28 ms·

Plastics are poisoning us

443 points by fortran77 3y ago

black_13 3y ago
[dead]
buzzert 3y ago
Really surprised not to see a single mention of masks in this article. N95 and surgical masks are made from an energy intensive process that spin microplastics into a woven structure. When wearing these masks, you're subjected to a small amount of inhaled microplastics. Normally this isn't a problem, since people used to wear these masks just for medical procedures, or for certain construction jobs that emit high amounts of particles, but at my office now I see people wearing these things for 8+ hours a day! And at the end of the day, hundreds upon hundreds of these masks are just thrown in the landfill (or in SF, just on the street). This is the worst case of misuse/overuse of plastics by far, and nobody seems to talk about it. Please, if you insist on continuing to wear a mask, switch to a reusable one.
tmikaeld 3y ago
Yes? At this point, it's hopeless - plastics are expanding like never before, Shell expanding several new enormous factories right in the US. No politician is interested in stopping it either, since the lobbying industry for plastics is also going strong. The only legislation passed in modern time is against single-use plastics, which is just a tiny drop in the ocean (!!) of plastic. And also, the clothes industry is massive and went from an already cheap source like cotton, to plastic. Consider the forces here that push plastics - influensers, marketers and huge brands. It's hard to find consumers or manufacturers willing to pay several times more for the better alternative.. EDIT: In the end, it's up to consumers. Personally, I'm using glass, it's infinitely re-usable. I use hemp clothes, it lasts many times longer and I don't own a car, I bike everywhere.
- tfourb 3y ago
  Not sure how the "it's to late to do anything about it" is supposed to contribute to this debate. It's also factually wrong. The production of new plastics could be drastically reduced through regulation of both the production itself and its use cases. Most food and drink containers could be made from non-plastic materials. I've built a house that uses maybe 5% of the plastic that is common in construction where I live. You could pull out the cables, window seals, roof cover and switches and basically leave the rest of the house to compost. The government could mandate that producers of plastics must offer a convenient and financially attractive way to hand in old plastics. There are a thousand ways to drastically improve this problem, fatalism only contributes to it.
  - iforgotpassword 3y ago
    > The government could mandate that producers of plastics must offer a convenient and financially attractive way to hand in old plastics. We already have this. It's called trash can. How would letting the producers handle this instead would change anything? The plastic was still produced and will end up in a landfill or the ocean.
    - __MatrixMan__ 3y ago
      I couldn't speak for other brands, but Brother will give you a free shipping label so you can send your empty toner cartridge back to them. It's not charity, they want it back because they can reuse most of it in ways that a melt-and-remold style recycling scheme can't. I see no reason the same couldn't be true of most packaging, in addition to things like TV's. If you built it, you ought to be uniquely positioned to recycle it. In addition to trying to get consumers to change their habits we should also be fining/billing manufacturers when their stuff end up as litter or in a landfill. If they don't like it, they can redesign their processes to avoid it.
      - mrob 3y ago
        I think we should be subsidizing plastics that end up in landfill. It's the best place for it, as it's both safely contained and impractical to take out again, making it a reliable form of carbon sequestration.
- kossTKR 3y ago
  "In the end, it's up to consumers." No it's not. Please don't spread sinister pro industry falsities like this. Nothing has ever changed because of some symbolic drops in the ocean. Regulation and collective action is the only thing that has ever worked, all personal lifestyle choices are romanticizations about personal effects that the industry loves because it has pushed responsibility to consumers, like much of the astroturfed recycling movement that is theatre hiding actual policy making. If people want to do anything that makes any kind of actual difference they should get into anything that's anti the big industry lobbies or collective action and see through the jungle of astroturfing and "lifestyle signaling" greenwashing noise.
  - tmikaeld 3y ago
    I point out in my post that it's hopeless, that huge forces are pushing for more plastic. What's left? Only consumers affecting the supply and demand - or tech. I'm hoping more of a technological revolution, like this: https://twitter.com/thebetterindia/status/1673020840374333440 https://twitter.com/thebetterindia/status/167302084037433344... Algae is abundant, easy to grow and completely compostable - the problem - again, is capitalism holding it hostage.
    - simiones 3y ago
      Voters have a much higher chance of collectively modifying this behavior than consumers do. It's not easy, and the will doesn't seem to be there yet, but it's a hell of a lot easier to influence politicians than corporate conglomerates.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 3y ago
  > In the end, it's up to consumers. ...to vote for politicians who will regulate this shit. Pushing the responsibility to consumers is just BigCorp's messaging to externalize the responsibility.
- yowzadave 3y ago
  > In the end, it's up to consumers. This is the exact wrong conclusion to draw. The only way we've ever solved issues like this (CFCs, lead paint, leaded gas, etc.) is on the supply side through regulation. Yes, it's challenging and there are forces resisting these efforts, but it's certainly possible and has been done before.
yasman 3y ago
Something I recently learned is that PFAS, which might be a carcinogen and probably isn’t good for you, are in compostable take-way containers. https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/pfas-compostable-food-packaging-1.6794550 https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/pfas-compostable-food-packag...
- vladvasiliu 3y ago
  I was always a bit surprised to see these. At work, we used to have your classic Nespresso plasticy-cardboard coffee cups. They could be reused during the day, but you'd basically throw them away after a few uses. Now we get some "eco" "compostable" ones. To my untrained eye, aside from the different color, they look and feel exactly the same. They even have a drawing on them that I interpret as "we kill turtles". Not sure how these can be considered "green". I'm also curious how healthy it is to drink a hot beverage out of them.
  - yasman 3y ago
    IMO anything that is heated and plastic or plastic-adjacent is suspect. Not to mention the fact a lot of these “eco” things need special equipment to process which isn’t available everywhere
    - Gigachad 3y ago
      The eco cups are PLA. They are derived from a completely different source from the petrochemical plastics. While that doesn't on it's own make them completely safe, they likely have massively different properties from other plastics.
      - yasman 3y ago
        Thank you for sharing this - an interesting rabbit hole to go down. Found this with some quick googling: https://ift.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1541-4337.12726 https://ift.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1541-4337.12... Seems like the risk comes from additives to PLA? Seems exhausting to try and stay informed. Anyway, thanks for the info.
bmitc 3y ago
There are plastic rocks forming. Those aren't rocks with plastic melted on top of them. They are literally plastic rocks formed via the same processes alongside normal rocks. We could ban plastics tomorrow, and it wouldn't be enough. We've screwed over the entire Earth.
- Gigachad 3y ago
  It's basically the same situation as lead. It's been spread all over the place and doesn't break down. Thank god we at least managed to stop adding to the problem though.
  - bmitc 3y ago
    There are unfortunately still several sources of lead: solder, galvanized metal (something that gardeners and farmers use a lot!), cheap manufacturing, ammunition, airplane fuel, apparently still a lot of fishing equipment, and several other hobby and industrial sources.
- simiones 3y ago
  One day we'll start having microorganisms that can break down plastics efficiently. It took a few million years for wood, so I'm not holding my breath until it happens, but it will almost certainly happen. So the worse that can happen to the Earth itself is it'll have a layer of plastic residue just like it had a layer of wood residue (coal) until we started digging it up. Of course, as George Carlin used to say, the planet is fine: it's us that are fucked. We'll see how bad the effects of plastics on the long term really are, but if anyone suffers, it'll be us, not the planet or life on it in the long term.
  - bmitc 3y ago
    The planet really isn't fine by any rubric that considers the health of ecosystems and the environment unless one considers Mars and Venus also fine.
mjamesaustin 3y ago
People consider it a shocking or impossible policy to ban single use plastics, but future generations will look back on plastics the same way we do at lead paint or asbestos. We're poisoning ourselves and our planet.
- NovaDudely 3y ago
  Absolutely! Many think we are smarter than previous generations but just looking around and all the weird stuff we produce, I think we are just as stupid it will just take a few generations to realize it.
- julianfester 3y ago
  > future generations will look back on plastics the same way we do at lead paint or asbestos Only if there is an alternative, which doesn't exist at the moment. And no, plastics are way less dangerous than lead point or asbestos, its main problem is its sheer quantity.
- Gigachad 3y ago
  My city banned single use plastics ages ago. Plastic bags banned over a decade ago now. Plastic cutlery and containers banned in 2020. People freak out at the start and complain but no one cares and life continues on. Personally I bring my own bags to the supermarket since the paper ones are a bit annoying, but its trivial to just stuff one in my pocket before I leave.
  - veave 3y ago
    >People freak out at the start and complain but no one cares and life continues on. And what are we supposed to do against this, raise in arms? In my country we have two big parties but they are in cahoots (practically have the same progressive opinions on everything) so we can't even vote to have these authoritarian policies removed. There obviously are other parties but it would take something big, or reaching a tipping point, to break this cycle. It's not as easy as "no one cares". Many of us care but are powerless.
