4 ms·

Does anyone else feel that the whole entire-canvas-is-editable-by-default approach of Notion and similar tools is an extremely annoying antipattern? I want to

Does anyone else feel that the whole entire-canvas-is-editable-by-default approach of Notion and similar tools is an extremely annoying antipattern? I want to be able to open a document in read-only mode. Otherwise, while just navigating through pages or reading content, it's far too easy to accidentally add text to a block by pressing anything on the keyboard, or move things around with an accidental drag of the mouse. I've been reprimanded several times for errant edits to company wiki pages because of this...

16bitvoid 3y ago
I think you can lock a page to prevent editing on Notion, but I'm not sure if that's something only the owner of the document can do. A dedicated read-only mode would be useful though.
mmh0000 3y ago
If the company doesn’t want you editing pages, they should be locking them down. If the pages are left open I feel that it is safe to assume the right to edit. And I’d argue that until my boss absolutely hated me. https://www.notion.so/help/sharing-and-permissions https://www.notion.so/help/sharing-and-permissions
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- lopkeny12ko 3y ago
  It's totally reasonable for an FAQ page that is editable by all developers and intended for everyone to contribute troubleshooting tips. The problem occurs when someone accidentally drags things around, or has the wrong window open when typing in text and you end up with "ls" and "exit" scattered randomly throughout the doc.
  - philsnow 3y ago
    I have never once in my life intentionally dragged text. Unintentionally several times, and each time wondering what kind of deranged person designed this misfeature. .. okay it’s mostly a misfeature because it’s the exact same input gesture as selecting text, but you have to remember that there is text selected / ensure that no text has been inadvertently selected. Another case where making the user remember things can cause a problem is hybrid cars, where the driver needs to know the state of the hybrid battery because the responsiveness of the brakes and acceleration change depending on it.
  - FalconSensei 3y ago
    > has the wrong window open when typing in text and you end up with "ls" and "exit" scattered randomly throughout the doc. the same thing would happen in word/google docs/etc
- cabalamat 3y ago
  > If the pages are left open I feel that it is safe to assume the right to edit Yes, but not accidentally. You should press an [Edit] button which would take you to another URL to edit the page.
madeofpalk 3y ago
First time I had a job that used Confluence as an idle tick i would just tick-untick-tick-untick the checkboxes on documents. I never realised that a) i was actually editing and saving the page, and b) it would send an email to the owner for every single tick/untick edit.
- maxloh 3y ago
  That surprised me when using GitHub too.
- jeron 3y ago
  that's hilarious, how did you eventually find out?
  - seanthemon 3y ago
    He ticked off the wrong people.
    - tough 3y ago
      ROFL
    - kindawinda 3y ago
      LMAO
- kjs3 3y ago
  I, too, have earned the hate of a few dev teams not understanding the Confluence view of the world. I have bought numerous beers in hopes of patching things over.
PurpleRamen 3y ago
No, it's an editor, not a immutable website for consumption. The whole goal of them is that you can switch fast between editing and the rendered result. In that sense they are like word processors. But yes, adding an option for locking the document can be important, and usually they have them. I mean it's not even hard to implement. But probably not something people are mindful about.
- lopkeny12ko 3y ago
  I mean, an immutable website for consumption is exactly what most people want. I want to differentiate content editing and content viewing much the same way in software development you edit source code which is then built into an immutable read-only artifact. Is it really such a foreign concept that people want a dedicated editing-focused mode whose source is published into the final wiki page for viewing? Is this not how basically all tools worked pre-Notion?
  - PurpleRamen 3y ago
    > I mean, an immutable website for consumption is exactly what most people want. Do they? Then export your documents to an immutable website. That's why those options exist. Personally I don't want that. I want to edit my content fast and the hybrid-solution doesn't bother me. So we are talking here about a conflict of interest, not an anti-pattern. And solutions for this already exist, maybe they should just advertised more prominently? > I want to differentiate content editing and content viewing much the same way in software development you edit source code which is then built into an immutable read-only artifact. I don't read the compiled artifact, I use it, which is very different from what we are talking here. A more equal example would be reading code on github or reading in a code editor.
  - jitl 3y ago
    Many tools that predate Notion open pages in "edit" mode: Microsoft Word, Apple Pages, Google Docs, Etherpad, Dropbox Paper, TextEdit, Nodepad.exe... We want to serve people who've used apps like those with their preferred writing experience.
plagiarist 3y ago
I find it irritating at times but nowhere near as infuriating as traveling to the top of a large block to click edit. I'd happily accept a less permeable barrier into edit mode (like ctrl-click?) but it needs to still support the instant edits for these apps to be tools primarily instead of document readers.
- worldsayshi 3y ago
  I'm sure there's a very nice UX convention for this waiting to be discovered through some creative prototyping and user testing. Spitballing bad ideas somewhere in the ball park of what could be prototyped: - Editing locked by default and locked whenever a clear non editing action occurs. Editing unlocked by right swipe, double click, enter key or something similar. Editing unlocked by looking at the text cursor.
kitsunesoba 3y ago
Absolutely. When I’m using Notion I feel like I have to be hyperaware of how I interact with the page as to not unintentionally edit something. A little editor/reader toggle button would go a long way here.
jiggywiggy 3y ago
Most developers think in abstract terms all the time. We can easily see the variables take shape and create our intended reality. But for a lot of people that never do that, that's hard, the more closer edit mode is to reality to easier it is to understand what it will look like and the less brainpower it takes the creator. But yeah in some cases with notion the difference between read and edit mode is not significantly indicated.
majormajor 3y ago
I agree, I think for shared docs easy edit-ability/instant-autosave is an antipattern that encourages less-thoughtful editing and hurts their purpose as a long-term store of knowledge. The places I've worked that have really leaned into that part of Notion (vs just like Notion as a nativeish-app/snappier Wiki) were all overly ADHD in their approach to planning and work in general, too. There's a certain sort of worker that really leans into that as their version of "easy async collaboration" but is actually just putting the burden on the recipients to make sense of the author's journey and thought process, instead of putting more effort into more-infrequent-but-more-curated updates.
kjs3 3y ago
I confess to having never used Notion, but if you want a horrorshow experience with "everyone can edit by default", check out Mural some time.

