9 ms·

Larry Ellison: Oracle Database 1,000x Faster Than AWS Aurora

19 points by jerryjerryjerry 3y ago

downrightmike 3y ago
It's a trap!
flaminHotSpeedo 3y ago
[citation needed]
- redeeman 3y ago
  larry said it?
  - urda 3y ago
    Means nothing when you threaten academic researchers trying to benchmark your database. Larry's word is worth as much as you think it is: nothing.
crazysim 3y ago
Guess which one you can't benchmark and publish results on.
- GreedClarifies 3y ago
  It really is amazing. From Oracle's Service Agreement: 4.2 You may not, or cause or permit others to: perform or disclose any benchmark or performance tests of the Services, including the Oracle Programs, without Oracle’s prior written consent; It's nuts!
  - rodgerd 3y ago
    Sadly this is also true of a lot of database software; there are similar clauses for DB2 and SQL Server.
  - freeAgent 3y ago
    It certainly says something about your faith in your own product when you try to contractually prevent your customers from publishing performance information about their experience.
    - SoftTalker 3y ago
      Or that it's easy to contrive a benchmark to show anything you want, and they don't want the negative press.
      - olyjohn 3y ago
        Gonna be a lot of negative press when your shit sucks.
      - SteveNuts 3y ago
        Those results could be countered or refuted by Oracle themselves or other users. This is just shady.
      - reeaper 3y ago
        Then why doesn't every other piece of software in the world ban benchmarks? Is Oracle really leading the charge into the future?
        dragonwriter 3y ago
        > Then why doesn't every other piece of software in the world ban benchmarks? Lots of commercial software does. SQL Server does (or did in the past), Atlassian does, etc.
belval 3y ago
> We use this very fast RDMA network, and we start with that. And in our Gen2 Cloud, our entire network is a super-fast network, which means that most of the applications you run in the Oracle Cloud are going to be much faster than our competitors’ clouds because they don’t use that kind of network. So we have huge cost advantages. So instead of giving actual metrics, just say "very fast", "super-fast" and "much faster". Even for wall street that seems a bit shallow.
- placesalt 3y ago
  Funny to see this now, when thinking about a response he gave to the question 'what the hell is cloud computing', way back in ~2009: "it is the most nonsensical .. maybe I'm an idiot, it's really just complete gibberish..." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FacYAI6DY0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FacYAI6DY0
  - staunch 3y ago
    That's a very misleading set of partial quotes to assemble in that order... Ellison wasn't confused about any of the technical topics around cloud computing. He was complaining about the marketing trend at the time of slapping the "cloud computing" buzzword on all kinds of things that already existed. This is a thing that happens in the tech world a lot, and it is pretty annoying. A more modern example is the over-use of "serverless" buzzword.
    - rcme 3y ago
      No, he’s not complaining about the marketing. He’s basically saying cloud computing is nothing, just a redefinition of existing computing. He’s not complaining about the marketing. He’s saying that cloud computing is only marketing. Clearly he was wrong.
      - belfalas 3y ago
        Was he clearly wrong though? I listened through the whole clip and it seems like he was spot on to me. Steve Jobs made similar comments about cloud in the 90s - it’s really just mainframe 2.0.
mike_d 3y ago
My homemade database is 1,000x faster that Oracle in benchmarks. No you can't see it. It goes to a different school.
- deleted 3y ago
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- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- steve_mcdougall 3y ago
  [dead]
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
RandomBK 3y ago
They don't even bother trying to make this sound believable. You claim it's 1.5x-2x faster? Sure I might believe that despite your prohibition against benchmarks. 10x faster? You better show how your engineers pulled out that miracle. 1000x? You've either picked out a very weird edge case, used something in a way it's not meant to be used, or just made that up. Anyone who's done any serious benchmarking in a competitive space will instantly recognize that as a 'that cant be right' result.
- wredue 3y ago
  Python vs C/C++/Rust/Zig has even more startling performance differences. If you’re looking for benchmarks of the same classes of software, among techempower benchmarks, the fastest on the charts are often well over 1000x faster. Being 1000x slower than shit needs to be is, very literally, the default state of the vast majority of software today. I don’t even blink at 1000x claims cause that’s just the standard gains you get over popular software.
