9 ms·

Ford to lay off workers as it focuses on electric vehicles

55 points by sizzle 3y ago

BugsJustFindMe 3y ago
They're laying off workers whose skillsets are specific to making vehicles with combustion engines and hiring workers specific to making vehicles with electric motors.
- criddell 3y ago
  I wonder how the switch to electric is going to impact Ford dealers? From what I've read they need to (re)train their mechanics and buy a bunch of new equipment and then also deal with the fact that electric vehicles require less maintenance.
  - JimtheCoder 3y ago
    Well, I'm sure all of those massive dealer markups from the pandemic and ensuing vehicle shortage needed to go somewhere, right?
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    https://electrek.co/2023/01/27/ford-considering-changes-ev-dealer-program/ https://electrek.co/2023/01/27/ford-considering-changes-ev-d... https://cleantechnica.com/2023/03/22/some-ford-dealers-withdraw-from-electric-car-sales-program/ https://cleantechnica.com/2023/03/22/some-ford-dealers-withd... https://insideevs.com/news/610114/ford-modele-dealership-rules/ https://insideevs.com/news/610114/ford-modele-dealership-rul...
  - burnished 3y ago
    Well, their primary income seems to come from deceiving people, I'm sure they'll either invent new forms of 'maintenance' work or grossly exaggerate the required frequency of some other task.
    - statusqueue 3y ago
      The majority of their revenue actually comes from the service department.
      - tired_star_nrg 3y ago
        Isn’t that what the comment you replied to is saying?
      - burnished 3y ago
        Correct.
  - esotericimpl 3y ago
    [dead]
  - Mizoguchi 3y ago
    Dealers will slowly fade away as online car shopping becomes more common. Volvo for example is aiming at 2030 as the year they turn 100% online. It's reasonable to assume all other car makers will do the same. There's absolutely no reason to buy from a dealer in today's world, that's like when in the 80s and early 90s you needed a middleman to buy a computer.
    - ruffrey 3y ago
      How do you test drive a car for an online dealer? Do they drive to your home and let you take it for a spin?
      - ohthatsnotright 3y ago
        In your Apple Vision Pro of course.
      - TedDoesntTalk 3y ago
        A showroom can exist and not be an independently-owned dealership. In fact such showrooms could stock multiple brands, like any other brick-and-mortar store we frequent.
      - vel0city 3y ago
        If they follow the Tesla/Rivian/Lucid model they'd have "galleries" which might have a few cars on hand to show off, see paint and fabric samples, hopefully have someone knowledgeable on hand to answer questions, and test drive but you then go place an order for a new one. There are a few Tesla galleries near me despite not being legal to be sold in my state.
        Sohcahtoa82 3y ago
        Yup. This model makes so much more sense than needing dealerships with hundreds of cars filling a massive parking lot. You could have a showroom with a couple of your best looking models, then outside just have one of each model ready for a test drive. You decide you like one? You place an order and have it there in a couple weeks.
  - m463 3y ago
    I keep on reading that electric vehicles require less maintenance, but they still require some maintenance, and lots of things continue to break. how much maintenance does a honda ice car really require? Most of them run flawlessly for years and years, almost without opening the hood at all. I wonder how the numbers break down?
    - soperj 3y ago
      You seriously don't change the oil?
      - delfinom 3y ago
        I change out my Honda's oil once a year (10k miles per year), so what, $60? Heh, in my case, I would go bankrupt owning a EV because of tires. My god roads are so fucking bad in NYS that I replaced 3 tires this year alone due to massive gashes in the sidewalls. EVs being so fucking overweight do not have cheap tires, RIP.
        m463 3y ago
        also in my experience tesla has terrible inside edge tire wear.
      - starttoaster 3y ago
        I could be mistaken, but I think they're mostly not counting a procedure that basically amounts to loosening up a bolt that makes oil come out the bottom, tightening it back up again, and then adding new oil from the top side. I think the kind of maintenance they're thinking of is more like "replace the serpentine belt."
        pengaru 3y ago
