard work and merit.
- foogazi 3y ago
  You could have that too
  - josephg 3y ago
    Not really. Selection is a zero sum game. If you add more Ukrainian refugees, you need to remove some other kids from the running. Needs based discrimination makes different choices than race based discrimination. More of one means less of the other.
1024core 3y ago
> If affirmative action is what enabled your father to become a doctor, then it almost certainly sounds like the success story that motivates the action. But that begs the question: should GP still get the benefit of AA if their parent took advantage of it and succeeded in life?
- azinman2 3y ago
  Did discrimination stop since then? Did the percentage of underrepresented minorities get balanced out since then? My guess is not, in which case it would be justified under the principles behind it. Having successful minorities that continue to produce success multi-generationally is a good thing. It brings people out of poverty, creates positive examples for people that look like someone who is struggling, creates more wealth in the targeted communities which can be spread around, etc.
  - 1024core 3y ago
    But then you end up with a "creamy layer" that always stays at the top. As The Boss said, "meet the new boss, same as the old boss"...
    - azinman2 3y ago
      Except if this creamy layer is a minority, society at large will still be trying to push them down. I think it’s important to have some cream to resist this and provide counter examples.
      - 1024core 3y ago
        But this does nothing for the 90% suffocating below the algal layer. They will always be stuck there, because the algae use up all the oxygen.
    - foogazi 3y ago
      > But then you end up with a "creamy layer" that always stays at the top. But not the same “cream” - that’s what the current cream is trying to preserve
yibg 3y ago
Not to diminish OP's accomplishments at all. His father benefited from AA which enabled him to level the playing field. Or perhaps more than level the playing field. Given that, is OP still starting from behind and need help to catch up? Or is OP now part of the privileged group and should take a few steps back?

brightball 3y ago

Something else that isn't really factored into most of these conversations is the level of gatekeeping around professions and schools where a much larger group of people can succeed or even flourish, yet never get the opportunity due to limited class sizes. Around the healthcare debate specifically, there were a lot of people who talked about the restrictive policies that artificially limit the supply of doctors as well as the policies that prevent the creation of more hospitals. When my dad was growing up, his father was a mechanic and he really just wanted to go be a mechanic to work with his dad...who told him that it wouldn't support 2 families. So instead...my dad became a dentist. Don't get me wrong, he's very smart (particularly with math) but how many people could be doctors? How many people could handle the curriculum at MIT, Harvard, Stanford, Georgia Tech, Vanderbilt, etc? My guess is that it's a whole lot more than are actually admitted. Further, is the curriculum at these schools that much better than everywhere else or is it more a factor of surrounding yourself with highly motivated peers that makes it better?

euix 3y ago
What's that saying? Something like: "It's not that Einstein was so brilliant, it's that so many more Einsteins spend their whole lives in the farm fields" and in between is there is a whole spectrum of talent vs opportunity and recognition going from brilliant and unknown to famous and undeserving.
- joh6nn 3y ago
  "I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops." ― Stephen Jay Gould
hospitalJail 3y ago
Yeah if Physicians didn't have a monopoly on medicine, OP probably would have lived in a middle-class school district and not had every advantage of a 1-5%er. While AA is an issue, OP most benefited from the Physician cartel/AMA who lobbies/bribes their way to wealth for their members at the expense of the 99% of the population.
bamfly 3y ago
> Further, is the curriculum at these schools that much better than everywhere else or is it more a factor of surrounding yourself with highly motivated peers that makes it better? I've watched the full set of lectures for a few classes at top universities (Yale, MIT, that kind of thing) for a topic area in which I took a lot of classes at a very-cheap low-tier ex-normal-school state university that's completely unknown outside a ~150 mile radius, and only somewhat recognized within it. From what I could tell, the content, pace, and amount & sort of assigned work were all pretty similar. What differed? Two main things: 1) The guest lecturers—cheap state school, none, or unremarkable ones; the fancy schools, both more common to have them, and universally very impressive credentials, possibly someone you've heard of even if you don't really follow the topic, basically, their guests were "celebrities", at least within a field. 2) How engaged the students seemed to be—not at all, at the cheap state school; very, at the fancy schools. This is for undergrad. The ways they differ may not be the same in grad school.
- jmoss20 3y ago
  Really? Maybe my (large, relatively well respected state school) lectures were uniquely bad. But I found MIT lectures to be leagues ahead of what we got. They covered more content, went deeper and were faster paced. The lecturers were more talented and engaging, and the problem sets were harder and more efficient. It really was night and day.
nradov 3y ago
The supply of physicians is artificially limited by Medicare funding for residency programs at teaching hospitals. This shortage will only get worse as the population ages. https://www.ama-assn.org/education/gme-funding/save-graduate-medical-education https://www.ama-assn.org/education/gme-funding/save-graduate...
- exhilaration 3y ago
  The corporations running America's hospitals and health systems are fully aware of this problem and have lobbied state governments to give physician's assistants, nurse practitioners, and in some cases even pharmacists the same powers as doctors. Depending on your state, you'll find an NP or PA where you might have expected a doctor 10 years ago -- places like urgent care clinics and standalone ERs.