  - RandomBK 3y ago
    Perhaps, but Python vs C is hardly an apples-for-apples comparison. I could get 1000x differences benchmarking Aurora vs Redis for example. That's what I meant by "used in a way not meant to be used". Broadly speaking, there's plenty of public benchmarks indicating that a properly-configured Aurora is within the same order magnitude as a properly-configured RDS Postgres which is in the same ballpark as MySQL. That's an indication to me that Aurora isn't fundamentally broken in some way, making a 1000x claim quite extraordinary.
    - re-thc 3y ago
      > That's an indication to me that Aurora isn't fundamentally broken in some way, making a 1000x claim quite extraordinary. This isn't the open source MySQL being compared. MySQL Heatwave is an in-memory analytics cluster that works as a MySQL plugin. It's cloud only. In a way it's similar to AlloyDB from GCP, which has similar style claims (maybe not 1000x)
    - 3y ago
dragonwriter 3y ago
> we have customers moving from Amazon Aurora where they’re experiencing a 1,000x speedup versus Aurora. > So we’re a thousand times faster in query processing than Amazon’s version of MySQL No, “some customers are experiencing 1,000 speedup”, even if true, does not imply that, in general, your db offering is 1,000 faster.
- re-thc 3y ago
  > No, “some customers are experiencing 1,000 speedup”, even if true, does not imply that, in general, your db offering is 1,000 faster. When you put a giant memory based parallel query engine in front, it's definitely possible to be 1000x faster :). Heatwave adds a cluster of memory based columnar storage to MySQL. It's not your typical disk based query.
- roncesvalles 3y ago
  Also from a quick google search it doesn't seem HeatWave supports Serializable isolation so not all customers will be able to migrate from Aurora. It's not a 1:1 replacement in terms of functionality.
WatchDog 3y ago
Title is a bit misleading, since Oracle is the brand and well as the a specific database product, he is claiming that Oracles cloud hosted version of mysql is faster than AWS Aurora, not claiming that Oracle DB is faster than mysql.
- kelthan 3y ago
  That is _probably_ what he means, but there is nothing in the quotes in the article to confirm that is _actually_ the case. Also, the comment at the end of the article "... RDMA and other key drivers behind Oracle’s ascent to being the world’s hottest major cloud vendor" demonstrates that the person who wrote the article is not interested in asking hard questions. Oracle Cloud is quite a way from being the "hottest cloud vendor" by any meaningful metric, right now.
  - WatchDog 3y ago
    Its mentioned in the article a few times, and in a quote from Larry. > "We’ve announced a new database — a new version of MySQL with a fast query processor called HeatWave — and we have customers moving from Amazon Aurora where they’re experiencing a 1,000x speedup versus Aurora."
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
staunch 3y ago
It would be unsurprising to find that Oracle's MySQL cloud service is 1000x faster than AWS Aurora for some specific things, or maybe even entire classes of problems. It would be equally unsurprising if Aurora is 1000x faster for other classes of problems.
reeaper 3y ago
Congratulations on aggressively suing the poor souls who don't know better than to never use an Oracle product. Get lost
kman82 3y ago
What toteelal is this?
chasil 3y ago
Larry, you are getting spanked by Oceanbase. You haven't even bothered to compete since SPARC. When you're back in the game, let us know. Tencent 814,854,791 Oceanbase 707,351,007 Oracle 11g SPARC 30,249,688 https://www.tpc.org/tpcc/results/tpcc_results5.asp?print=false&orderby=tpm&sortby=desc https://www.tpc.org/tpcc/results/tpcc_results5.asp?print=fal...
filecounter 3y ago
This sounds more like an attack on the AWS hardware (Nitro?) . Does Nitro not have RDMA? I'm very curious if someone can discuss this. (Currently studying for AWS Solutions architect exam)
- deaddodo 3y ago
  High Performance Compute (HPC) instances on Elastic Compute (ECS) offer Remote Direct Memory Access (RDMA): https://aws.amazon.com/about-aws/whats-new/2020/11/efa-supports-nvidia-gpudirect-rdma/ https://aws.amazon.com/about-aws/whats-new/2020/11/efa-suppo...
TheChaplain 3y ago
Was a couple of years since I was in the backend industry, but then I heard plenty of people settle for less rather than "dealing with Oracles licensing bull**". Perhaps it's better now?

downrightmike 3y ago

It's a trap!

flaminHotSpeedo 3y ago

[citation needed]

redeeman 3y ago
larry said it?
- urda 3y ago
  Means nothing when you threaten academic researchers trying to benchmark your database. Larry's word is worth as much as you think it is: nothing.

crazysim 3y ago

Guess which one you can't benchmark and publish results on.