        Timing belt is a big one for ICEs, valve adjustment if it's something racy. There's also just so many moving parts there's far more opportunity for engine failures, especially in the face of neglect/deferred maintenance. I don't think there's an EV equivalent for needing an engine rebuild/replace because you ignored the timing belt for too long on an interference motor. It's worse on newer ICEs that have to meet modern fuel economy and emissions standards too. Very high compression-ratios have become commonplace, making the consequences for neglect much more severe. You'd be hard-pressed to find a non-interference design in something modern. And turbo motors are much harder on their oil... Newer ICEs are tantamount to yesteryears high-strung race engines, too bad the chassis are so heavy.
  - grugagag 3y ago
    Maybe the whole dealership ‘model’ is to change too?
    - anjel 3y ago
      GM has no love lost on its dealer networks, just constant litigation costs. Dealerships are middle men, and like all middlemen, you make money holding your ground by force.
  - stcroixx 3y ago
    In my circles, dealers would always be the absolute last resort option for having any maintenance done due to their reputation of inflating prices and doing crappy work. Not sure if EV manufacturers are attempting to force consumers to have all their work done by dealers. If so, I’ll keep waiting.
    - londons_explore 3y ago
      Dealers typically get a monopoly on software fixes/firmware updates. In EV's, more and more issues will be fixed by reconfiguring/patching software. I would guess that over time, car software will get more and more locked down - even today, real cryptography is typically used to stop you flashing new firmware onto your ECU. Those checks are only going to get tighter. There are no opensource ECU's. Therefore, I don't see the dealer going anywhere. But they might get rid of the workshop and replace it with desks of people able to hit buttons on a computer...
      - asynchronous 3y ago
        The funny thing is there’s nothing inherently more digital about an EV that requires over the air updates. Tesla just simply proved out that the model works so all EV makers have been following suit.
        londons_explore 3y ago
        Over the air updates pay for themselves immediately if there is a recall that can be fixed with software. And thats ignoring any other possible benefits for the user, like upgraded features or bugfixes post-sale.
    - sokoloff 3y ago
      I’ve had a Nissan LEAF for 8.5 years. Everything the Nissan dealer has done has been free (service bulletins and a warranty repair [maybe a second for airbag, I forget). Everything else has been an easy DIY, meaning a corner/independent mechanic could have done it just as easily.
    - 3y ago
  - cityofdelusion 3y ago
    I'm not sure much changes. High voltage systems are fairly complex and basically impossible to work on at home in a safe manner. This will direct pretty much all repairs that require disabling the high voltage system to mechanics / dealerships. We have a living example of this sort of transition with GM and their Volt / Bolt. Mechanics working on EVs today have be specially trained on high voltage procedures, which are fairly cumbersome in the shop to perform. Even things that seem simple, like the heat pump, end up with a fair amount of complexity due to stuff like special procedures, special oils, more valves with addition of a battery loop, etc. Dealerships do lose the oil change up-sell loop, but my gut feeling is they can make up the cost with big margins on high-voltage repairs. Check out the workshop service manuals for some existing EVs today -- its staggering how much more complex a battery cell replacement is compared to say, an ICE engine swap. Dealer prices on these two procedures are priced accordingly, with procedures that involve HV components regularly costing more than the depreciated value of the EV itself! The Toyota Prius seems to be the first and last model with any kind of easy repair kept in mind for high-voltage components on cars.
- JimtheCoder 3y ago
  Sometimes, I wish headlines would be a bit more specific. "Workers" to me implies assembly line workers, whereas the actual layoffs are mostly engineers. I have never really heard anyone call engineers, "Workers"...
  - lolinder 3y ago
    > Google parent to lay off 12,000 workers https://nypost.com/2023/01/20/google-parent-alphabet-to-lay-off-12000-workers/ https://nypost.com/2023/01/20/google-parent-alphabet-to-lay-... > Microsoft laid off another 689 workers from its Seattle-area offices Monday https://www.seattletimes.com/business/microsoft-cuts-another-689-seattle-area-jobs-amid-cost-reductions/ https://www.seattletimes.com/business/microsoft-cuts-another... > Meta to Lay Off Another 10,000 Workers https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/14/technology/meta-facebook-layoffs.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/14/technology/meta-facebook-...