    - 3y ago
tangjurine 3y ago
https://archive.is/jkvaJ https://archive.is/jkvaJ
sacnoradhq 3y ago
Much of the 80's recycling movement was funded as greenwashing by the plastics industry. The lie was that plastic was a "closed cycle" and "infinitely reusable." In the late 90's/early 00's, "biodegradable plastic" was another lie. We need to ban all materials that persist with poisonous degradation products. Most bottles should then transition back to glass or to enamel-lined (not BPA) cans. Glass persists for thousands of years but isn't much different from rock. There's no need to worry about glass pollution because fragments quickly weather.
- abwizz 3y ago
  i like to walk barefeet, so i worry about glass pollution all the time
  - Brotkrumen 3y ago
    "we can't require eco-friendly alternatives to plastics because people litter" was not on my bingo sheet for today...
    - abwizz 3y ago
      thoughts and prayers for your bingo, but i consider myself part of the environment and thus object to suffering from more externalities of a technology that i consider partyly inferior (glass bottles are a lot heavier). the argument that glass is better in terms of decomposition when littered stands, but does not tell the whole story. (not unlike guns are good for self defense but the externalities paint a totally different picture)
      - permo-w 3y ago
        when you choose to deliberately expose yourself to vulnerability and walk barefoot, you take that responsibility onto yourself and can't blame others for what you stand on. the same would be true in nature
  - elric 3y ago
    Presumably, you have eyes, and can easily avoid glass pollution. That's what I do when I go around barefoot. I've stepped in/on all kinds of nasty shit, but never on anything sharp. If you don't have functioning eyes, I apologize, and imagine being blind and barefoot is a tricky combination.
realshadow 3y ago
I became a minimist to save the planet as much as i could. Its easier than any one could think you know. Here is what i have been doing for a decade and would receommend 1. Reusing plastic bags (i love cotton bags but not ideal). Fold and keep one or two in your pocket before you leave home 2. Support and use light software so you dont need to upgrade your gadgets (12y laptop i use) 3. Prepare and eat home cooked meal (its 360d in my life). Good for your health and the environment 4. Plant Trees. i plant one every month on average 5. Collect rain water and/or use less water 4. Prefer walking over any other transporation 5. Dont fucking care about trends. 6. Sleep 8hrs. less waking hours means less consumation.. lol 7. Prefer quality over quantity everytime. 8. Carry a water bottle (copper ideal). 9. fuck sugary drinks.
- vladvasiliu 3y ago
  > 8. Carry a water bottle (copper ideal). Why is copper better than stainless steel?
  - civilitty 3y ago
    Copper has anti-microbial properties and acts as a spermicide in a pinch.
    - dustypotato 3y ago
      Wait, what use do you see for it as a spermicide? How would you use it?
      - irrational 3y ago
        You don’t use copper condoms?
      - Maxion 3y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_IUD https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_IUD
neilv 3y ago
> For a hundred and thirty-four dollars, she purchases a box that can be returned to TerraCycle filled with plastic packaging, No match for domain "BETTACYCLE.COM". Looks like I found my next startup.
rkagerer 3y ago
The study found that, to have a lower environmental impact than a plastic bag, a paper bag would have to be used forty-three times and a cotton tote would have to be used an astonishing seventy-one hundred times. “How many of those bags will last that long?” Franklin-Wallis asks. Walker-Franklin and Jambeck also note that exchanging plastic for other materials may involve “tradeoffs,” including “energy and water use and carbon emissions.” Why am I not surprised.
- Brotkrumen 3y ago
  We can electrify the processes, make the power grid mostly green and require industrial processes to recycle most of its water. In fact the tech exists and the legislation exists and works.
- reaperman 3y ago
  It's very responsible of the New Yorker to bring this up. For individual studies it definitely depends on how "environmental impact" is defined. For example, looking at only GHG emissions, you'd have to use a ceramic mug 500 times (without breaking it!) before the GHG emissions of creating the mug was less than the GHG emissions of creating 500 styrofoam cups. That's because a styrofoam cup is 99% air and merely contains 4.4 grams of plastic (about 4mL of volume before it's foamed up and pumped full of gas). Whereas a ceramic mug weighs 200-400 grams. Just kilning the 400g of the mug to dry the clay uses a lot of energy / creates a lot of GHG emissions, compared to processing 4 grams of plastic. However, GHG emission is just one part of styrofoams environmental impact. The ceramic mug can be crushed up and essentially become part of clay again. The styrofoam just ... never decomposes. The styrofoam contains (and literally is itself) an endocrine disruptor -- so even as it does "decompose" it pollutes the environment with itself and other chemical additives in the polymer. The styrofoam is likely to contaminate your food as well, especially when restaurants put hot food in it and it melts small holes in the styrofoam box, or when kids chew on the styrofoam cups. But then, ceramic mugs may have various harmful metals in them or toxic chemicals/metals in its paint and glaze. Basically, it's very, very important for us to start doing full hazard and lifecycle analyses of the materials we use at large scales. Overall, I think we're currently greatly underestimating the hazards of most of the newer modern materials. I also think the energy requirements to switch back to traditional materials would be untenable -- and still require ubiquitous quality control to minimize harmful heavy metals / etc in the raw materials. But I think anyone who says "well it's just too hard then, forge ahead!" is terribly misguided or callous. And most people who say "we need to go back to metal/paper/wood/glass for everything!" needs to be fully prepared to describe to listeners/readers how that would affect daily habits -- you'd have to bring your own $5 drinking vessel to Starbucks because there probably wouldn't be a "to-go" cup available without petrochemical-based cups. I don't think everyone who pontificates on this is a hypocrite -- many of them do advocate for reducing consumption above all else. It's just a very hard sell. But we don't have any roadmap at all for taking these contaminants out of the environment once they disperse throughout it.
friend_and_foe 3y ago
It's a lot about recycling and very little about how it's poisoning human beings. I have a lot of unpopular opinions about plastic. I personally think it's not that big of a deal. Benzine compounds are naaty, but they're in your drinking water. I don't like them. But most plastic is organic compounds since it comes from oil. There are already microbes metabolizing it in the wild, and it's a rich energy source that most organisms aren't using, you can expect that adapted niche to be filled very quickly by those organisms. Additionally, I think there's too much of an aversion to burning it. Whether its for disposal or for fuel via depolymerization, I think we need to be burning more plastic. If you're worried about CO2 bear in mind, this stuff is in the environment and will decompose eventually. Overall I'm not that concerned about it, besides some things like PFAS and benzine compounds. And all that said, I'd bet money I dispose of significantly less plastic than the average European. First is water bottles. I don't do water bottles. I use those 5 gallon jugs and a hand pump dispenser on amazon, it works like a super soaker or a garden sprayer. That alone has me ahead of most Americans. Beyond that I prefer paper bags, and glass over plastic containers. It's just lifestyle decisions, I hardly care but I do it, it's not even effort at this point, it's just different habits. If you care and can't be bothered and I don't care and do it, do you really care? Avoiding single use plastic in your household is not really all that hard, things you can't avoid like linings in cans and what not aren't the problem, grocery bags and water bottles are the big ones, and you can do other things like never buy teflon, which I also do.
- maccard 3y ago
  > But most plastic is organic compounds since it comes from oil. It being an organic compound doesn't mean it's safe or something we should ignore. Asbestos is an organic compound with wildly useful properties. > Additionally, I think there's too much of an aversion to burning it. At home, its a terrible idea - it's super duper toxic a d leave a horrific nasty waste to dispose of. In a commercial setting maybe, but I'm not convinced it's going to be handled correctly without serious regulation. > And all that said, I'd bet money I dispose of significantly less plastic than the average European. First is water bottles. I don't do water bottles. I use those 5 gallon jugs and a hand pump dispenser on amazon, it works like a super soaker or a garden sprayer. That alone has me ahead of most Americans. Eh, are you comparing to Europeans or Americans? I don't have stats handy but tap water is potable and suitable for a large number of uses. No need for any plastic. > Avoiding single use plastic in your household is not really all that hard, things you can't avoid like linings in cans and what not aren't the problem, grocery bags and water bottles are the big ones, and you can do other things like never buy teflon, which I also do. You can't just decide the plastics that you use aren't the problem. Avoiding single use plastics might not be hard for you, I live within shopping distance of 3 supermarkets all of whom package most of their fruit and veg in single use plastics. That's my number one source of plastics, and there's nothing I can do about it.
hilbert42 3y ago
