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I wonder how the switch to electric is going to impact Ford dealers? From what I've read they need to (re)train their mechanics and buy a bunch of new equipment

I wonder how the switch to electric is going to impact Ford dealers? From what I've read they need to (re)train their mechanics and buy a bunch of new equipment and then also deal with the fact that electric vehicles require less maintenance.

JimtheCoder 3y ago
Well, I'm sure all of those massive dealer markups from the pandemic and ensuing vehicle shortage needed to go somewhere, right?
toomuchtodo 3y ago
https://electrek.co/2023/01/27/ford-considering-changes-ev-dealer-program/ https://electrek.co/2023/01/27/ford-considering-changes-ev-d... https://cleantechnica.com/2023/03/22/some-ford-dealers-withdraw-from-electric-car-sales-program/ https://cleantechnica.com/2023/03/22/some-ford-dealers-withd... https://insideevs.com/news/610114/ford-modele-dealership-rules/ https://insideevs.com/news/610114/ford-modele-dealership-rul...
burnished 3y ago
Well, their primary income seems to come from deceiving people, I'm sure they'll either invent new forms of 'maintenance' work or grossly exaggerate the required frequency of some other task.
- statusqueue 3y ago
  The majority of their revenue actually comes from the service department.
  - tired_star_nrg 3y ago
    Isn’t that what the comment you replied to is saying?
  - burnished 3y ago
    Correct.
esotericimpl 3y ago
[dead]
Mizoguchi 3y ago
Dealers will slowly fade away as online car shopping becomes more common. Volvo for example is aiming at 2030 as the year they turn 100% online. It's reasonable to assume all other car makers will do the same. There's absolutely no reason to buy from a dealer in today's world, that's like when in the 80s and early 90s you needed a middleman to buy a computer.
- ruffrey 3y ago
  How do you test drive a car for an online dealer? Do they drive to your home and let you take it for a spin?
  - ohthatsnotright 3y ago
    In your Apple Vision Pro of course.
  - TedDoesntTalk 3y ago
    A showroom can exist and not be an independently-owned dealership. In fact such showrooms could stock multiple brands, like any other brick-and-mortar store we frequent.
  - vel0city 3y ago
    If they follow the Tesla/Rivian/Lucid model they'd have "galleries" which might have a few cars on hand to show off, see paint and fabric samples, hopefully have someone knowledgeable on hand to answer questions, and test drive but you then go place an order for a new one. There are a few Tesla galleries near me despite not being legal to be sold in my state.
    - Sohcahtoa82 3y ago
      Yup. This model makes so much more sense than needing dealerships with hundreds of cars filling a massive parking lot. You could have a showroom with a couple of your best looking models, then outside just have one of each model ready for a test drive. You decide you like one? You place an order and have it there in a couple weeks.
m463 3y ago
I keep on reading that electric vehicles require less maintenance, but they still require some maintenance, and lots of things continue to break. how much maintenance does a honda ice car really require? Most of them run flawlessly for years and years, almost without opening the hood at all. I wonder how the numbers break down?
- soperj 3y ago
  You seriously don't change the oil?
  - delfinom 3y ago
    I change out my Honda's oil once a year (10k miles per year), so what, $60? Heh, in my case, I would go bankrupt owning a EV because of tires. My god roads are so fucking bad in NYS that I replaced 3 tires this year alone due to massive gashes in the sidewalls. EVs being so fucking overweight do not have cheap tires, RIP.
    - m463 3y ago
      also in my experience tesla has terrible inside edge tire wear.
  - starttoaster 3y ago
    I could be mistaken, but I think they're mostly not counting a procedure that basically amounts to loosening up a bolt that makes oil come out the bottom, tightening it back up again, and then adding new oil from the top side. I think the kind of maintenance they're thinking of is more like "replace the serpentine belt."
    - pengaru 3y ago
      Timing belt is a big one for ICEs, valve adjustment if it's something racy. There's also just so many moving parts there's far more opportunity for engine failures, especially in the face of neglect/deferred maintenance. I don't think there's an EV equivalent for needing an engine rebuild/replace because you ignored the timing belt for too long on an interference motor. It's worse on newer ICEs that have to meet modern fuel economy and emissions standards too. Very high compression-ratios have become commonplace, making the consequences for neglect much more severe. You'd be hard-pressed to find a non-interference design in something modern. And turbo motors are much harder on their oil... Newer ICEs are tantamount to yesteryears high-strung race engines, too bad the chassis are so heavy.
grugagag 3y ago
Maybe the whole dealership ‘model’ is to change too?
- anjel 3y ago
  GM has no love lost on its dealer networks, just constant litigation costs. Dealerships are middle men, and like all middlemen, you make money holding your ground by force.
stcroixx 3y ago
In my circles, dealers would always be the absolute last resort option for having any maintenance done due to their reputation of inflating prices and doing crappy work. Not sure if EV manufacturers are attempting to force consumers to have all their work done by dealers. If so, I’ll keep waiting.
- londons_explore 3y ago
  Dealers typically get a monopoly on software fixes/firmware updates. In EV's, more and more issues will be fixed by reconfiguring/patching software. I would guess that over time, car software will get more and more locked down - even today, real cryptography is typically used to stop you flashing new firmware onto your ECU. Those checks are only going to get tighter. There are no opensource ECU's. Therefore, I don't see the dealer going anywhere. But they might get rid of the workshop and replace it with desks of people able to hit buttons on a computer...
  - asynchronous 3y ago
    The funny thing is there’s nothing inherently more digital about an EV that requires over the air updates. Tesla just simply proved out that the model works so all EV makers have been following suit.
    - londons_explore 3y ago
      Over the air updates pay for themselves immediately if there is a recall that can be fixed with software. And thats ignoring any other possible benefits for the user, like upgraded features or bugfixes post-sale.
- sokoloff 3y ago
  I’ve had a Nissan LEAF for 8.5 years. Everything the Nissan dealer has done has been free (service bulletins and a warranty repair [maybe a second for airbag, I forget). Everything else has been an easy DIY, meaning a corner/independent mechanic could have done it just as easily.
- 3y ago
cityofdelusion 3y ago
I'm not sure much changes. High voltage systems are fairly complex and basically impossible to work on at home in a safe manner. This will direct pretty much all repairs that require disabling the high voltage system to mechanics / dealerships. We have a living example of this sort of transition with GM and their Volt / Bolt. Mechanics working on EVs today have be specially trained on high voltage procedures, which are fairly cumbersome in the shop to perform. Even things that seem simple, like the heat pump, end up with a fair amount of complexity due to stuff like special procedures, special oils, more valves with addition of a battery loop, etc. Dealerships do lose the oil change up-sell loop, but my gut feeling is they can make up the cost with big margins on high-voltage repairs. Check out the workshop service manuals for some existing EVs today -- its staggering how much more complex a battery cell replacement is compared to say, an ICE engine swap. Dealer prices on these two procedures are priced accordingly, with procedures that involve HV components regularly costing more than the depreciated value of the EV itself! The Toyota Prius seems to be the first and last model with any kind of easy repair kept in mind for high-voltage components on cars.