  - wccrawford 3y ago
    "Workers" doesn't even mean non-managers any more... It's just all employees. The word has lost a lot of nuance.
- gonzo41 3y ago
  It's sad that they don't have some sort of retraining for these people.
  - throwaway894345 3y ago
    I'm guessing it's mostly people with deep specialization (and interest) in combustion drive trains (e.g., engineers). I don't think it's feasible to take a combustion drive train engineer with a decade of experience and make them reasonably productive as a battery engineer in a short timeframe. No doubt many of those engineers are capable of making the pivot, but most are likely not particularly interested.
  - hgs3 3y ago
    I assume it's cheaper to hire new employees at base pay than pay to retrain the seasoned employees.
  - jupp0r 3y ago
    > Ford has previously said it is also hiring in some areas, so it’s not clear if these layoffs will result in an overall reduction in Ford’s workforce in the United States or Canada. This might mean that they are eliminating positions, but are possibly filling new ones with the laid off employees where appropriate.
- cubefox 3y ago
  The thing is: Combustion motors are amazingly complex and highly optimized beasts, while electric motors are dead simple. There isn't much to improve. So there are not many people working on electric motors.
  - sundvor 3y ago
    Nor servicing them, further down the line.
    - throwaway5959 3y ago
      That’s a feature for the end customer, not a bug. I honestly think it’s the biggest reason Toyota is so anti-EV. It’s a lot easier to make a reliable EV than an ICE car.
      - sundvor 3y ago
        Yep, very much so. I intended it as such! (Expanded version: "Nor will there be much demand for people servicing the electric motors in after sales"). My first service after getting an EV was for tyre rotation, an air cabin filter and retrofitting a Pedestrian Warning System that wasn't available in Australia when I bought the car - 15 months into the ownership! Sure the cars are more expensive up front, but you're saving a bucket down the line. (I intend to have mine for 15 years or so.) Toyota is actively blocking moves to improve fuel quality standards in Australia, as an honourable mention (for the hall of shame). I'm absolutely disgusted by their behaviour.
  - stcredzero 3y ago
    electric motors are dead simple. There isn't much to improve. But the entire system of the vehicle, and the way we use vehicles, and the way those form factors affect society and people's lives are very, very complex. So basically, the shift in technology is going to enable changes and improvements in all of those ways. Also, look at what Tesla, Lucid, and even Volkswagen have been able to achieve in terms of innovations just to date. Tesla has found ways to let electric motors spin faster, drive vehicles more efficiently, get built cheaper, and without rare earths. Lucid has Tesla beat in terms of comparable capacity in smaller packaging. Even Volkswagen has impressed Munroe and associates with some of their design around motors. I'd bet you can find people mistakenly saying, "there isn't much to improve," in internal combustion engines over their long history. Even now, this isn't correct. I suspect 21st century innovation in vehicles is just beginning!
olivermarks 3y ago
Ford is bleeding to death on purpose so they can get more tax payer EV subsidies https://youtu.be/5MZeTeqdsTw https://youtu.be/5MZeTeqdsTw
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  I wouldn't say it's on purpose. Ford has always been a marginal (financially) automaker, and while the US gov is providing substantial support (>$10B) via battery and vehicle subsidies, it will be a painful transition based on the financials and balance sheet. Too much financial and institutional debt considering the swiftness at which they must transform. Tesla has a lot of room in their margin (and also generous subsidies due to US component content) to eat price reductions due to rising interest rates, Ford does not while also trying to retool their entire manufacturing supply chain. TLDR Efficient, nimble innovators can kick the can, laggard incumbents cannot.
  - jdsully 3y ago
    Ford Credit (loans to purchasers of their vehicles) is on Ford's balance sheet while the others had to spin off those businesses in '08. So the debt situation is a bit misleading if you just compare the top level numbers to industry peers.
    - toomuchtodo 3y ago