When I was a kid almost all packaged foods came in tins or glass containers. So did sodas/soft drinks. Biscuits and cookies came in large tins or cardboard boxes and the grocer weighed out what you wanted and put the contents into a paper bag. The greengrocer would put your fruit in a paper bag and you, the shopper, would place those paper bags into a string shopping bag. Supermarkets, which were just coming into vogue, either didn't offer shopping bags or if they did they were made of paper. Large items came in cardboard boxes and heavy items came in timber crates, fruit came packed in low grade wooden boxes which were later great for storing things in. Heavy machinery was often crated in large wooden containers. Toys were made of either wood or metal plate or diecast. ...But rarely of plastic. Plastic LEGO wasn't available, instead we kids played with wonderful Meccano made of steel! By comparison, plastics were few and far between and confined to a certain class of objects such as ballpoint pens, drawing set squares (often celluloid), radio cabinets (Bakelite), but TV sets cabinets were still fabricated from wood (3-ply and or Masonite) although the dials and knobs were plastic. Despite the current whingeing, the introduction of certain plastics was a great benefit, for example, from the mid 1950s onwards when PVC replaced perishable vulcanized rubber as electrical insulation in household wiring, electrical fires became much less common. That was a great advance forward. All this happened not that long ago. Things started to go really pear-shaped around the mid 1960s early '70s and by the 1980s it seemed that just about everything came in shrink-wrapped polyethylene or such. Now I can no longer buy, say a galvanized bucket, instead I have to buy crappy plastic ones that do not last—not long ago I bought three at the supermarket and the handle fell off one even before I got it home. Large plastic bins I use to put things in are made of polyethylene or similar and after the plasticizer bleeds out they becomes brittle and crack then fall to bits—it really is a damn pain this stuff just doesn't last. Plastics have their place. One of the great problems is that they are being abused in the ways we use them, back to those storage containers for a moment: if made of a good high grade durable plastic that's also thick enough not to break in normal use they'd last a lifetime after which they could be disposed of properly, instead they are deliberately designed to fail after little or no use. We've now reached the stage where these containers sold for domestic use are not fit for purpose. I'm of the opinion we need to tax the shit of plastic when it's used in items that either don't have an appropriate lifespan (i.e. not made sufficiently durable), and or where suitable alternative material exist—for instance wood, metal and glass for bottles etc. The argument that, say, glass is dangerous and plastic is safer doesn't hold water. Even in my lifetime I've seen a society that ran on glass and it ran OK! In cases where plastic has to be the preferred option then simply tax the shit out if it. People will either make do with cheaper glass or they'll pay a premium for plastic. Plastic drink bottles could have deposits on them so high that no one would ever think of disposing them other than to return them for the deposit. The only real problem in bringing plastics under control is opposition from greedy corporations that have nothing other than profit in mind. The first thing we citizens must to do is to limit their ability to lobby government on such matters.
cassepipe 3y ago
Keep it in the ground
GuB-42 3y ago
Considering how ubiquitous plastics are, they look rather harmless to me. We are wasting hundreds of millions of tons per year, we eat it, drink it, we have been doing that for decades and we are still discussing statistical signifiance. Sure, not completely harmless, but few things are. And considering the tremendous value plastics have brought to society, I'd say the downsides are comparatively small. What worries me more than human poisoning the article is about is the effect of microplastics on marine life, as it is less studied than people and there is some evidence that the physical (more than chemical) properties of plastic particle might be damaging. It doesn't mean there isn't something to be done. Proper waste management is the obvious one, and I don't mean anything fancy, I mean "do not empty you trash in nature" thing that is unfortunately much too common, especially in developing countries. Properly managed landfills would probably solve 90% of the plastics problems. Reducing disposable plastic is, I think, generally a good thing, but not before making sure the alternative is not worse, and of course making sure that "disposable plastic", is not "throw it in nature plastic". We should also research better plastics: make sure the durable ones are actually durable, and that the disposable ones degrade properly, also consider the petrochemical industry that backs it up and maybe switch to more sustainable sources.
- rTX5CMRXIfFG 3y ago
  If you actually read the article before commenting: > The hazards of ingesting large pieces of plastic are pretty straightforward; they include choking and perforation of the intestinal tract. Animals that fill their guts with plastics eventually starve to death. The risks posed by microplastics are subtler, but not, Simon argues, any less serious. Plastics are made from by-products of oil and gas refining; many of the chemicals involved, such as benzene and vinyl chloride, are carcinogens. In addition to their main ingredients, plastics may contain any number of additives. Many of these—for example, polyfluoroalkyl substances, or PFASs, which confer water resistance—are also suspected carcinogens. Many of the others have never been adequately tested. Honestly it’s not surprising that scientists are worried about the harmful effects of plastics to human health because the introduction of many substances non-native to the human body brings about some kind of long-term illness as a negative reaction. Just because you can’t detect it with your senses and within a short time frame doesn’t mean that a phenomenon is not happening. People could really do more with questioning their opinions more than just jumping straight into availing of their freedom of speech.
EGreg 3y ago
It’s not just plastics. It’s how capitalism works around the world. I wrote about it two years ago: https://magarshak.com/blog/?p=362 https://magarshak.com/blog/?p=362 Back when I wrote it, I suspected the industry intentionally worked with government to distract the public, and now in this article it is confirmed: Under public pressure, a company like Coca-Cola or Nestlé pledges to insure that the packaging for its products gets recycled. When the pressure eases, it quietly abandons its pledge. Meanwhile, it lobbies against any kind of legislation that would restrict the sale of single-use plastics. Franklin-Wallis quotes Larry Thomas, the former president of the Society of the Plastics Industry, who once said, “If the public thinks recycling is working, then they are not going to be as concerned about the environment.”
- myshpa 3y ago
  How Big Oil Misled The Public Into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled https://www.npr.org/2020/09/11/897692090/how-big-oil-misled-the-public-into-believing-plastic-would-be-recycled https://www.npr.org/2020/09/11/897692090/how-big-oil-misled-... Even Greenpeace now admits the obvious: recycling doesn’t work https://www.city-journal.org/article/on-second-thought-just-throw-plastic-away https://www.city-journal.org/article/on-second-thought-just-... Europe’s circular economy is leaking https://www.investigate-europe.eu/en/2023/europes-circular-economy-is-leaking/ https://www.investigate-europe.eu/en/2023/europes-circular-e... How Big Oil is manipulating the way you think about climate change https://www.salon.com/2023/05/13/how-big-oil-is-manipulating-the-way-you-think-about-climate-change/ https://www.salon.com/2023/05/13/how-big-oil-is-manipulating... Chemical industry used big tobacco’s tactics to conceal evidence of PFAS risks https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jun/07/pfas-3m-dupont-chemical-industry-health-toxic-study https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jun/07/pfas-3m-... Companies Knew the Dangers of PFAS 'Forever Chemicals'—and Kept Them Secret https://time.com/6284266/pfas-forever-chemicals-manufacturers-kept-secret/ https://time.com/6284266/pfas-forever-chemicals-manufacturer... WHO's Proposed Limits on PFAS in Drinking Water Far Too Weak: Experts https://www.commondreams.org/news/who-pfas-drinking-water-proposal https://www.commondreams.org/news/who-pfas-drinking-water-pr... Rightwing war on ‘woke capitalism’ partly driven by fossil fuel interests and allies https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/22/rightwing-war-on-woke-capitalism-industry-interests https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/22/rightwing-wa... Outside the Safe Operating Space of a New Planetary Boundary for Per- and Polyfluoroalkyl Substances (PFAS) https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.2c02765 https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.2c02765 Documenting the Hidden History of Chemical and Pesticide Hazards in the United States https://www.poisonpapers.org/ https://www.poisonpapers.org/
hospitalJail 3y ago
The word 'Plastic' needs to die. Instead we should be more specific on the type of plastic. Teflon, PLA, ABS, resins, foams, etc... are all plastics, but they are so unrelated outside their long chains, its terrible to stereotype them all into one category. You aren't going to get cancer from PLA or Teflon, but rather the manufacturing process. You can eat these plastics as far as I know and you'd be fine. Eat something with BPA in it, you are probably going to have a bad time. Maybe the solution is better labeling. I know its near impossible to have perfect consistency in plastic manufacturing(I worked in foam, mind boggling we consider testing these foams one time, and considered it the same foam for the next 8 years). However, knowing precursors, additives, and potentially process would make a huge difference in our ability to track problems. EDIT: Someone called out PLA as potentially dangerous. After looking it up, I'm skeptical of the oxygen double bond attached to a carbon attached to an oxygen. The wikipedia article had no health concerns, but that carbon atom seems ripe for reaction. Let me change my answer on PLA to 'I don't know'.
- myshpa 3y ago