16bitvoid 3y ago

I think you can lock a page to prevent editing on Notion, but I'm not sure if that's something only the owner of the document can do. A dedicated read-only mode would be useful though.

mmh0000 3y ago

If the company doesn’t want you editing pages, they should be locking them down. If the pages are left open I feel that it is safe to assume the right to edit. And I’d argue that until my boss absolutely hated me. https://www.notion.so/help/sharing-and-permissions https://www.notion.so/help/sharing-and-permissions

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
lopkeny12ko 3y ago
It's totally reasonable for an FAQ page that is editable by all developers and intended for everyone to contribute troubleshooting tips. The problem occurs when someone accidentally drags things around, or has the wrong window open when typing in text and you end up with "ls" and "exit" scattered randomly throughout the doc.
- philsnow 3y ago
  I have never once in my life intentionally dragged text. Unintentionally several times, and each time wondering what kind of deranged person designed this misfeature. .. okay it’s mostly a misfeature because it’s the exact same input gesture as selecting text, but you have to remember that there is text selected / ensure that no text has been inadvertently selected. Another case where making the user remember things can cause a problem is hybrid cars, where the driver needs to know the state of the hybrid battery because the responsiveness of the brakes and acceleration change depending on it.
- FalconSensei 3y ago
  > has the wrong window open when typing in text and you end up with "ls" and "exit" scattered randomly throughout the doc. the same thing would happen in word/google docs/etc
cabalamat 3y ago
> If the pages are left open I feel that it is safe to assume the right to edit Yes, but not accidentally. You should press an [Edit] button which would take you to another URL to edit the page.

madeofpalk 3y ago

First time I had a job that used Confluence as an idle tick i would just tick-untick-tick-untick the checkboxes on documents. I never realised that a) i was actually editing and saving the page, and b) it would send an email to the owner for every single tick/untick edit.

maxloh 3y ago
That surprised me when using GitHub too.
jeron 3y ago
that's hilarious, how did you eventually find out?
- seanthemon 3y ago
  He ticked off the wrong people.
  - tough 3y ago
    ROFL
  - kindawinda 3y ago
    LMAO
kjs3 3y ago
I, too, have earned the hate of a few dev teams not understanding the Confluence view of the world. I have bought numerous beers in hopes of patching things over.