      Ford Credit is what sells Ford vehicles, but it’s also where the profit is (roughly half of profits). Take away the credit biz, and that’s a material impact to both profits and volume. As the below article notes, it’s a balance and pushing risk around. https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/ford/2020/02/03/fords-lending-arm-generating-profit-ever/41133523/ https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/ford/2020/0...
      - jemmyw 3y ago
        Does that mean if you buy a vehicle outright all those folks buying on credit are subsidising you?
gobins 3y ago
It's interesting that while other companies are doubling down on electric vehicles, Toyota has come out and said the opposite after being one of the first companies to start.
- bigyikes 3y ago
  Electric cars becoming dominant seems like an inevitability to me, and it looks like many auto makers agree. It’s “just” a matter of battery costs, battery density, energy costs, and volume. What does Toyota see that we’re missing? I ask this as someone who just bought an ICE vehicle, but only because there were no electric vehicles in my market segment.
  - GiorgioG 3y ago
    As someone who isn't sold on EVs (as they exist today), I just don't how EVs will wind up being better economically. Energy costs will wind up going up as demand on the grid strains our infrastructure's ability to supply enough electricity as most folks switches over to EVs. Worse, costs for all electricity (home, industry, etc) will go up as demand surges. My ICE vehicle won't lose range like an EV's will over time. Nor, will it need an expensive battery to be replaced. From a practical perspective, I can store 100+ miles of range in a $30 plastic container that I can store in the yard. If there's an extended power outage and I have an EV - I have to wait for the grid to come back up in order to drive my EV. Backup home batteries are still very expensive. Even at half their current prices they're prohibitive (compared to say an emergency gas generator). Will these problems be solved? Probably, just not in the next few years. My wife just got a new car and we chose an ICE. I will probably replace my 2016 ICE vehicle in the next 5-10 years and I think I'll wind up with another ICE.
    - panick21_ 3y ago
      > Energy costs will wind up going up Will still be cheaper then gas. Total cost of living will still be less. > Nor, will it need an expensive battery to be replaced. Overall live-cycle cost are already higher. And many batteries can go for a very, very long time. Even if you reach the 80% mark, they can often continue after that. Many EV batters survive the car and then go on to do other stuff for a long time. And those were first generation packs. > I can store 100+ miles of range in a $30 plastic container that I can store in the yard Something 99% of people have never done.
scop 3y ago
I was speaking with the owner of an auto shop a few months back and he made an interesting point I hadn’t heard re Ford: whereas Tesla is eating new customers, Ford and other legacy automakers are having to eat their own customers…which can lead to some serious business complexity!
- SamuelAdams 3y ago
  In the business world we call this cannibalizing sales. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannibalization_(marketing)?wprov=sfti1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannibalization_(marketing)?wp...
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- CharlesW 3y ago
  The Innovator's Dilemma is a classic book on this, well worth a read: https://claytonchristensen.com/books/the-innovators-dilemma/ https://claytonchristensen.com/books/the-innovators-dilemma/
- jandrese 3y ago
  Yep, and there is always a business case for trying to suppress/ignore the new technology and stick with what you know and what has been profitable for many years. This is how once mighty businesses fail. Look at Sears, who was Amazon before anybody knew what the Internet was, but then the Internet appeared and they couldn't move on because they had invested too much in their old business model. Moving a catalog mail order business online should be an incredibly easy transition, but decade after decade they dawdled until it was too late because it would have hurt the stores and the quarterly profits.
klipklop 3y ago
Likely a ploy to lay off more expensive older workers in favor of newer younger/cheaper ones. I can imagine them saying, "It has nothing to do with their age, we just need 'EV experience.'" Give me a break. The idea that auto maker employees can't adapt to building EV's is pretty absurd. Interesting that upper management/execs are not being tossed out as well. You would assume they would be the group with the most outdated knowledge in a changing market. I know this did happen with Toyota, but you don't hear much with the likes of Ford. They seem as backwards as ever when it comes to selling cars.