  Plastic overuse/overproduction needs to die. What Microplastics Might Be Doing to Our Intestines https://now.tufts.edu/2023/06/09/what-microplastics-might-be-doing-our-intestines https://now.tufts.edu/2023/06/09/what-microplastics-might-be... Nanoplastic Ingestion Causes Neurological Deficits https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/nanoplastic-ingestion-causes-neurological-deficits-71152 https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/nanoplastic-inges... Microplastics can stick in human airways, new study finds https://www.ctvnews.ca/climate-and-environment/microplastics-can-stick-in-human-airways-new-study-finds-1.6441541 https://www.ctvnews.ca/climate-and-environment/microplastics... Many BPA-Free Plastics Are Toxic. Some Are Worse Than BPA https://www.discovermagazine.com/health/many-bpa-free-plastics-are-toxic-some-are-worse-than-bpa https://www.discovermagazine.com/health/many-bpa-free-plasti... Plastic pollution is so bad for animals it now has a disease name — 'plasticosis' https://www.cbc.ca/radio/quirks/research-ocean-plastic-birds-plasticosis-1.6863788 https://www.cbc.ca/radio/quirks/research-ocean-plastic-birds... Microplastics found in every sample of water taken during the Ocean Race https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jun/05/microplastics-found-in-every-sample-of-water-taken-during-ocean-race https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jun/05/micropla... Secret industry documents reveal that makers of PFAS 'forever chemicals' covered up their health dangers https://phys.org/news/2023-05-secret-industry-documents-reveal-makers.html https://phys.org/news/2023-05-secret-industry-documents-reve... Forever Toxic: The science on health threats from plastic recycling https://www.greenpeace.org/usa/reports/forever-toxic/ https://www.greenpeace.org/usa/reports/forever-toxic/ Microplastics detected in meat, milk and blood of farm animals https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jul/08/microplastics-detected-in-meat-milk-and-blood-of-farm-animals https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jul/08/micropla... Yet Another Problem With Recycling: It Spews Microplastics https://www.wired.com/story/yet-another-problem-with-recycling-it-spews-microplastics/ https://www.wired.com/story/yet-another-problem-with-recycli... Tiny Polystyrene Particles Detected in the Brain Just Two Hours After Ingestion https://neurosciencenews.com/polystyrene-brain-23079/ https://neurosciencenews.com/polystyrene-brain-23079/ 60% of home ‘compostable’ plastic doesn’t fully break down, ending up in our soil https://blog.frontiersin.org/2022/11/03/60-of-home-compostable-plastic-doesnt-fully-break-down-ending-up-in-our-soil/ https://blog.frontiersin.org/2022/11/03/60-of-home-compostab... (... thousands others)
falloutx 3y ago
Remind me why should we save the environment/planet? At this point its owned by big corporations and governments, so it should be them who need to save it.
- AnimalMuppet 3y ago
  Because we live in it. I hope to be breathing tomorrow. Therefore I care about what we put in the air today. I hope to be eating next year. Therefore I care about what we put in the soil this year. I hope to be drinking next decade. Therefore I care about what goes into the groundwater this decade. What I eat, drink, and breathe becomes my body. If those things are garbage (or worse, poison), my health will suffer. [Edit: And to answer the actual thrust of your question, because the corporations aren't going to.] Corporations may "own" that stuff (I disagree, but let that pass). But my body is mine, and corporations aren't going to take care of it for me.
- GivinStatic 3y ago
  We don't. This planet will get along just fine, we humans on the other hand.. This planet has seen cataclysms, mass extinctions and destruction on planetary scale, it'll be fine. Not us.
defensem3ch 3y ago
it's cheap and easy to build a DIY infrared heat lamp sauna for detox so you can sweat out the bisphenols and phthalates!
- somsak2 3y ago
  source for you being able to "sweat out" plastics?
agumonkey 3y ago
Who here tried the Zero Waste lifestyle ? (from her https://duckduckgo.com/?q=zero+waste+bea+johnson&t=h_&ia=web https://duckduckgo.com/?q=zero+waste+bea+johnson&t=h_&ia=web)
hackernoteng 3y ago
Glad to see this is finally coming out in main stream media. Its been well known for decades among the so called "conspiracy theorists". Same thing with pesticide/herbicide being endocrine disrupting and cancer causing chemicals. Hopefully this type of thing start to get as much visibility and legislation as the so called "climate crisis" does.
- elric 3y ago
  I've never heard of anyone referring to this as a "conspiracy theory". The toxicity of many types of plastics has been common knowledge for a very long time. Same with pesticides/herbicides. This has been discussed in "main stream media" for years, probably decades. There have even been various legislative attempts to curb their usage or improve their safe disposal.
  - jcutrell 3y ago
    There are definitely people who land squarely in conspiracy theory land for this. For example, those who avoid literally all plastic, and won’t eat something that touched even the most stable forms of plastic, despite having little to no evidence of leaching at whatever temperature their bottle of water is at.
mensetmanusman 3y ago
Sugar is probably poisoning us much more, but we probably won't care until we reach over 75% obesity rate.
- rngname22 3y ago
  Diet is only one part of life, and it's a lot easier to just choose foods lacking added sugar than it is to avoid plastic. Especially if you just only consume raw foods not processed ones. Plastic is in the products you use, the tech you use, the clothing you're marketed, the vehicles you use, the infrastructure you use, the logistics systems of the non-plastics goods you buy, the housewares you use, the house you live in, the infrastructure you rely on, it's harder to point to things that don't involve plastics than things that do.
aceazzameen 3y ago
Personally I think there needs to be more studies on all the plastics shedding from clothing. Maybe there is? But I usually see the focus on ingestion. We all inhale plastic microfibers every day. Is it worse then ingestion? Is it mostly inert? Or are we slowly degrading certain functions in our bodies?
jcutrell 3y ago
What is the best evidence out there for what behaviors, products etc are, at a personal level, more dangerous? For example, I have a Breville Precision coffeemaker. How much plastic is getting leached into my daily cup of coffee? Should I go back to manual pourovers? What is the real hazard I'm risking? How does this compare to other behaviors I may have? Are there other behaviors that I can moderate for high bang/buck ratio?
Oleksa_dr 3y ago
It all depends on global and legislative initiatives. Only restrictions on the production of plastic and cardboard (!!!) work. Personal initiatives are just romanticization and a philosophy that shifts the problem from the producer to the consumer (who has no choice). Metal is an alternative to many things. Plastic is only for containers and things with a long cycle of use. It has its advantages. It is more resistant to impact than metal (falls, bumps) and retains its shape. Glass is not an alternative at all, it is not comfortable, it breaks, leaves fragments that you will not find on the ground or in your body. It is not resistant to falls, shocks, frequent temperature changes (just pour hot into a cold cup, or vice versa). And it's not pleasant to the touch, with limited use where it really is the best choice. But this is not a problem in itself, we need to localize food production more so that it doesn't have to be stored for a long time and therefore use a lot of packaging. We need it to travel quickly from the producer to the store to the consumer, without plastic packaging as much as possible. Over the past 4 years, I have been horrified to see that the amount of plastic waste I generate has increased dramatically, without changing my consumption and habits.
- goeiedaggoeie 3y ago
  >>Only restrictions on the production of plastic and cardboard (!!!) work. Agreed. we need to price in the externalities into the cost of manufacturing, else it will always be a tragedy of the commons
- Tagbert 3y ago
  Why do you want to restrict cardboard production? It is one of the best alternatives to plastic for many purposes.
1970-01-01 3y ago
Realize we literally cannot stop making plastic. If we did, modern civilization would collapse. All PCBs and electric devices have some type of plastic in them, including wires and plugs. The only way to read this comment is via plastic.
- alostpuppy 3y ago
  I always think of modern medicine and how much plastic is involved there.
- peanuty1 3y ago
  We could make a lot less without collapsing modern civilization though.
- VerminOctopus1 3y ago
  Plastics are incredibly useful and enable modern society as you correctly point out. In an ideal world, governments would at least phase out single use plastics.
hejcloud 3y ago
In Germany, they introduced a system called "Grüner Punkt" (~green dot) in the 90s which was supposed to teach consumers how to separate different kinds of trash to be able to recycle the packaging plastic. Now about 30 years later, the Germans are eager to sort their trash but the recycling quote is still laughably low. Less than 20% of sorted trash gets recycled for usage in plastic (and instead just burned, reusing the thermal energy) and people still have ridiculous habits (e.g. wrapping Bananas with plastic bags). What we see is: It's all damn industry lies, one part of politicians susceptible for industry lobbying, the other part of politicians antagonized for "limiting consumer freedom", a lot of green-/whitewashing campaigns and consumers who refuse to change their habits. Do you see a pattern?
- mistrial9 3y ago
  GreenDot implementation as a business case for recycling economics was examined here in California when the Electronics Recycling was in formation. There were some structural problems with the way that money moved through the system, the product categories, the marking system and the handling systems. Improvements are possible, and the obstacles in the GreenDot system are real. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Electronic_Waste_Recycling_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Electronic_Waste_Re...
ghostDancer 3y ago
We are poisoning ourselves in the name of economic growth would be more correct. But in HN the debate is about if plastic is a correct word and what term should be used and labeling, a place where everybody knows that the majority of people don't read labels, instructions or manuals.
padjo 3y ago
I wonder if all our plastic waste will ultimately leave a geological record. Will far future organisms call this the plasticene?
ArunRaja 3y ago
> Among the many creatures being done in by all this junk are corals, tortoises, and elephants Other creatures include Snake, whale, crocodile, giraffe, cow, dog, crab, sea lion. Twitter thread with images: https://twitter.com/aadhi_reach/status/1264109645125189632?t=ab3WXCnzSo5-2xLmkppzFg&s=19 https://twitter.com/aadhi_reach/status/1264109645125189632?t...
DavideNL 3y ago
Related: the "Beat The Micro Bead" app, to scan products to see if it contains microplastics. https://www.beatthemicrobead.org/download-btmb-app/ https://www.beatthemicrobead.org/download-btmb-app/

