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> And what would stop the companies from using consultants or third parties to implement these backdoors? Nothing. Contract with the unions could force the com

> And what would stop the companies from using consultants or third parties to implement these backdoors? Nothing. Contract with the unions could force the companies to not do so. The employees of tech companies have a lot of power that they’re not using right now.

hellojesus 3y ago
Part of unionizing is voluntarily giving up your individual bargaining power. Why would anyone that's one standard deviation or more above the mean developer trade that away?
- camgunz 3y ago
  Because they get laid off in random staff cuts just like everyone else. When tech companies band together against tech workers, it doesn't matter how many Xs of an engineer you are.
  - hellojesus 3y ago
    You can always get another job, and being good at what you do should increase the probability of getting a new one. Everyone knows about business cycles. It's worth saving for the unexpected layoffs so that you can make it through. To reiterate, knowing I could not have a job tomorrow every single day is not enough justification for giving up my ability to self represent. Plus, I don't have to pay people for the privlidge of losing my independence.
    - camgunz 3y ago
      You can probably get another job yeah. Can you get another job with the same total comp and benefits? A lot of people are finding that that's not the case, you might preserve your salary but give up stock options and remote work, etc. Also, it's just a pain in the ass. I think this reasoning is pretty labored. Sure there's some small percentage of engineers who are eminently employable and don't care to unionize. It benefits everyone else though, and even those "elite" engineers benefit from unionization, as unions have to represent everyone. I feel like there are tinges of, "I don't want to pay union dues if I'm not in the union" or "everyone thinks they'll be rich someday / are an elite engineer so they don't want to tax the wealthy / unionize", but idk, these are old, bad arguments.
- Eumenes 3y ago
  Exactly. I, personally, aim higher than the standard deviation and am compensated well for it. I would not give that up.
  - gochi 3y ago
    I wonder if you'll reflect back on this comment when ageism comes knocking.
    - Eumenes 3y ago
      I'll be long retired before "ageism" even becomes close to a concern ;)
Eumenes 3y ago
I don't think a union would prevent big tech legal teams from finding loopholes to circumvent said contract. They could use some entity in another nation or state that has more lax laws. And if the government wants Google or Meta's infrastructure to use as a spying apparatus, they get their way (see: NSA). Seems like a game of whack a mole that a slow moving organization like a union would lose. A handful of rogue leakers or vigilante whistleblowers, backed by some non-profit defense legal fund (perhaps funded by payroll deductions, like dues), could have an outsized impact on the future of security/privacy.

hellojesus 3y ago

Part of unionizing is voluntarily giving up your individual bargaining power. Why would anyone that's one standard deviation or more above the mean developer trade that away?

camgunz 3y ago
Because they get laid off in random staff cuts just like everyone else. When tech companies band together against tech workers, it doesn't matter how many Xs of an engineer you are.
- hellojesus 3y ago
  You can always get another job, and being good at what you do should increase the probability of getting a new one. Everyone knows about business cycles. It's worth saving for the unexpected layoffs so that you can make it through. To reiterate, knowing I could not have a job tomorrow every single day is not enough justification for giving up my ability to self represent. Plus, I don't have to pay people for the privlidge of losing my independence.
  - camgunz 3y ago
    You can probably get another job yeah. Can you get another job with the same total comp and benefits? A lot of people are finding that that's not the case, you might preserve your salary but give up stock options and remote work, etc. Also, it's just a pain in the ass. I think this reasoning is pretty labored. Sure there's some small percentage of engineers who are eminently employable and don't care to unionize. It benefits everyone else though, and even those "elite" engineers benefit from unionization, as unions have to represent everyone. I feel like there are tinges of, "I don't want to pay union dues if I'm not in the union" or "everyone thinks they'll be rich someday / are an elite engineer so they don't want to tax the wealthy / unionize", but idk, these are old, bad arguments.
Eumenes 3y ago
Exactly. I, personally, aim higher than the standard deviation and am compensated well for it. I would not give that up.
- gochi 3y ago
  I wonder if you'll reflect back on this comment when ageism comes knocking.
  - Eumenes 3y ago
    I'll be long retired before "ageism" even becomes close to a concern ;)

Eumenes 3y ago

I don't think a union would prevent big tech legal teams from finding loopholes to circumvent said contract. They could use some entity in another nation or state that has more lax laws. And if the government wants Google or Meta's infrastructure to use as a spying apparatus, they get their way (see: NSA). Seems like a game of whack a mole that a slow moving organization like a union would lose. A handful of rogue leakers or vigilante whistleblowers, backed by some non-profit defense legal fund (perhaps funded by payroll deductions, like dues), could have an outsized impact on the future of security/privacy.