7 ms·

I figure it’s semi trucks that do almost all the road damage. We could just tax the trucks, but that would just get passed along in higher prices for everything

I figure it’s semi trucks that do almost all the road damage. We could just tax the trucks, but that would just get passed along in higher prices for everything. So might as well pay for road repair out of the general fund than have special taxes.

Kye 3y ago
Diesel is already taxed at a higher rate than gasoline.
- KennyBlanken 3y ago
  A diesel truck that has three times the pressure on the road and easily ten to fifteen times the total weight, while getting about 1/3rd the gas mileage of the average US passenger vehicle. Given the (unsupported) claim that a EV wears the road significantly more than a gasoline car for what amounts to shouldn't we expect that a vehicle exerting three times the pressure on the road should pay more per mile than 'just' 3x what you and I do in our gas passenger cars?
  - Kon-Peki 3y ago
    > Given the (unsupported) claim that a EV wears the road significantly more than a gasoline car Wear on the road is a function of weight. It’s really simple and uncontroversial. An EV generally weighs more than an ICE of equivalent size. Hopefully, the federal push to install tons of charging stations will usher in useful EVs with smaller batteries, lowering weight.
    - illiac786 3y ago
      I still think this is BS, considering trucks are causing 2500 times [0] more damage than gas cars and are certainly not bringing tax income proportionally to this. Why should EV then? [0] https://www.insidescience.org/news/how-much-damage-do-heavy-trucks-do-our-roads https://www.insidescience.org/news/how-much-damage-do-heavy-...
      - autoexecdotbat 3y ago
        This seems like a weird argument to make. We either pay collectively more for taxes for the roads we use, or collectively we pay WAY more for food, materials, and basically everything else if we tax trucks proportionally. Large trucks are carrying stuff, and the cost of that stuff is going to be directly associated with the cost of logistics. Yes, some states haven't figured out what that looks like, but I really don't think the right answer is to dump all that cost on truckers. I would rather pay more for my car's operational tax, increased EV tax or existing gas tax on ICE, than disproportionately affect the price of groceries for someone living paycheck to paycheck.
        one_level_deep 3y ago
        [dead]
        542354234235 3y ago
        Doesn’t this assume that the cost will not effect behavior? If trucking logistics becomes more expensive to properly account for the externalities, wouldn’t companies be more motivated to find more cost efficient methods. I’m sure there are plenty of items that could be shipped by rail, but aren’t because trucking is currently cheaper for the individual company, while the cost in road damage, pollution, greenhouse gasses, increased traffic, etc. are paid by everyone else. As for disproportionately affecting the poor, sales taxes (like on groceries and other goods) and excise taxes (like on gas) are exactly the regressive taxation systems that burden the very people living paycheck to paycheck. Shifting the tax burden from skimming off the top for the people spending all their income on daily necessities, towards companies paying the full cost of their chosen operations, would give the poor more buying power and allow market forces to find and utilize the most effective and efficient means to provide services instead of the cheapest means that are only cheap because they are subsidized by everyone else.
        illiac786 3y ago
        I think you misunderstood my argument. I'm not saying vehicles should be taxed proportionally to road usage, on this I don't have an opinion. I'm saying either you do this for all vehicles or none. You cannot say "EV vehicles pay proportionally but trucks not" without clearly being biased against EV (whatever the reasons).
    - ffgjgf1 3y ago
      The increase in damage due to the higher weight is insignificant if semis and other heavy vehicles are allowed on that road. Also you could just get a slightly smaller cars since EVs tend to be a bit more space efficient.
      - mensetmanusman 3y ago
        Semis aren't typically driving down suburbia or in left lanes on highways. Noting the increased road damage isn't an attack on EVs, it's a call to be smarter about infrastructure:.
  - parl_match 3y ago