443 points by fortran77 3y ago

[dead]

Really surprised not to see a single mention of masks in this article. N95 and surgical masks are made from an energy intensive process that spin microplastics into a woven structure. When wearing these masks, you're subjected to a small amount of inhaled microplastics. Normally this isn't a problem, since people used to wear these masks just for medical procedures, or for certain construction jobs that emit high amounts of particles, but at my office now I see people wearing these things for 8+ hours a day! And at the end of the day, hundreds upon hundreds of these masks are just thrown in the landfill (or in SF, just on the street). This is the worst case of misuse/overuse of plastics by far, and nobody seems to talk about it. Please, if you insist on continuing to wear a mask, switch to a reusable one.

tmikaeld 3y ago

Yes? At this point, it's hopeless - plastics are expanding like never before, Shell expanding several new enormous factories right in the US. No politician is interested in stopping it either, since the lobbying industry for plastics is also going strong. The only legislation passed in modern time is against single-use plastics, which is just a tiny drop in the ocean (!!) of plastic. And also, the clothes industry is massive and went from an already cheap source like cotton, to plastic. Consider the forces here that push plastics - influensers, marketers and huge brands. It's hard to find consumers or manufacturers willing to pay several times more for the better alternative.. EDIT: In the end, it's up to consumers. Personally, I'm using glass, it's infinitely re-usable. I use hemp clothes, it lasts many times longer and I don't own a car, I bike everywhere.

tfourb 3y ago
Not sure how the "it's to late to do anything about it" is supposed to contribute to this debate. It's also factually wrong. The production of new plastics could be drastically reduced through regulation of both the production itself and its use cases. Most food and drink containers could be made from non-plastic materials. I've built a house that uses maybe 5% of the plastic that is common in construction where I live. You could pull out the cables, window seals, roof cover and switches and basically leave the rest of the house to compost. The government could mandate that producers of plastics must offer a convenient and financially attractive way to hand in old plastics. There are a thousand ways to drastically improve this problem, fatalism only contributes to it.
- iforgotpassword 3y ago
  > The government could mandate that producers of plastics must offer a convenient and financially attractive way to hand in old plastics. We already have this. It's called trash can. How would letting the producers handle this instead would change anything? The plastic was still produced and will end up in a landfill or the ocean.
  - __MatrixMan__ 3y ago
    I couldn't speak for other brands, but Brother will give you a free shipping label so you can send your empty toner cartridge back to them. It's not charity, they want it back because they can reuse most of it in ways that a melt-and-remold style recycling scheme can't. I see no reason the same couldn't be true of most packaging, in addition to things like TV's. If you built it, you ought to be uniquely positioned to recycle it. In addition to trying to get consumers to change their habits we should also be fining/billing manufacturers when their stuff end up as litter or in a landfill. If they don't like it, they can redesign their processes to avoid it.
    - mrob 3y ago
      I think we should be subsidizing plastics that end up in landfill. It's the best place for it, as it's both safely contained and impractical to take out again, making it a reliable form of carbon sequestration.
kossTKR 3y ago
"In the end, it's up to consumers." No it's not. Please don't spread sinister pro industry falsities like this. Nothing has ever changed because of some symbolic drops in the ocean. Regulation and collective action is the only thing that has ever worked, all personal lifestyle choices are romanticizations about personal effects that the industry loves because it has pushed responsibility to consumers, like much of the astroturfed recycling movement that is theatre hiding actual policy making. If people want to do anything that makes any kind of actual difference they should get into anything that's anti the big industry lobbies or collective action and see through the jungle of astroturfing and "lifestyle signaling" greenwashing noise.
- tmikaeld 3y ago
  I point out in my post that it's hopeless, that huge forces are pushing for more plastic. What's left? Only consumers affecting the supply and demand - or tech. I'm hoping more of a technological revolution, like this: https://twitter.com/thebetterindia/status/1673020840374333440 https://twitter.com/thebetterindia/status/167302084037433344... Algae is abundant, easy to grow and completely compostable - the problem - again, is capitalism holding it hostage.
  - simiones 3y ago
    Voters have a much higher chance of collectively modifying this behavior than consumers do. It's not easy, and the will doesn't seem to be there yet, but it's a hell of a lot easier to influence politicians than corporate conglomerates.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 3y ago
> In the end, it's up to consumers. ...to vote for politicians who will regulate this shit. Pushing the responsibility to consumers is just BigCorp's messaging to externalize the responsibility.
yowzadave 3y ago
> In the end, it's up to consumers. This is the exact wrong conclusion to draw. The only way we've ever solved issues like this (CFCs, lead paint, leaded gas, etc.) is on the supply side through regulation. Yes, it's challenging and there are forces resisting these efforts, but it's certainly possible and has been done before.

yasman 3y ago

Something I recently learned is that PFAS, which might be a carcinogen and probably isn’t good for you, are in compostable take-way containers. https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/pfas-compostable-food-packaging-1.6794550 https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/pfas-compostable-food-packag...

vladvasiliu 3y ago
I was always a bit surprised to see these. At work, we used to have your classic Nespresso plasticy-cardboard coffee cups. They could be reused during the day, but you'd basically throw them away after a few uses. Now we get some "eco" "compostable" ones. To my untrained eye, aside from the different color, they look and feel exactly the same. They even have a drawing on them that I interpret as "we kill turtles". Not sure how these can be considered "green". I'm also curious how healthy it is to drink a hot beverage out of them.
- yasman 3y ago
  IMO anything that is heated and plastic or plastic-adjacent is suspect. Not to mention the fact a lot of these “eco” things need special equipment to process which isn’t available everywhere
  - Gigachad 3y ago
    The eco cups are PLA. They are derived from a completely different source from the petrochemical plastics. While that doesn't on it's own make them completely safe, they likely have massively different properties from other plastics.
    - yasman 3y ago
      Thank you for sharing this - an interesting rabbit hole to go down. Found this with some quick googling: https://ift.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1541-4337.12726 https://ift.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1541-4337.12... Seems like the risk comes from additives to PLA? Seems exhausting to try and stay informed. Anyway, thanks for the info.

bmitc 3y ago

There are plastic rocks forming. Those aren't rocks with plastic melted on top of them. They are literally plastic rocks formed via the same processes alongside normal rocks. We could ban plastics tomorrow, and it wouldn't be enough. We've screwed over the entire Earth.

Gigachad 3y ago
It's basically the same situation as lead. It's been spread all over the place and doesn't break down. Thank god we at least managed to stop adding to the problem though.
- bmitc 3y ago
  There are unfortunately still several sources of lead: solder, galvanized metal (something that gardeners and farmers use a lot!), cheap manufacturing, ammunition, airplane fuel, apparently still a lot of fishing equipment, and several other hobby and industrial sources.
simiones 3y ago
One day we'll start having microorganisms that can break down plastics efficiently. It took a few million years for wood, so I'm not holding my breath until it happens, but it will almost certainly happen. So the worse that can happen to the Earth itself is it'll have a layer of plastic residue just like it had a layer of wood residue (coal) until we started digging it up. Of course, as George Carlin used to say, the planet is fine: it's us that are fucked. We'll see how bad the effects of plastics on the long term really are, but if anyone suffers, it'll be us, not the planet or life on it in the long term.
- bmitc 3y ago
  The planet really isn't fine by any rubric that considers the health of ecosystems and the environment unless one considers Mars and Venus also fine.

mjamesaustin 3y ago

People consider it a shocking or impossible policy to ban single use plastics, but future generations will look back on plastics the same way we do at lead paint or asbestos. We're poisoning ourselves and our planet.