JimtheCoder 3y ago

Well, I'm sure all of those massive dealer markups from the pandemic and ensuing vehicle shortage needed to go somewhere, right?

toomuchtodo 3y ago

https://electrek.co/2023/01/27/ford-considering-changes-ev-dealer-program/ https://electrek.co/2023/01/27/ford-considering-changes-ev-d... https://cleantechnica.com/2023/03/22/some-ford-dealers-withdraw-from-electric-car-sales-program/ https://cleantechnica.com/2023/03/22/some-ford-dealers-withd... https://insideevs.com/news/610114/ford-modele-dealership-rules/ https://insideevs.com/news/610114/ford-modele-dealership-rul...

burnished 3y ago

Well, their primary income seems to come from deceiving people, I'm sure they'll either invent new forms of 'maintenance' work or grossly exaggerate the required frequency of some other task.

statusqueue 3y ago
The majority of their revenue actually comes from the service department.
- tired_star_nrg 3y ago
  Isn’t that what the comment you replied to is saying?
- burnished 3y ago
  Correct.

esotericimpl 3y ago

[dead]

Mizoguchi 3y ago

Dealers will slowly fade away as online car shopping becomes more common. Volvo for example is aiming at 2030 as the year they turn 100% online. It's reasonable to assume all other car makers will do the same. There's absolutely no reason to buy from a dealer in today's world, that's like when in the 80s and early 90s you needed a middleman to buy a computer.

ruffrey 3y ago
How do you test drive a car for an online dealer? Do they drive to your home and let you take it for a spin?
- ohthatsnotright 3y ago
  In your Apple Vision Pro of course.
- TedDoesntTalk 3y ago
  A showroom can exist and not be an independently-owned dealership. In fact such showrooms could stock multiple brands, like any other brick-and-mortar store we frequent.
- vel0city 3y ago
  If they follow the Tesla/Rivian/Lucid model they'd have "galleries" which might have a few cars on hand to show off, see paint and fabric samples, hopefully have someone knowledgeable on hand to answer questions, and test drive but you then go place an order for a new one. There are a few Tesla galleries near me despite not being legal to be sold in my state.
  - Sohcahtoa82 3y ago
    Yup. This model makes so much more sense than needing dealerships with hundreds of cars filling a massive parking lot. You could have a showroom with a couple of your best looking models, then outside just have one of each model ready for a test drive. You decide you like one? You place an order and have it there in a couple weeks.