55 points by sizzle 3y ago

They're laying off workers whose skillsets are specific to making vehicles with combustion engines and hiring workers specific to making vehicles with electric motors.

criddell 3y ago
I wonder how the switch to electric is going to impact Ford dealers? From what I've read they need to (re)train their mechanics and buy a bunch of new equipment and then also deal with the fact that electric vehicles require less maintenance.
- JimtheCoder 3y ago
  Well, I'm sure all of those massive dealer markups from the pandemic and ensuing vehicle shortage needed to go somewhere, right?
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  https://electrek.co/2023/01/27/ford-considering-changes-ev-dealer-program/ https://electrek.co/2023/01/27/ford-considering-changes-ev-d... https://cleantechnica.com/2023/03/22/some-ford-dealers-withdraw-from-electric-car-sales-program/ https://cleantechnica.com/2023/03/22/some-ford-dealers-withd... https://insideevs.com/news/610114/ford-modele-dealership-rules/ https://insideevs.com/news/610114/ford-modele-dealership-rul...
- burnished 3y ago
  Well, their primary income seems to come from deceiving people, I'm sure they'll either invent new forms of 'maintenance' work or grossly exaggerate the required frequency of some other task.
  - statusqueue 3y ago
    The majority of their revenue actually comes from the service department.
    - tired_star_nrg 3y ago
      Isn’t that what the comment you replied to is saying?
    - burnished 3y ago
      Correct.
- esotericimpl 3y ago
  [dead]
- Mizoguchi 3y ago
  Dealers will slowly fade away as online car shopping becomes more common. Volvo for example is aiming at 2030 as the year they turn 100% online. It's reasonable to assume all other car makers will do the same. There's absolutely no reason to buy from a dealer in today's world, that's like when in the 80s and early 90s you needed a middleman to buy a computer.
  - ruffrey 3y ago
    How do you test drive a car for an online dealer? Do they drive to your home and let you take it for a spin?
    - ohthatsnotright 3y ago
      In your Apple Vision Pro of course.
    - TedDoesntTalk 3y ago
      A showroom can exist and not be an independently-owned dealership. In fact such showrooms could stock multiple brands, like any other brick-and-mortar store we frequent.
    - vel0city 3y ago
      If they follow the Tesla/Rivian/Lucid model they'd have "galleries" which might have a few cars on hand to show off, see paint and fabric samples, hopefully have someone knowledgeable on hand to answer questions, and test drive but you then go place an order for a new one. There are a few Tesla galleries near me despite not being legal to be sold in my state.
      - Sohcahtoa82 3y ago
        Yup. This model makes so much more sense than needing dealerships with hundreds of cars filling a massive parking lot. You could have a showroom with a couple of your best looking models, then outside just have one of each model ready for a test drive. You decide you like one? You place an order and have it there in a couple weeks.
- m463 3y ago
  I keep on reading that electric vehicles require less maintenance, but they still require some maintenance, and lots of things continue to break. how much maintenance does a honda ice car really require? Most of them run flawlessly for years and years, almost without opening the hood at all. I wonder how the numbers break down?
  - soperj 3y ago
    You seriously don't change the oil?
    - delfinom 3y ago
      I change out my Honda's oil once a year (10k miles per year), so what, $60? Heh, in my case, I would go bankrupt owning a EV because of tires. My god roads are so fucking bad in NYS that I replaced 3 tires this year alone due to massive gashes in the sidewalls. EVs being so fucking overweight do not have cheap tires, RIP.
      - m463 3y ago
        also in my experience tesla has terrible inside edge tire wear.
    - starttoaster 3y ago
      I could be mistaken, but I think they're mostly not counting a procedure that basically amounts to loosening up a bolt that makes oil come out the bottom, tightening it back up again, and then adding new oil from the top side. I think the kind of maintenance they're thinking of is more like "replace the serpentine belt."