NovaDudely 3y ago
Absolutely! Many think we are smarter than previous generations but just looking around and all the weird stuff we produce, I think we are just as stupid it will just take a few generations to realize it.
julianfester 3y ago
> future generations will look back on plastics the same way we do at lead paint or asbestos Only if there is an alternative, which doesn't exist at the moment. And no, plastics are way less dangerous than lead point or asbestos, its main problem is its sheer quantity.
Gigachad 3y ago
My city banned single use plastics ages ago. Plastic bags banned over a decade ago now. Plastic cutlery and containers banned in 2020. People freak out at the start and complain but no one cares and life continues on. Personally I bring my own bags to the supermarket since the paper ones are a bit annoying, but its trivial to just stuff one in my pocket before I leave.
- veave 3y ago
  >People freak out at the start and complain but no one cares and life continues on. And what are we supposed to do against this, raise in arms? In my country we have two big parties but they are in cahoots (practically have the same progressive opinions on everything) so we can't even vote to have these authoritarian policies removed. There obviously are other parties but it would take something big, or reaching a tipping point, to break this cycle. It's not as easy as "no one cares". Many of us care but are powerless.
  - 3y ago

tangjurine 3y ago

https://archive.is/jkvaJ https://archive.is/jkvaJ

sacnoradhq 3y ago

Much of the 80's recycling movement was funded as greenwashing by the plastics industry. The lie was that plastic was a "closed cycle" and "infinitely reusable." In the late 90's/early 00's, "biodegradable plastic" was another lie. We need to ban all materials that persist with poisonous degradation products. Most bottles should then transition back to glass or to enamel-lined (not BPA) cans. Glass persists for thousands of years but isn't much different from rock. There's no need to worry about glass pollution because fragments quickly weather.

abwizz 3y ago
i like to walk barefeet, so i worry about glass pollution all the time
- Brotkrumen 3y ago
  "we can't require eco-friendly alternatives to plastics because people litter" was not on my bingo sheet for today...
  - abwizz 3y ago
    thoughts and prayers for your bingo, but i consider myself part of the environment and thus object to suffering from more externalities of a technology that i consider partyly inferior (glass bottles are a lot heavier). the argument that glass is better in terms of decomposition when littered stands, but does not tell the whole story. (not unlike guns are good for self defense but the externalities paint a totally different picture)
    - permo-w 3y ago
      when you choose to deliberately expose yourself to vulnerability and walk barefoot, you take that responsibility onto yourself and can't blame others for what you stand on. the same would be true in nature
- elric 3y ago
  Presumably, you have eyes, and can easily avoid glass pollution. That's what I do when I go around barefoot. I've stepped in/on all kinds of nasty shit, but never on anything sharp. If you don't have functioning eyes, I apologize, and imagine being blind and barefoot is a tricky combination.

realshadow 3y ago

I became a minimist to save the planet as much as i could. Its easier than any one could think you know. Here is what i have been doing for a decade and would receommend 1. Reusing plastic bags (i love cotton bags but not ideal). Fold and keep one or two in your pocket before you leave home 2. Support and use light software so you dont need to upgrade your gadgets (12y laptop i use) 3. Prepare and eat home cooked meal (its 360d in my life). Good for your health and the environment 4. Plant Trees. i plant one every month on average 5. Collect rain water and/or use less water 4. Prefer walking over any other transporation 5. Dont fucking care about trends. 6. Sleep 8hrs. less waking hours means less consumation.. lol 7. Prefer quality over quantity everytime. 8. Carry a water bottle (copper ideal). 9. fuck sugary drinks.

vladvasiliu 3y ago
> 8. Carry a water bottle (copper ideal). Why is copper better than stainless steel?
- civilitty 3y ago
  Copper has anti-microbial properties and acts as a spermicide in a pinch.
  - dustypotato 3y ago
    Wait, what use do you see for it as a spermicide? How would you use it?
    - irrational 3y ago
      You don’t use copper condoms?
    - Maxion 3y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_IUD https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_IUD

neilv 3y ago

> For a hundred and thirty-four dollars, she purchases a box that can be returned to TerraCycle filled with plastic packaging, No match for domain "BETTACYCLE.COM". Looks like I found my next startup.

rkagerer 3y ago

The study found that, to have a lower environmental impact than a plastic bag, a paper bag would have to be used forty-three times and a cotton tote would have to be used an astonishing seventy-one hundred times. “How many of those bags will last that long?” Franklin-Wallis asks. Walker-Franklin and Jambeck also note that exchanging plastic for other materials may involve “tradeoffs,” including “energy and water use and carbon emissions.” Why am I not surprised.

Brotkrumen 3y ago
We can electrify the processes, make the power grid mostly green and require industrial processes to recycle most of its water. In fact the tech exists and the legislation exists and works.
reaperman 3y ago
It's very responsible of the New Yorker to bring this up. For individual studies it definitely depends on how "environmental impact" is defined. For example, looking at only GHG emissions, you'd have to use a ceramic mug 500 times (without breaking it!) before the GHG emissions of creating the mug was less than the GHG emissions of creating 500 styrofoam cups. That's because a styrofoam cup is 99% air and merely contains 4.4 grams of plastic (about 4mL of volume before it's foamed up and pumped full of gas). Whereas a ceramic mug weighs 200-400 grams. Just kilning the 400g of the mug to dry the clay uses a lot of energy / creates a lot of GHG emissions, compared to processing 4 grams of plastic. However, GHG emission is just one part of styrofoams environmental impact. The ceramic mug can be crushed up and essentially become part of clay again. The styrofoam just ... never decomposes. The styrofoam contains (and literally is itself) an endocrine disruptor -- so even as it does "decompose" it pollutes the environment with itself and other chemical additives in the polymer. The styrofoam is likely to contaminate your food as well, especially when restaurants put hot food in it and it melts small holes in the styrofoam box, or when kids chew on the styrofoam cups. But then, ceramic mugs may have various harmful metals in them or toxic chemicals/metals in its paint and glaze. Basically, it's very, very important for us to start doing full hazard and lifecycle analyses of the materials we use at large scales. Overall, I think we're currently greatly underestimating the hazards of most of the newer modern materials. I also think the energy requirements to switch back to traditional materials would be untenable -- and still require ubiquitous quality control to minimize harmful heavy metals / etc in the raw materials. But I think anyone who says "well it's just too hard then, forge ahead!" is terribly misguided or callous. And most people who say "we need to go back to metal/paper/wood/glass for everything!" needs to be fully prepared to describe to listeners/readers how that would affect daily habits -- you'd have to bring your own $5 drinking vessel to Starbucks because there probably wouldn't be a "to-go" cup available without petrochemical-based cups. I don't think everyone who pontificates on this is a hypocrite -- many of them do advocate for reducing consumption above all else. It's just a very hard sell. But we don't have any roadmap at all for taking these contaminants out of the environment once they disperse throughout it.

friend_and_foe 3y ago

It's a lot about recycling and very little about how it's poisoning human beings. I have a lot of unpopular opinions about plastic. I personally think it's not that big of a deal. Benzine compounds are naaty, but they're in your drinking water. I don't like them. But most plastic is organic compounds since it comes from oil. There are already microbes metabolizing it in the wild, and it's a rich energy source that most organisms aren't using, you can expect that adapted niche to be filled very quickly by those organisms. Additionally, I think there's too much of an aversion to burning it. Whether its for disposal or for fuel via depolymerization, I think we need to be burning more plastic. If you're worried about CO2 bear in mind, this stuff is in the environment and will decompose eventually. Overall I'm not that concerned about it, besides some things like PFAS and benzine compounds. And all that said, I'd bet money I dispose of significantly less plastic than the average European. First is water bottles. I don't do water bottles. I use those 5 gallon jugs and a hand pump dispenser on amazon, it works like a super soaker or a garden sprayer. That alone has me ahead of most Americans. Beyond that I prefer paper bags, and glass over plastic containers. It's just lifestyle decisions, I hardly care but I do it, it's not even effort at this point, it's just different habits. If you care and can't be bothered and I don't care and do it, do you really care? Avoiding single use plastic in your household is not really all that hard, things you can't avoid like linings in cans and what not aren't the problem, grocery bags and water bottles are the big ones, and you can do other things like never buy teflon, which I also do.

maccard 3y ago
> But most plastic is organic compounds since it comes from oil. It being an organic compound doesn't mean it's safe or something we should ignore. Asbestos is an organic compound with wildly useful properties. > Additionally, I think there's too much of an aversion to burning it. At home, its a terrible idea - it's super duper toxic a d leave a horrific nasty waste to dispose of. In a commercial setting maybe, but I'm not convinced it's going to be handled correctly without serious regulation. > And all that said, I'd bet money I dispose of significantly less plastic than the average European. First is water bottles. I don't do water bottles. I use those 5 gallon jugs and a hand pump dispenser on amazon, it works like a super soaker or a garden sprayer. That alone has me ahead of most Americans. Eh, are you comparing to Europeans or Americans? I don't have stats handy but tap water is potable and suitable for a large number of uses. No need for any plastic. > Avoiding single use plastic in your household is not really all that hard, things you can't avoid like linings in cans and what not aren't the problem, grocery bags and water bottles are the big ones, and you can do other things like never buy teflon, which I also do. You can't just decide the plastics that you use aren't the problem. Avoiding single use plastics might not be hard for you, I live within shopping distance of 3 supermarkets all of whom package most of their fruit and veg in single use plastics. That's my number one source of plastics, and there's nothing I can do about it.