Auracle 3y ago

Well, there’s someone out there who is white or Asian that didn’t get to become a doctor. Are their kids as successful? Otherwise I agree with you. It’s in the past. We all have advantages and disadvantages, whether genetic or societal. There’s no reason to feel bad about something in the past you had no control over.

hospitalJail 3y ago
They don't get into medical school, they have a pre-med/biology degree. Make $40-60k/yr. Maybe 100k-200k if they are exceptionally talented vs... 250k-1M/yr The difference is being middle class to being upper class/upper-middle class. The school district differences are stark. So yes, these kind of things make a big difference. We really just need to remove power from the AMA/AGCME in this specific case. It hurts everyone except the Physician cartel members.

jlawson 3y ago

It's worth bearing in mind that if affirmative action helped his father become a doctor, it also prevented someone else's father from becoming a doctor. I wonder what that person could have achieved.

hondo77 3y ago
No, it means it prevented someone else's father from attending that school. There are others. That's why you apply to more than one.
- Maxion 3y ago
  In the end, higher education is a scarce resource. Making it harder for group X to get in is absolutely discrimination, and does reduce the amount of people from group X who can attain higher education. Affirmative Action is talked about as positive discrimination, but it is still discrimination none-the-less.
  - dragonwriter 3y ago
    > Affirmative Action is talked about as positive discrimination, but it is still discrimination none-the-less. Every decision is discrimination. Basis and purpose is what matters.
    - Maxion 3y ago
      > Every decision is discrimination. Basis and purpose is what matters. That is true, which is why it is illegal in my country to discriminate based on things that you are. In my country, we value equality and believe that everyone should be treated fairly and without discrimination. Laws are in place to protect individuals from discrimination based on factors such as race, gender, religion, age, disability, and other protected characteristics. Discrimination based on who you are, such as your inherent traits or characteristics, is considered unjust and contrary to the principles of equality. The focus should be on a person's abilities, qualifications, and merits rather than factors that they have no control over.

ummonk 3y ago

Using parental income as well as parental education level in admissions would have helped GP's father just fine without any need for race-based affirmative action.