GreedClarifies 3y ago
It really is amazing. From Oracle's Service Agreement: 4.2 You may not, or cause or permit others to: perform or disclose any benchmark or performance tests of the Services, including the Oracle Programs, without Oracle’s prior written consent; It's nuts!
- rodgerd 3y ago
  Sadly this is also true of a lot of database software; there are similar clauses for DB2 and SQL Server.
- freeAgent 3y ago
  It certainly says something about your faith in your own product when you try to contractually prevent your customers from publishing performance information about their experience.
  - SoftTalker 3y ago
    Or that it's easy to contrive a benchmark to show anything you want, and they don't want the negative press.
    - olyjohn 3y ago
      Gonna be a lot of negative press when your shit sucks.
    - SteveNuts 3y ago
      Those results could be countered or refuted by Oracle themselves or other users. This is just shady.
    - reeaper 3y ago
      Then why doesn't every other piece of software in the world ban benchmarks? Is Oracle really leading the charge into the future?
      - dragonwriter 3y ago
        > Then why doesn't every other piece of software in the world ban benchmarks? Lots of commercial software does. SQL Server does (or did in the past), Atlassian does, etc.

belval 3y ago

> We use this very fast RDMA network, and we start with that. And in our Gen2 Cloud, our entire network is a super-fast network, which means that most of the applications you run in the Oracle Cloud are going to be much faster than our competitors’ clouds because they don’t use that kind of network. So we have huge cost advantages. So instead of giving actual metrics, just say "very fast", "super-fast" and "much faster". Even for wall street that seems a bit shallow.

placesalt 3y ago
Funny to see this now, when thinking about a response he gave to the question 'what the hell is cloud computing', way back in ~2009: "it is the most nonsensical .. maybe I'm an idiot, it's really just complete gibberish..." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FacYAI6DY0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FacYAI6DY0
- staunch 3y ago
  That's a very misleading set of partial quotes to assemble in that order... Ellison wasn't confused about any of the technical topics around cloud computing. He was complaining about the marketing trend at the time of slapping the "cloud computing" buzzword on all kinds of things that already existed. This is a thing that happens in the tech world a lot, and it is pretty annoying. A more modern example is the over-use of "serverless" buzzword.
  - rcme 3y ago
    No, he’s not complaining about the marketing. He’s basically saying cloud computing is nothing, just a redefinition of existing computing. He’s not complaining about the marketing. He’s saying that cloud computing is only marketing. Clearly he was wrong.
    - belfalas 3y ago
      Was he clearly wrong though? I listened through the whole clip and it seems like he was spot on to me. Steve Jobs made similar comments about cloud in the 90s - it’s really just mainframe 2.0.

mike_d 3y ago

My homemade database is 1,000x faster that Oracle in benchmarks. No you can't see it. It goes to a different school.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
steve_mcdougall 3y ago
[dead]

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

RandomBK 3y ago

They don't even bother trying to make this sound believable. You claim it's 1.5x-2x faster? Sure I might believe that despite your prohibition against benchmarks. 10x faster? You better show how your engineers pulled out that miracle. 1000x? You've either picked out a very weird edge case, used something in a way it's not meant to be used, or just made that up. Anyone who's done any serious benchmarking in a competitive space will instantly recognize that as a 'that cant be right' result.