hilbert42 3y ago

When I was a kid almost all packaged foods came in tins or glass containers. So did sodas/soft drinks. Biscuits and cookies came in large tins or cardboard boxes and the grocer weighed out what you wanted and put the contents into a paper bag. The greengrocer would put your fruit in a paper bag and you, the shopper, would place those paper bags into a string shopping bag. Supermarkets, which were just coming into vogue, either didn't offer shopping bags or if they did they were made of paper. Large items came in cardboard boxes and heavy items came in timber crates, fruit came packed in low grade wooden boxes which were later great for storing things in. Heavy machinery was often crated in large wooden containers. Toys were made of either wood or metal plate or diecast. ...But rarely of plastic. Plastic LEGO wasn't available, instead we kids played with wonderful Meccano made of steel! By comparison, plastics were few and far between and confined to a certain class of objects such as ballpoint pens, drawing set squares (often celluloid), radio cabinets (Bakelite), but TV sets cabinets were still fabricated from wood (3-ply and or Masonite) although the dials and knobs were plastic. Despite the current whingeing, the introduction of certain plastics was a great benefit, for example, from the mid 1950s onwards when PVC replaced perishable vulcanized rubber as electrical insulation in household wiring, electrical fires became much less common. That was a great advance forward. All this happened not that long ago. Things started to go really pear-shaped around the mid 1960s early '70s and by the 1980s it seemed that just about everything came in shrink-wrapped polyethylene or such. Now I can no longer buy, say a galvanized bucket, instead I have to buy crappy plastic ones that do not last—not long ago I bought three at the supermarket and the handle fell off one even before I got it home. Large plastic bins I use to put things in are made of polyethylene or similar and after the plasticizer bleeds out they becomes brittle and crack then fall to bits—it really is a damn pain this stuff just doesn't last. Plastics have their place. One of the great problems is that they are being abused in the ways we use them, back to those storage containers for a moment: if made of a good high grade durable plastic that's also thick enough not to break in normal use they'd last a lifetime after which they could be disposed of properly, instead they are deliberately designed to fail after little or no use. We've now reached the stage where these containers sold for domestic use are not fit for purpose. I'm of the opinion we need to tax the shit of plastic when it's used in items that either don't have an appropriate lifespan (i.e. not made sufficiently durable), and or where suitable alternative material exist—for instance wood, metal and glass for bottles etc. The argument that, say, glass is dangerous and plastic is safer doesn't hold water. Even in my lifetime I've seen a society that ran on glass and it ran OK! In cases where plastic has to be the preferred option then simply tax the shit out if it. People will either make do with cheaper glass or they'll pay a premium for plastic. Plastic drink bottles could have deposits on them so high that no one would ever think of disposing them other than to return them for the deposit. The only real problem in bringing plastics under control is opposition from greedy corporations that have nothing other than profit in mind. The first thing we citizens must to do is to limit their ability to lobby government on such matters.

cassepipe 3y ago

Keep it in the ground

GuB-42 3y ago

Considering how ubiquitous plastics are, they look rather harmless to me. We are wasting hundreds of millions of tons per year, we eat it, drink it, we have been doing that for decades and we are still discussing statistical signifiance. Sure, not completely harmless, but few things are. And considering the tremendous value plastics have brought to society, I'd say the downsides are comparatively small. What worries me more than human poisoning the article is about is the effect of microplastics on marine life, as it is less studied than people and there is some evidence that the physical (more than chemical) properties of plastic particle might be damaging. It doesn't mean there isn't something to be done. Proper waste management is the obvious one, and I don't mean anything fancy, I mean "do not empty you trash in nature" thing that is unfortunately much too common, especially in developing countries. Properly managed landfills would probably solve 90% of the plastics problems. Reducing disposable plastic is, I think, generally a good thing, but not before making sure the alternative is not worse, and of course making sure that "disposable plastic", is not "throw it in nature plastic". We should also research better plastics: make sure the durable ones are actually durable, and that the disposable ones degrade properly, also consider the petrochemical industry that backs it up and maybe switch to more sustainable sources.

rTX5CMRXIfFG 3y ago
If you actually read the article before commenting: > The hazards of ingesting large pieces of plastic are pretty straightforward; they include choking and perforation of the intestinal tract. Animals that fill their guts with plastics eventually starve to death. The risks posed by microplastics are subtler, but not, Simon argues, any less serious. Plastics are made from by-products of oil and gas refining; many of the chemicals involved, such as benzene and vinyl chloride, are carcinogens. In addition to their main ingredients, plastics may contain any number of additives. Many of these—for example, polyfluoroalkyl substances, or PFASs, which confer water resistance—are also suspected carcinogens. Many of the others have never been adequately tested. Honestly it’s not surprising that scientists are worried about the harmful effects of plastics to human health because the introduction of many substances non-native to the human body brings about some kind of long-term illness as a negative reaction. Just because you can’t detect it with your senses and within a short time frame doesn’t mean that a phenomenon is not happening. People could really do more with questioning their opinions more than just jumping straight into availing of their freedom of speech.

EGreg 3y ago

It’s not just plastics. It’s how capitalism works around the world. I wrote about it two years ago: https://magarshak.com/blog/?p=362 https://magarshak.com/blog/?p=362 Back when I wrote it, I suspected the industry intentionally worked with government to distract the public, and now in this article it is confirmed: Under public pressure, a company like Coca-Cola or Nestlé pledges to insure that the packaging for its products gets recycled. When the pressure eases, it quietly abandons its pledge. Meanwhile, it lobbies against any kind of legislation that would restrict the sale of single-use plastics. Franklin-Wallis quotes Larry Thomas, the former president of the Society of the Plastics Industry, who once said, “If the public thinks recycling is working, then they are not going to be as concerned about the environment.”

myshpa 3y ago
How Big Oil Misled The Public Into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled https://www.npr.org/2020/09/11/897692090/how-big-oil-misled-the-public-into-believing-plastic-would-be-recycled https://www.npr.org/2020/09/11/897692090/how-big-oil-misled-... Even Greenpeace now admits the obvious: recycling doesn’t work https://www.city-journal.org/article/on-second-thought-just-throw-plastic-away https://www.city-journal.org/article/on-second-thought-just-... Europe’s circular economy is leaking https://www.investigate-europe.eu/en/2023/europes-circular-economy-is-leaking/ https://www.investigate-europe.eu/en/2023/europes-circular-e... How Big Oil is manipulating the way you think about climate change https://www.salon.com/2023/05/13/how-big-oil-is-manipulating-the-way-you-think-about-climate-change/ https://www.salon.com/2023/05/13/how-big-oil-is-manipulating... Chemical industry used big tobacco’s tactics to conceal evidence of PFAS risks https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jun/07/pfas-3m-dupont-chemical-industry-health-toxic-study https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jun/07/pfas-3m-... Companies Knew the Dangers of PFAS 'Forever Chemicals'—and Kept Them Secret https://time.com/6284266/pfas-forever-chemicals-manufacturers-kept-secret/ https://time.com/6284266/pfas-forever-chemicals-manufacturer... WHO's Proposed Limits on PFAS in Drinking Water Far Too Weak: Experts https://www.commondreams.org/news/who-pfas-drinking-water-proposal https://www.commondreams.org/news/who-pfas-drinking-water-pr... Rightwing war on ‘woke capitalism’ partly driven by fossil fuel interests and allies https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/22/rightwing-war-on-woke-capitalism-industry-interests https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/22/rightwing-wa... Outside the Safe Operating Space of a New Planetary Boundary for Per- and Polyfluoroalkyl Substances (PFAS) https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.2c02765 https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.2c02765 Documenting the Hidden History of Chemical and Pesticide Hazards in the United States https://www.poisonpapers.org/ https://www.poisonpapers.org/

hospitalJail 3y ago

The word 'Plastic' needs to die. Instead we should be more specific on the type of plastic. Teflon, PLA, ABS, resins, foams, etc... are all plastics, but they are so unrelated outside their long chains, its terrible to stereotype them all into one category. You aren't going to get cancer from PLA or Teflon, but rather the manufacturing process. You can eat these plastics as far as I know and you'd be fine. Eat something with BPA in it, you are probably going to have a bad time. Maybe the solution is better labeling. I know its near impossible to have perfect consistency in plastic manufacturing(I worked in foam, mind boggling we consider testing these foams one time, and considered it the same foam for the next 8 years). However, knowing precursors, additives, and potentially process would make a huge difference in our ability to track problems. EDIT: Someone called out PLA as potentially dangerous. After looking it up, I'm skeptical of the oxygen double bond attached to a carbon attached to an oxygen. The wikipedia article had no health concerns, but that carbon atom seems ripe for reaction. Let me change my answer on PLA to 'I don't know'.