    > Given the (unsupported) claim that a EV wears the road significantly more than a gasoline car This is an unambiguously, heavily supported claim. By states, car makers, the federal government, and third party analysis firms. It's incredibly uncontroversial. It's even got a name, and associated math: it's called the Fourth Power Law https://www.insidescience.org/news/how-much-damage-do-heavy-trucks-do-our-roads https://www.insidescience.org/news/how-much-damage-do-heavy-... > shouldn't we expect that a vehicle exerting three times the pressure on the road should pay more per mile than 'just' 3x what you and I do in our gas passenger cars Gas taxes make up a relatively small part of the cost of gas. If you run the numbers, you'll find that it's maybe closer to around 3.5-4x for most passenger EVs. At scale, that becomes a problem, but at the individual level, it's still a relatively small amount - and certainly less than the cost of gas.
    - tpxl 3y ago
      > This is an unambiguously, heavily supported claim. Your source claims no such thing. EVs may be heavier than equivalent ICE cars, but an electric Smart (the brand) is going to do less damage than a loaded Ford F150. Tax the weight, not a shitty proxy for weight.
      - bequanna 3y ago
        …and an F150 uses more fuel than a car. Your comparison is misleading. Compare an ICE car to an EV car, not the lightest EV to the heaviest ICE.
        tanjtanjtanj 3y ago
        That was exactly their point. You can't use 'EV' to mean heavier vehicle across the board.
    - throwbadubadu 3y ago
      > This is an unambiguously, heavily supported claim. It is pretty much insignificant increase on road wear vs what trucks put on it?
  - dghughes 3y ago
    I used to have a Dodge 2500 diesel it weighed 4,000kg. For comparison an EV Tesla Model X is 2,500kg. a non-EV Toyota Camry is 1,500kg. I still have the dents in my driveway pavement!
- mnw21cam 3y ago
  "Fuel duty is currently levied at a flat rate of 52.95p per litre for both petrol and diesel, while VAT at 20% is then charged on both the product price and the duty." https://racfoundation.org/data/percentage-uk-pump-price-which-is-tax-page https://racfoundation.org/data/percentage-uk-pump-price-whic...
  - mminer237 3y ago
    In the US, where Utah is located, diesel is taxed at a higher rate: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e9/Gasoline_Diesel_Taxes.webp https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e9/Gasoline...
    - Kye 3y ago
      I figured it was implied since we were talking about the US, but context has a way of collapsing in threaded conversations. Thanks for bringing it back around.
parl_match 3y ago
They do, but it's priced in. Many states have weigh stations as part of enforcing the existing taxation through diesel and licensing.
- Etrnl_President 3y ago
  They also have to go through 3x the registration effort, and do it in every state they drive in.
  - MisterTea 3y ago
    > and do it in every state they drive in. Not anymore. You just get an IFTA sticker and apportioned plates.
  - mrguyorama 3y ago
    No, they all just get registered in Maine which supposedly has pretty lax rules on Semis
    - Etrnl_President 3y ago
      I travel a lot, and see semis from most states, and commercial pickup haulers from all states. They say NJ, NY, KY, and UT, are especially penurious about additional registration and licensing.
thfuran 3y ago
No, externalities should be priced in where practical otherwise the market will be more inefficient, which in this case means the public footing an unnecessarily high road repair bill.
tomohawk 3y ago
You're right about semis. The most cost effective thing for keeping the roads better is weigh stations open all the time. However, EVs cause around 2x more damage to roads than non EVs. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/06/26/pothole-electric-cars-damage-roads-double-petrol-telegraph/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/06/26/pothole-electric... Wait til the semi EVs hit the road! EVs also have significantly higher particulate emissions due to increased tire wear.
- Gordonjcp 3y ago
  You know you linked to a fictional news site, right?
  - danielheath 3y ago
    Terrible source, yes, but it happens to be at least roughly on point in this instance; if my dim recall of the relevant engineering is correct, road damage grows quadratically to the pressure exerted on the road by tires, and EVs are typically nearly twice as heavy as ICE vehicles.
    - mschuster91 3y ago
      > and EVs are typically nearly twice as heavy as ICE vehicles. A 3-series BMW clocks in at 1700-2255 kg. A comparable Tesla Model Y clocks in at 1778-2003 kg (from empty to fully loaded).
      - danielheath 3y ago
        2255kg is the maximum load, and 1700kg is not at all an ordinary car weight; hatchbacks are often closer to 650 and my sedan is barely over 1000. You could argue that those aren’t luxury vehicles, but downmarket EVs need to be heavy too, because batteries do not match the energy density of petrol. Myself, I’m replacing nearly every car trip with biking where feasible (young kids make that challenging, admittedly, but the car doesn’t see a ton of use these days).
midasuni 3y ago
Tax the semi trucks and it makes it more economical to use rail freight. Hiding the externalities is somewhat communist.