m463 3y ago

I keep on reading that electric vehicles require less maintenance, but they still require some maintenance, and lots of things continue to break. how much maintenance does a honda ice car really require? Most of them run flawlessly for years and years, almost without opening the hood at all. I wonder how the numbers break down?

soperj 3y ago
You seriously don't change the oil?
- delfinom 3y ago
  I change out my Honda's oil once a year (10k miles per year), so what, $60? Heh, in my case, I would go bankrupt owning a EV because of tires. My god roads are so fucking bad in NYS that I replaced 3 tires this year alone due to massive gashes in the sidewalls. EVs being so fucking overweight do not have cheap tires, RIP.
  - m463 3y ago
    also in my experience tesla has terrible inside edge tire wear.
- starttoaster 3y ago
  I could be mistaken, but I think they're mostly not counting a procedure that basically amounts to loosening up a bolt that makes oil come out the bottom, tightening it back up again, and then adding new oil from the top side. I think the kind of maintenance they're thinking of is more like "replace the serpentine belt."
  - pengaru 3y ago
    Timing belt is a big one for ICEs, valve adjustment if it's something racy. There's also just so many moving parts there's far more opportunity for engine failures, especially in the face of neglect/deferred maintenance. I don't think there's an EV equivalent for needing an engine rebuild/replace because you ignored the timing belt for too long on an interference motor. It's worse on newer ICEs that have to meet modern fuel economy and emissions standards too. Very high compression-ratios have become commonplace, making the consequences for neglect much more severe. You'd be hard-pressed to find a non-interference design in something modern. And turbo motors are much harder on their oil... Newer ICEs are tantamount to yesteryears high-strung race engines, too bad the chassis are so heavy.

grugagag 3y ago

Maybe the whole dealership ‘model’ is to change too?

anjel 3y ago
GM has no love lost on its dealer networks, just constant litigation costs. Dealerships are middle men, and like all middlemen, you make money holding your ground by force.

stcroixx 3y ago

In my circles, dealers would always be the absolute last resort option for having any maintenance done due to their reputation of inflating prices and doing crappy work. Not sure if EV manufacturers are attempting to force consumers to have all their work done by dealers. If so, I’ll keep waiting.

londons_explore 3y ago
Dealers typically get a monopoly on software fixes/firmware updates. In EV's, more and more issues will be fixed by reconfiguring/patching software. I would guess that over time, car software will get more and more locked down - even today, real cryptography is typically used to stop you flashing new firmware onto your ECU. Those checks are only going to get tighter. There are no opensource ECU's. Therefore, I don't see the dealer going anywhere. But they might get rid of the workshop and replace it with desks of people able to hit buttons on a computer...
- asynchronous 3y ago
  The funny thing is there’s nothing inherently more digital about an EV that requires over the air updates. Tesla just simply proved out that the model works so all EV makers have been following suit.
  - londons_explore 3y ago
    Over the air updates pay for themselves immediately if there is a recall that can be fixed with software. And thats ignoring any other possible benefits for the user, like upgraded features or bugfixes post-sale.
sokoloff 3y ago
I’ve had a Nissan LEAF for 8.5 years. Everything the Nissan dealer has done has been free (service bulletins and a warranty repair [maybe a second for airbag, I forget). Everything else has been an easy DIY, meaning a corner/independent mechanic could have done it just as easily.
3y ago

cityofdelusion 3y ago

I'm not sure much changes. High voltage systems are fairly complex and basically impossible to work on at home in a safe manner. This will direct pretty much all repairs that require disabling the high voltage system to mechanics / dealerships. We have a living example of this sort of transition with GM and their Volt / Bolt. Mechanics working on EVs today have be specially trained on high voltage procedures, which are fairly cumbersome in the shop to perform. Even things that seem simple, like the heat pump, end up with a fair amount of complexity due to stuff like special procedures, special oils, more valves with addition of a battery loop, etc. Dealerships do lose the oil change up-sell loop, but my gut feeling is they can make up the cost with big margins on high-voltage repairs. Check out the workshop service manuals for some existing EVs today -- its staggering how much more complex a battery cell replacement is compared to say, an ICE engine swap. Dealer prices on these two procedures are priced accordingly, with procedures that involve HV components regularly costing more than the depreciated value of the EV itself! The Toyota Prius seems to be the first and last model with any kind of easy repair kept in mind for high-voltage components on cars.