myshpa 3y ago
Plastic overuse/overproduction needs to die. What Microplastics Might Be Doing to Our Intestines https://now.tufts.edu/2023/06/09/what-microplastics-might-be-doing-our-intestines https://now.tufts.edu/2023/06/09/what-microplastics-might-be... Nanoplastic Ingestion Causes Neurological Deficits https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/nanoplastic-ingestion-causes-neurological-deficits-71152 https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/nanoplastic-inges... Microplastics can stick in human airways, new study finds https://www.ctvnews.ca/climate-and-environment/microplastics-can-stick-in-human-airways-new-study-finds-1.6441541 https://www.ctvnews.ca/climate-and-environment/microplastics... Many BPA-Free Plastics Are Toxic. Some Are Worse Than BPA https://www.discovermagazine.com/health/many-bpa-free-plastics-are-toxic-some-are-worse-than-bpa https://www.discovermagazine.com/health/many-bpa-free-plasti... Plastic pollution is so bad for animals it now has a disease name — 'plasticosis' https://www.cbc.ca/radio/quirks/research-ocean-plastic-birds-plasticosis-1.6863788 https://www.cbc.ca/radio/quirks/research-ocean-plastic-birds... Microplastics found in every sample of water taken during the Ocean Race https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jun/05/microplastics-found-in-every-sample-of-water-taken-during-ocean-race https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jun/05/micropla... Secret industry documents reveal that makers of PFAS 'forever chemicals' covered up their health dangers https://phys.org/news/2023-05-secret-industry-documents-reveal-makers.html https://phys.org/news/2023-05-secret-industry-documents-reve... Forever Toxic: The science on health threats from plastic recycling https://www.greenpeace.org/usa/reports/forever-toxic/ https://www.greenpeace.org/usa/reports/forever-toxic/ Microplastics detected in meat, milk and blood of farm animals https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jul/08/microplastics-detected-in-meat-milk-and-blood-of-farm-animals https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jul/08/micropla... Yet Another Problem With Recycling: It Spews Microplastics https://www.wired.com/story/yet-another-problem-with-recycling-it-spews-microplastics/ https://www.wired.com/story/yet-another-problem-with-recycli... Tiny Polystyrene Particles Detected in the Brain Just Two Hours After Ingestion https://neurosciencenews.com/polystyrene-brain-23079/ https://neurosciencenews.com/polystyrene-brain-23079/ 60% of home ‘compostable’ plastic doesn’t fully break down, ending up in our soil https://blog.frontiersin.org/2022/11/03/60-of-home-compostable-plastic-doesnt-fully-break-down-ending-up-in-our-soil/ https://blog.frontiersin.org/2022/11/03/60-of-home-compostab... (... thousands others)

falloutx 3y ago

Remind me why should we save the environment/planet? At this point its owned by big corporations and governments, so it should be them who need to save it.

AnimalMuppet 3y ago
Because we live in it. I hope to be breathing tomorrow. Therefore I care about what we put in the air today. I hope to be eating next year. Therefore I care about what we put in the soil this year. I hope to be drinking next decade. Therefore I care about what goes into the groundwater this decade. What I eat, drink, and breathe becomes my body. If those things are garbage (or worse, poison), my health will suffer. [Edit: And to answer the actual thrust of your question, because the corporations aren't going to.] Corporations may "own" that stuff (I disagree, but let that pass). But my body is mine, and corporations aren't going to take care of it for me.
GivinStatic 3y ago
We don't. This planet will get along just fine, we humans on the other hand.. This planet has seen cataclysms, mass extinctions and destruction on planetary scale, it'll be fine. Not us.

defensem3ch 3y ago

it's cheap and easy to build a DIY infrared heat lamp sauna for detox so you can sweat out the bisphenols and phthalates!

somsak2 3y ago
source for you being able to "sweat out" plastics?

agumonkey 3y ago

Who here tried the Zero Waste lifestyle ? (from her https://duckduckgo.com/?q=zero+waste+bea+johnson&t=h_&ia=web https://duckduckgo.com/?q=zero+waste+bea+johnson&t=h_&ia=web)

hackernoteng 3y ago

Glad to see this is finally coming out in main stream media. Its been well known for decades among the so called "conspiracy theorists". Same thing with pesticide/herbicide being endocrine disrupting and cancer causing chemicals. Hopefully this type of thing start to get as much visibility and legislation as the so called "climate crisis" does.

elric 3y ago
I've never heard of anyone referring to this as a "conspiracy theory". The toxicity of many types of plastics has been common knowledge for a very long time. Same with pesticides/herbicides. This has been discussed in "main stream media" for years, probably decades. There have even been various legislative attempts to curb their usage or improve their safe disposal.
- jcutrell 3y ago
  There are definitely people who land squarely in conspiracy theory land for this. For example, those who avoid literally all plastic, and won’t eat something that touched even the most stable forms of plastic, despite having little to no evidence of leaching at whatever temperature their bottle of water is at.

mensetmanusman 3y ago

Sugar is probably poisoning us much more, but we probably won't care until we reach over 75% obesity rate.

rngname22 3y ago
Diet is only one part of life, and it's a lot easier to just choose foods lacking added sugar than it is to avoid plastic. Especially if you just only consume raw foods not processed ones. Plastic is in the products you use, the tech you use, the clothing you're marketed, the vehicles you use, the infrastructure you use, the logistics systems of the non-plastics goods you buy, the housewares you use, the house you live in, the infrastructure you rely on, it's harder to point to things that don't involve plastics than things that do.

aceazzameen 3y ago

Personally I think there needs to be more studies on all the plastics shedding from clothing. Maybe there is? But I usually see the focus on ingestion. We all inhale plastic microfibers every day. Is it worse then ingestion? Is it mostly inert? Or are we slowly degrading certain functions in our bodies?

jcutrell 3y ago

What is the best evidence out there for what behaviors, products etc are, at a personal level, more dangerous? For example, I have a Breville Precision coffeemaker. How much plastic is getting leached into my daily cup of coffee? Should I go back to manual pourovers? What is the real hazard I'm risking? How does this compare to other behaviors I may have? Are there other behaviors that I can moderate for high bang/buck ratio?

Oleksa_dr 3y ago

It all depends on global and legislative initiatives. Only restrictions on the production of plastic and cardboard (!!!) work. Personal initiatives are just romanticization and a philosophy that shifts the problem from the producer to the consumer (who has no choice). Metal is an alternative to many things. Plastic is only for containers and things with a long cycle of use. It has its advantages. It is more resistant to impact than metal (falls, bumps) and retains its shape. Glass is not an alternative at all, it is not comfortable, it breaks, leaves fragments that you will not find on the ground or in your body. It is not resistant to falls, shocks, frequent temperature changes (just pour hot into a cold cup, or vice versa). And it's not pleasant to the touch, with limited use where it really is the best choice. But this is not a problem in itself, we need to localize food production more so that it doesn't have to be stored for a long time and therefore use a lot of packaging. We need it to travel quickly from the producer to the store to the consumer, without plastic packaging as much as possible. Over the past 4 years, I have been horrified to see that the amount of plastic waste I generate has increased dramatically, without changing my consumption and habits.

goeiedaggoeie 3y ago
>>Only restrictions on the production of plastic and cardboard (!!!) work. Agreed. we need to price in the externalities into the cost of manufacturing, else it will always be a tragedy of the commons
Tagbert 3y ago
Why do you want to restrict cardboard production? It is one of the best alternatives to plastic for many purposes.

1970-01-01 3y ago

Realize we literally cannot stop making plastic. If we did, modern civilization would collapse. All PCBs and electric devices have some type of plastic in them, including wires and plugs. The only way to read this comment is via plastic.

alostpuppy 3y ago
I always think of modern medicine and how much plastic is involved there.
peanuty1 3y ago
We could make a lot less without collapsing modern civilization though.
VerminOctopus1 3y ago
Plastics are incredibly useful and enable modern society as you correctly point out. In an ideal world, governments would at least phase out single use plastics.

hejcloud 3y ago

In Germany, they introduced a system called "Grüner Punkt" (~green dot) in the 90s which was supposed to teach consumers how to separate different kinds of trash to be able to recycle the packaging plastic. Now about 30 years later, the Germans are eager to sort their trash but the recycling quote is still laughably low. Less than 20% of sorted trash gets recycled for usage in plastic (and instead just burned, reusing the thermal energy) and people still have ridiculous habits (e.g. wrapping Bananas with plastic bags). What we see is: It's all damn industry lies, one part of politicians susceptible for industry lobbying, the other part of politicians antagonized for "limiting consumer freedom", a lot of green-/whitewashing campaigns and consumers who refuse to change their habits. Do you see a pattern?

mistrial9 3y ago
GreenDot implementation as a business case for recycling economics was examined here in California when the Electronics Recycling was in formation. There were some structural problems with the way that money moved through the system, the product categories, the marking system and the handling systems. Improvements are possible, and the obstacles in the GreenDot system are real. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Electronic_Waste_Recycling_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Electronic_Waste_Re...

ghostDancer 3y ago

We are poisoning ourselves in the name of economic growth would be more correct. But in HN the debate is about if plastic is a correct word and what term should be used and labeling, a place where everybody knows that the majority of people don't read labels, instructions or manuals.

padjo 3y ago

I wonder if all our plastic waste will ultimately leave a geological record. Will far future organisms call this the plasticene?

ArunRaja 3y ago

> Among the many creatures being done in by all this junk are corals, tortoises, and elephants Other creatures include Snake, whale, crocodile, giraffe, cow, dog, crab, sea lion. Twitter thread with images: https://twitter.com/aadhi_reach/status/1264109645125189632?t=ab3WXCnzSo5-2xLmkppzFg&s=19 https://twitter.com/aadhi_reach/status/1264109645125189632?t...

DavideNL 3y ago

Related: the "Beat The Micro Bead" app, to scan products to see if it contains microplastics. https://www.beatthemicrobead.org/download-btmb-app/ https://www.beatthemicrobead.org/download-btmb-app/