Kye 3y ago

Diesel is already taxed at a higher rate than gasoline.

KennyBlanken 3y ago
A diesel truck that has three times the pressure on the road and easily ten to fifteen times the total weight, while getting about 1/3rd the gas mileage of the average US passenger vehicle. Given the (unsupported) claim that a EV wears the road significantly more than a gasoline car for what amounts to shouldn't we expect that a vehicle exerting three times the pressure on the road should pay more per mile than 'just' 3x what you and I do in our gas passenger cars?
- Kon-Peki 3y ago
  > Given the (unsupported) claim that a EV wears the road significantly more than a gasoline car Wear on the road is a function of weight. It’s really simple and uncontroversial. An EV generally weighs more than an ICE of equivalent size. Hopefully, the federal push to install tons of charging stations will usher in useful EVs with smaller batteries, lowering weight.
  - illiac786 3y ago
    I still think this is BS, considering trucks are causing 2500 times [0] more damage than gas cars and are certainly not bringing tax income proportionally to this. Why should EV then? [0] https://www.insidescience.org/news/how-much-damage-do-heavy-trucks-do-our-roads https://www.insidescience.org/news/how-much-damage-do-heavy-...
    - autoexecdotbat 3y ago
      This seems like a weird argument to make. We either pay collectively more for taxes for the roads we use, or collectively we pay WAY more for food, materials, and basically everything else if we tax trucks proportionally. Large trucks are carrying stuff, and the cost of that stuff is going to be directly associated with the cost of logistics. Yes, some states haven't figured out what that looks like, but I really don't think the right answer is to dump all that cost on truckers. I would rather pay more for my car's operational tax, increased EV tax or existing gas tax on ICE, than disproportionately affect the price of groceries for someone living paycheck to paycheck.
      - one_level_deep 3y ago
        [dead]
      - 542354234235 3y ago
        Doesn’t this assume that the cost will not effect behavior? If trucking logistics becomes more expensive to properly account for the externalities, wouldn’t companies be more motivated to find more cost efficient methods. I’m sure there are plenty of items that could be shipped by rail, but aren’t because trucking is currently cheaper for the individual company, while the cost in road damage, pollution, greenhouse gasses, increased traffic, etc. are paid by everyone else. As for disproportionately affecting the poor, sales taxes (like on groceries and other goods) and excise taxes (like on gas) are exactly the regressive taxation systems that burden the very people living paycheck to paycheck. Shifting the tax burden from skimming off the top for the people spending all their income on daily necessities, towards companies paying the full cost of their chosen operations, would give the poor more buying power and allow market forces to find and utilize the most effective and efficient means to provide services instead of the cheapest means that are only cheap because they are subsidized by everyone else.
      - illiac786 3y ago
        I think you misunderstood my argument. I'm not saying vehicles should be taxed proportionally to road usage, on this I don't have an opinion. I'm saying either you do this for all vehicles or none. You cannot say "EV vehicles pay proportionally but trucks not" without clearly being biased against EV (whatever the reasons).
  - ffgjgf1 3y ago
    The increase in damage due to the higher weight is insignificant if semis and other heavy vehicles are allowed on that road. Also you could just get a slightly smaller cars since EVs tend to be a bit more space efficient.
    - mensetmanusman 3y ago
      Semis aren't typically driving down suburbia or in left lanes on highways. Noting the increased road damage isn't an attack on EVs, it's a call to be smarter about infrastructure:.
- parl_match 3y ago
  > Given the (unsupported) claim that a EV wears the road significantly more than a gasoline car This is an unambiguously, heavily supported claim. By states, car makers, the federal government, and third party analysis firms. It's incredibly uncontroversial. It's even got a name, and associated math: it's called the Fourth Power Law https://www.insidescience.org/news/how-much-damage-do-heavy-trucks-do-our-roads https://www.insidescience.org/news/how-much-damage-do-heavy-... > shouldn't we expect that a vehicle exerting three times the pressure on the road should pay more per mile than 'just' 3x what you and I do in our gas passenger cars Gas taxes make up a relatively small part of the cost of gas. If you run the numbers, you'll find that it's maybe closer to around 3.5-4x for most passenger EVs. At scale, that becomes a problem, but at the individual level, it's still a relatively small amount - and certainly less than the cost of gas.
  - tpxl 3y ago
    > This is an unambiguously, heavily supported claim. Your source claims no such thing. EVs may be heavier than equivalent ICE cars, but an electric Smart (the brand) is going to do less damage than a loaded Ford F150. Tax the weight, not a shitty proxy for weight.
    - bequanna 3y ago
      …and an F150 uses more fuel than a car. Your comparison is misleading. Compare an ICE car to an EV car, not the lightest EV to the heaviest ICE.
      - tanjtanjtanj 3y ago
        That was exactly their point. You can't use 'EV' to mean heavier vehicle across the board.
  - throwbadubadu 3y ago
    > This is an unambiguously, heavily supported claim. It is pretty much insignificant increase on road wear vs what trucks put on it?
- dghughes 3y ago
  I used to have a Dodge 2500 diesel it weighed 4,000kg. For comparison an EV Tesla Model X is 2,500kg. a non-EV Toyota Camry is 1,500kg. I still have the dents in my driveway pavement!
mnw21cam 3y ago
"Fuel duty is currently levied at a flat rate of 52.95p per litre for both petrol and diesel, while VAT at 20% is then charged on both the product price and the duty." https://racfoundation.org/data/percentage-uk-pump-price-which-is-tax-page https://racfoundation.org/data/percentage-uk-pump-price-whic...
- mminer237 3y ago
  In the US, where Utah is located, diesel is taxed at a higher rate: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e9/Gasoline_Diesel_Taxes.webp https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e9/Gasoline...
  - Kye 3y ago
    I figured it was implied since we were talking about the US, but context has a way of collapsing in threaded conversations. Thanks for bringing it back around.