      - pengaru 3y ago
        Timing belt is a big one for ICEs, valve adjustment if it's something racy. There's also just so many moving parts there's far more opportunity for engine failures, especially in the face of neglect/deferred maintenance. I don't think there's an EV equivalent for needing an engine rebuild/replace because you ignored the timing belt for too long on an interference motor. It's worse on newer ICEs that have to meet modern fuel economy and emissions standards too. Very high compression-ratios have become commonplace, making the consequences for neglect much more severe. You'd be hard-pressed to find a non-interference design in something modern. And turbo motors are much harder on their oil... Newer ICEs are tantamount to yesteryears high-strung race engines, too bad the chassis are so heavy.
- grugagag 3y ago
  Maybe the whole dealership ‘model’ is to change too?
  - anjel 3y ago
    GM has no love lost on its dealer networks, just constant litigation costs. Dealerships are middle men, and like all middlemen, you make money holding your ground by force.
- stcroixx 3y ago
  In my circles, dealers would always be the absolute last resort option for having any maintenance done due to their reputation of inflating prices and doing crappy work. Not sure if EV manufacturers are attempting to force consumers to have all their work done by dealers. If so, I’ll keep waiting.
  - londons_explore 3y ago
    Dealers typically get a monopoly on software fixes/firmware updates. In EV's, more and more issues will be fixed by reconfiguring/patching software. I would guess that over time, car software will get more and more locked down - even today, real cryptography is typically used to stop you flashing new firmware onto your ECU. Those checks are only going to get tighter. There are no opensource ECU's. Therefore, I don't see the dealer going anywhere. But they might get rid of the workshop and replace it with desks of people able to hit buttons on a computer...
    - asynchronous 3y ago
      The funny thing is there’s nothing inherently more digital about an EV that requires over the air updates. Tesla just simply proved out that the model works so all EV makers have been following suit.
      - londons_explore 3y ago
        Over the air updates pay for themselves immediately if there is a recall that can be fixed with software. And thats ignoring any other possible benefits for the user, like upgraded features or bugfixes post-sale.
  - sokoloff 3y ago
    I’ve had a Nissan LEAF for 8.5 years. Everything the Nissan dealer has done has been free (service bulletins and a warranty repair [maybe a second for airbag, I forget). Everything else has been an easy DIY, meaning a corner/independent mechanic could have done it just as easily.
  - 3y ago
- cityofdelusion 3y ago
  I'm not sure much changes. High voltage systems are fairly complex and basically impossible to work on at home in a safe manner. This will direct pretty much all repairs that require disabling the high voltage system to mechanics / dealerships. We have a living example of this sort of transition with GM and their Volt / Bolt. Mechanics working on EVs today have be specially trained on high voltage procedures, which are fairly cumbersome in the shop to perform. Even things that seem simple, like the heat pump, end up with a fair amount of complexity due to stuff like special procedures, special oils, more valves with addition of a battery loop, etc. Dealerships do lose the oil change up-sell loop, but my gut feeling is they can make up the cost with big margins on high-voltage repairs. Check out the workshop service manuals for some existing EVs today -- its staggering how much more complex a battery cell replacement is compared to say, an ICE engine swap. Dealer prices on these two procedures are priced accordingly, with procedures that involve HV components regularly costing more than the depreciated value of the EV itself! The Toyota Prius seems to be the first and last model with any kind of easy repair kept in mind for high-voltage components on cars.