commandlinefan 3y ago
> parental income as well as parental education level in admissions But that leads to the same fundamental problem - somebody who was "unfortunate" enough to be born into decent circumstances but _who was actually more qualified_ than the diversity admit gets rejected.
- kaitai 3y ago
  That's where things fall down, though. I've done some admissions work (I am not professionally in admissions or HR or anything, I was just an academic mathematician). A lot of "qualifications" are experiences you can buy. You can buy volunteer experiences here or there, whether as literally as flying your child to Africa to volunteer or as simply as not asking your kid to contribute to paying the rent and letting them tutor for no cash. You can buy your kid test prep classes -- yes, the poor kid can get an SAT prep book from the library but the rich kid can have a tutor take their child by the hand and cajole/harass/massage the kid through test prep. You must pay pay pay to have your kid participate in traveling soccer league, dance team, lacrosse, etc. Remember travel soccer and similar activities are a way of divesting from the public schools, ensuring that this money and coaching benefits kids whose parents can pay (the right kinds of kids, the kids you want your kid to marry). What else? The music lessons, the robotics contests, the school district that has a full suite of AP or IB classes rather than just a couple, but in which houses start at $425k... I sure as shit am buying qualifications for my kid, fully recognizing my role in participating in this flawed system. Kid's in robotics, language classes, gets to travel. We switched the kid's school to go to a school with higher standards. We teach the kid both reading (100 Easy Lessons...) and writing (workbooks from the non-US country with better public education) -- small expenses in $ but nevertheless expenses. I'm sure someone will happily tell me that the last part is just good morals on my part, or something, but you can't tell me that $100/day for a robotics summer camp is just good morals. I am buying that kid qualifications. And then someone will tell me that's not race-based, but look at the perpetuation of wealth disparity thru US history, from chattel slavery on through the robbery from the Freedmen's Bank to the riot that burned down Black Wall Street to the fact that Black servicemen couldn't get mortgage assistance or GI Bill college assistance after WW2. Follow the money.

CuriouslyC 3y ago

Do we need race based affirmative action though? Couldn't we have needs based discrimination? What makes a poor hispanic immigrant more deserving of a hand up than a poor ukranian immigrant?

azinman2 3y ago
I would say both are in need, personally, but affirmative action is looking at the reality that society will discriminate more against the Hispanic immigrant… so everything on the way to education and afterwords will reduce the chances of upward mobility and the self-confidence to withstand such discrimination compared to someone who is the dominant perceived race.
nyolfen 3y ago
people vote in racial/ethnic blocs, so spoils are doled out on those terms
zo1 3y ago
Because the issue goes way further back than college, yet they sit here at the college-level with little-dictators breathing down their necks about why is their college "so white". So how far back does one need to go, and how patient are we to see generational results? Honestly, I think this is 100% the responsibility of parents. They are the ones that need to break the generational cycle of whatever they're facing. Beyond that - as you say - needs based approaches to this. I don't understand why we as a society can't simply have "Oh you got more than 95% on your standardized test scores? 100% full scholarship to any college and any degree you wish without paying it back." That is how you fix a society if you ask me, by rewarding hard work and merit.
foogazi 3y ago
You could have that too
- josephg 3y ago
  Not really. Selection is a zero sum game. If you add more Ukrainian refugees, you need to remove some other kids from the running. Needs based discrimination makes different choices than race based discrimination. More of one means less of the other.

1024core 3y ago

> If affirmative action is what enabled your father to become a doctor, then it almost certainly sounds like the success story that motivates the action. But that begs the question: should GP still get the benefit of AA if their parent took advantage of it and succeeded in life?

azinman2 3y ago
Did discrimination stop since then? Did the percentage of underrepresented minorities get balanced out since then? My guess is not, in which case it would be justified under the principles behind it. Having successful minorities that continue to produce success multi-generationally is a good thing. It brings people out of poverty, creates positive examples for people that look like someone who is struggling, creates more wealth in the targeted communities which can be spread around, etc.
- 1024core 3y ago
  But then you end up with a "creamy layer" that always stays at the top. As The Boss said, "meet the new boss, same as the old boss"...
  - azinman2 3y ago
    Except if this creamy layer is a minority, society at large will still be trying to push them down. I think it’s important to have some cream to resist this and provide counter examples.
    - 1024core 3y ago
      But this does nothing for the 90% suffocating below the algal layer. They will always be stuck there, because the algae use up all the oxygen.
  - foogazi 3y ago
    > But then you end up with a "creamy layer" that always stays at the top. But not the same “cream” - that’s what the current cream is trying to preserve

yibg 3y ago

Not to diminish OP's accomplishments at all. His father benefited from AA which enabled him to level the playing field. Or perhaps more than level the playing field. Given that, is OP still starting from behind and need help to catch up? Or is OP now part of the privileged group and should take a few steps back?