parl_match 3y ago

They do, but it's priced in. Many states have weigh stations as part of enforcing the existing taxation through diesel and licensing.

Etrnl_President 3y ago
They also have to go through 3x the registration effort, and do it in every state they drive in.
- MisterTea 3y ago
  > and do it in every state they drive in. Not anymore. You just get an IFTA sticker and apportioned plates.
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  No, they all just get registered in Maine which supposedly has pretty lax rules on Semis
  - Etrnl_President 3y ago
    I travel a lot, and see semis from most states, and commercial pickup haulers from all states. They say NJ, NY, KY, and UT, are especially penurious about additional registration and licensing.

thfuran 3y ago

No, externalities should be priced in where practical otherwise the market will be more inefficient, which in this case means the public footing an unnecessarily high road repair bill.

tomohawk 3y ago

You're right about semis. The most cost effective thing for keeping the roads better is weigh stations open all the time. However, EVs cause around 2x more damage to roads than non EVs. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/06/26/pothole-electric-cars-damage-roads-double-petrol-telegraph/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/06/26/pothole-electric... Wait til the semi EVs hit the road! EVs also have significantly higher particulate emissions due to increased tire wear.

Gordonjcp 3y ago
You know you linked to a fictional news site, right?
- danielheath 3y ago
  Terrible source, yes, but it happens to be at least roughly on point in this instance; if my dim recall of the relevant engineering is correct, road damage grows quadratically to the pressure exerted on the road by tires, and EVs are typically nearly twice as heavy as ICE vehicles.
  - mschuster91 3y ago
    > and EVs are typically nearly twice as heavy as ICE vehicles. A 3-series BMW clocks in at 1700-2255 kg. A comparable Tesla Model Y clocks in at 1778-2003 kg (from empty to fully loaded).
    - danielheath 3y ago
      2255kg is the maximum load, and 1700kg is not at all an ordinary car weight; hatchbacks are often closer to 650 and my sedan is barely over 1000. You could argue that those aren’t luxury vehicles, but downmarket EVs need to be heavy too, because batteries do not match the energy density of petrol. Myself, I’m replacing nearly every car trip with biking where feasible (young kids make that challenging, admittedly, but the car doesn’t see a ton of use these days).

midasuni 3y ago

Tax the semi trucks and it makes it more economical to use rail freight. Hiding the externalities is somewhat communist.