JimtheCoder 3y ago
Sometimes, I wish headlines would be a bit more specific. "Workers" to me implies assembly line workers, whereas the actual layoffs are mostly engineers. I have never really heard anyone call engineers, "Workers"...
- lolinder 3y ago
  > Google parent to lay off 12,000 workers https://nypost.com/2023/01/20/google-parent-alphabet-to-lay-off-12000-workers/ https://nypost.com/2023/01/20/google-parent-alphabet-to-lay-... > Microsoft laid off another 689 workers from its Seattle-area offices Monday https://www.seattletimes.com/business/microsoft-cuts-another-689-seattle-area-jobs-amid-cost-reductions/ https://www.seattletimes.com/business/microsoft-cuts-another... > Meta to Lay Off Another 10,000 Workers https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/14/technology/meta-facebook-layoffs.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/14/technology/meta-facebook-...
- wccrawford 3y ago
  "Workers" doesn't even mean non-managers any more... It's just all employees. The word has lost a lot of nuance.
gonzo41 3y ago
It's sad that they don't have some sort of retraining for these people.
- throwaway894345 3y ago
  I'm guessing it's mostly people with deep specialization (and interest) in combustion drive trains (e.g., engineers). I don't think it's feasible to take a combustion drive train engineer with a decade of experience and make them reasonably productive as a battery engineer in a short timeframe. No doubt many of those engineers are capable of making the pivot, but most are likely not particularly interested.
- hgs3 3y ago
  I assume it's cheaper to hire new employees at base pay than pay to retrain the seasoned employees.
- jupp0r 3y ago
  > Ford has previously said it is also hiring in some areas, so it’s not clear if these layoffs will result in an overall reduction in Ford’s workforce in the United States or Canada. This might mean that they are eliminating positions, but are possibly filling new ones with the laid off employees where appropriate.
cubefox 3y ago
The thing is: Combustion motors are amazingly complex and highly optimized beasts, while electric motors are dead simple. There isn't much to improve. So there are not many people working on electric motors.
- sundvor 3y ago
  Nor servicing them, further down the line.
  - throwaway5959 3y ago
    That’s a feature for the end customer, not a bug. I honestly think it’s the biggest reason Toyota is so anti-EV. It’s a lot easier to make a reliable EV than an ICE car.
    - sundvor 3y ago
      Yep, very much so. I intended it as such! (Expanded version: "Nor will there be much demand for people servicing the electric motors in after sales"). My first service after getting an EV was for tyre rotation, an air cabin filter and retrofitting a Pedestrian Warning System that wasn't available in Australia when I bought the car - 15 months into the ownership! Sure the cars are more expensive up front, but you're saving a bucket down the line. (I intend to have mine for 15 years or so.) Toyota is actively blocking moves to improve fuel quality standards in Australia, as an honourable mention (for the hall of shame). I'm absolutely disgusted by their behaviour.
- stcredzero 3y ago
  electric motors are dead simple. There isn't much to improve. But the entire system of the vehicle, and the way we use vehicles, and the way those form factors affect society and people's lives are very, very complex. So basically, the shift in technology is going to enable changes and improvements in all of those ways. Also, look at what Tesla, Lucid, and even Volkswagen have been able to achieve in terms of innovations just to date. Tesla has found ways to let electric motors spin faster, drive vehicles more efficiently, get built cheaper, and without rare earths. Lucid has Tesla beat in terms of comparable capacity in smaller packaging. Even Volkswagen has impressed Munroe and associates with some of their design around motors. I'd bet you can find people mistakenly saying, "there isn't much to improve," in internal combustion engines over their long history. Even now, this isn't correct. I suspect 21st century innovation in vehicles is just beginning!