PurpleRamen 3y ago

No, it's an editor, not a immutable website for consumption. The whole goal of them is that you can switch fast between editing and the rendered result. In that sense they are like word processors. But yes, adding an option for locking the document can be important, and usually they have them. I mean it's not even hard to implement. But probably not something people are mindful about.

lopkeny12ko 3y ago
I mean, an immutable website for consumption is exactly what most people want. I want to differentiate content editing and content viewing much the same way in software development you edit source code which is then built into an immutable read-only artifact. Is it really such a foreign concept that people want a dedicated editing-focused mode whose source is published into the final wiki page for viewing? Is this not how basically all tools worked pre-Notion?
- PurpleRamen 3y ago
  > I mean, an immutable website for consumption is exactly what most people want. Do they? Then export your documents to an immutable website. That's why those options exist. Personally I don't want that. I want to edit my content fast and the hybrid-solution doesn't bother me. So we are talking here about a conflict of interest, not an anti-pattern. And solutions for this already exist, maybe they should just advertised more prominently? > I want to differentiate content editing and content viewing much the same way in software development you edit source code which is then built into an immutable read-only artifact. I don't read the compiled artifact, I use it, which is very different from what we are talking here. A more equal example would be reading code on github or reading in a code editor.
- jitl 3y ago
  Many tools that predate Notion open pages in "edit" mode: Microsoft Word, Apple Pages, Google Docs, Etherpad, Dropbox Paper, TextEdit, Nodepad.exe... We want to serve people who've used apps like those with their preferred writing experience.

plagiarist 3y ago

I find it irritating at times but nowhere near as infuriating as traveling to the top of a large block to click edit. I'd happily accept a less permeable barrier into edit mode (like ctrl-click?) but it needs to still support the instant edits for these apps to be tools primarily instead of document readers.

worldsayshi 3y ago
I'm sure there's a very nice UX convention for this waiting to be discovered through some creative prototyping and user testing. Spitballing bad ideas somewhere in the ball park of what could be prototyped: - Editing locked by default and locked whenever a clear non editing action occurs. Editing unlocked by right swipe, double click, enter key or something similar. Editing unlocked by looking at the text cursor.

kitsunesoba 3y ago

Absolutely. When I’m using Notion I feel like I have to be hyperaware of how I interact with the page as to not unintentionally edit something. A little editor/reader toggle button would go a long way here.

jiggywiggy 3y ago

Most developers think in abstract terms all the time. We can easily see the variables take shape and create our intended reality. But for a lot of people that never do that, that's hard, the more closer edit mode is to reality to easier it is to understand what it will look like and the less brainpower it takes the creator. But yeah in some cases with notion the difference between read and edit mode is not significantly indicated.

majormajor 3y ago

I agree, I think for shared docs easy edit-ability/instant-autosave is an antipattern that encourages less-thoughtful editing and hurts their purpose as a long-term store of knowledge. The places I've worked that have really leaned into that part of Notion (vs just like Notion as a nativeish-app/snappier Wiki) were all overly ADHD in their approach to planning and work in general, too. There's a certain sort of worker that really leans into that as their version of "easy async collaboration" but is actually just putting the burden on the recipients to make sense of the author's journey and thought process, instead of putting more effort into more-infrequent-but-more-curated updates.

kjs3 3y ago

I confess to having never used Notion, but if you want a horrorshow experience with "everyone can edit by default", check out Mural some time.