wredue 3y ago
Python vs C/C++/Rust/Zig has even more startling performance differences. If you’re looking for benchmarks of the same classes of software, among techempower benchmarks, the fastest on the charts are often well over 1000x faster. Being 1000x slower than shit needs to be is, very literally, the default state of the vast majority of software today. I don’t even blink at 1000x claims cause that’s just the standard gains you get over popular software.
- RandomBK 3y ago
  Perhaps, but Python vs C is hardly an apples-for-apples comparison. I could get 1000x differences benchmarking Aurora vs Redis for example. That's what I meant by "used in a way not meant to be used". Broadly speaking, there's plenty of public benchmarks indicating that a properly-configured Aurora is within the same order magnitude as a properly-configured RDS Postgres which is in the same ballpark as MySQL. That's an indication to me that Aurora isn't fundamentally broken in some way, making a 1000x claim quite extraordinary.
  - re-thc 3y ago
    > That's an indication to me that Aurora isn't fundamentally broken in some way, making a 1000x claim quite extraordinary. This isn't the open source MySQL being compared. MySQL Heatwave is an in-memory analytics cluster that works as a MySQL plugin. It's cloud only. In a way it's similar to AlloyDB from GCP, which has similar style claims (maybe not 1000x)
  - 3y ago

dragonwriter 3y ago

> we have customers moving from Amazon Aurora where they’re experiencing a 1,000x speedup versus Aurora. > So we’re a thousand times faster in query processing than Amazon’s version of MySQL No, “some customers are experiencing 1,000 speedup”, even if true, does not imply that, in general, your db offering is 1,000 faster.

re-thc 3y ago
> No, “some customers are experiencing 1,000 speedup”, even if true, does not imply that, in general, your db offering is 1,000 faster. When you put a giant memory based parallel query engine in front, it's definitely possible to be 1000x faster :). Heatwave adds a cluster of memory based columnar storage to MySQL. It's not your typical disk based query.
roncesvalles 3y ago
Also from a quick google search it doesn't seem HeatWave supports Serializable isolation so not all customers will be able to migrate from Aurora. It's not a 1:1 replacement in terms of functionality.

WatchDog 3y ago

Title is a bit misleading, since Oracle is the brand and well as the a specific database product, he is claiming that Oracles cloud hosted version of mysql is faster than AWS Aurora, not claiming that Oracle DB is faster than mysql.

kelthan 3y ago
That is _probably_ what he means, but there is nothing in the quotes in the article to confirm that is _actually_ the case. Also, the comment at the end of the article "... RDMA and other key drivers behind Oracle’s ascent to being the world’s hottest major cloud vendor" demonstrates that the person who wrote the article is not interested in asking hard questions. Oracle Cloud is quite a way from being the "hottest cloud vendor" by any meaningful metric, right now.
- WatchDog 3y ago
  Its mentioned in the article a few times, and in a quote from Larry. > "We’ve announced a new database — a new version of MySQL with a fast query processor called HeatWave — and we have customers moving from Amazon Aurora where they’re experiencing a 1,000x speedup versus Aurora."

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

staunch 3y ago

It would be unsurprising to find that Oracle's MySQL cloud service is 1000x faster than AWS Aurora for some specific things, or maybe even entire classes of problems. It would be equally unsurprising if Aurora is 1000x faster for other classes of problems.

reeaper 3y ago

Congratulations on aggressively suing the poor souls who don't know better than to never use an Oracle product. Get lost

kman82 3y ago

What toteelal is this?

chasil 3y ago

Larry, you are getting spanked by Oceanbase. You haven't even bothered to compete since SPARC. When you're back in the game, let us know. Tencent 814,854,791 Oceanbase 707,351,007 Oracle 11g SPARC 30,249,688 https://www.tpc.org/tpcc/results/tpcc_results5.asp?print=false&orderby=tpm&sortby=desc https://www.tpc.org/tpcc/results/tpcc_results5.asp?print=fal...

filecounter 3y ago

This sounds more like an attack on the AWS hardware (Nitro?) . Does Nitro not have RDMA? I'm very curious if someone can discuss this. (Currently studying for AWS Solutions architect exam)

deaddodo 3y ago
High Performance Compute (HPC) instances on Elastic Compute (ECS) offer Remote Direct Memory Access (RDMA): https://aws.amazon.com/about-aws/whats-new/2020/11/efa-supports-nvidia-gpudirect-rdma/ https://aws.amazon.com/about-aws/whats-new/2020/11/efa-suppo...

TheChaplain 3y ago

Was a couple of years since I was in the backend industry, but then I heard plenty of people settle for less rather than "dealing with Oracles licensing bull**". Perhaps it's better now?