olivermarks 3y ago

Ford is bleeding to death on purpose so they can get more tax payer EV subsidies https://youtu.be/5MZeTeqdsTw https://youtu.be/5MZeTeqdsTw

toomuchtodo 3y ago
I wouldn't say it's on purpose. Ford has always been a marginal (financially) automaker, and while the US gov is providing substantial support (>$10B) via battery and vehicle subsidies, it will be a painful transition based on the financials and balance sheet. Too much financial and institutional debt considering the swiftness at which they must transform. Tesla has a lot of room in their margin (and also generous subsidies due to US component content) to eat price reductions due to rising interest rates, Ford does not while also trying to retool their entire manufacturing supply chain. TLDR Efficient, nimble innovators can kick the can, laggard incumbents cannot.
- jdsully 3y ago
  Ford Credit (loans to purchasers of their vehicles) is on Ford's balance sheet while the others had to spin off those businesses in '08. So the debt situation is a bit misleading if you just compare the top level numbers to industry peers.
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    Ford Credit is what sells Ford vehicles, but it’s also where the profit is (roughly half of profits). Take away the credit biz, and that’s a material impact to both profits and volume. As the below article notes, it’s a balance and pushing risk around. https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/ford/2020/02/03/fords-lending-arm-generating-profit-ever/41133523/ https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/ford/2020/0...
    - jemmyw 3y ago
      Does that mean if you buy a vehicle outright all those folks buying on credit are subsidising you?

gobins 3y ago

It's interesting that while other companies are doubling down on electric vehicles, Toyota has come out and said the opposite after being one of the first companies to start.

bigyikes 3y ago
Electric cars becoming dominant seems like an inevitability to me, and it looks like many auto makers agree. It’s “just” a matter of battery costs, battery density, energy costs, and volume. What does Toyota see that we’re missing? I ask this as someone who just bought an ICE vehicle, but only because there were no electric vehicles in my market segment.
- GiorgioG 3y ago
  As someone who isn't sold on EVs (as they exist today), I just don't how EVs will wind up being better economically. Energy costs will wind up going up as demand on the grid strains our infrastructure's ability to supply enough electricity as most folks switches over to EVs. Worse, costs for all electricity (home, industry, etc) will go up as demand surges. My ICE vehicle won't lose range like an EV's will over time. Nor, will it need an expensive battery to be replaced. From a practical perspective, I can store 100+ miles of range in a $30 plastic container that I can store in the yard. If there's an extended power outage and I have an EV - I have to wait for the grid to come back up in order to drive my EV. Backup home batteries are still very expensive. Even at half their current prices they're prohibitive (compared to say an emergency gas generator). Will these problems be solved? Probably, just not in the next few years. My wife just got a new car and we chose an ICE. I will probably replace my 2016 ICE vehicle in the next 5-10 years and I think I'll wind up with another ICE.
  - panick21_ 3y ago
    > Energy costs will wind up going up Will still be cheaper then gas. Total cost of living will still be less. > Nor, will it need an expensive battery to be replaced. Overall live-cycle cost are already higher. And many batteries can go for a very, very long time. Even if you reach the 80% mark, they can often continue after that. Many EV batters survive the car and then go on to do other stuff for a long time. And those were first generation packs. > I can store 100+ miles of range in a $30 plastic container that I can store in the yard Something 99% of people have never done.

scop 3y ago

I was speaking with the owner of an auto shop a few months back and he made an interesting point I hadn’t heard re Ford: whereas Tesla is eating new customers, Ford and other legacy automakers are having to eat their own customers…which can lead to some serious business complexity!

SamuelAdams 3y ago
In the business world we call this cannibalizing sales. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannibalization_(marketing)?wprov=sfti1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannibalization_(marketing)?wp...
- deleted 3y ago
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CharlesW 3y ago
The Innovator's Dilemma is a classic book on this, well worth a read: https://claytonchristensen.com/books/the-innovators-dilemma/ https://claytonchristensen.com/books/the-innovators-dilemma/
jandrese 3y ago
Yep, and there is always a business case for trying to suppress/ignore the new technology and stick with what you know and what has been profitable for many years. This is how once mighty businesses fail. Look at Sears, who was Amazon before anybody knew what the Internet was, but then the Internet appeared and they couldn't move on because they had invested too much in their old business model. Moving a catalog mail order business online should be an incredibly easy transition, but decade after decade they dawdled until it was too late because it would have hurt the stores and the quarterly profits.

klipklop 3y ago

Likely a ploy to lay off more expensive older workers in favor of newer younger/cheaper ones. I can imagine them saying, "It has nothing to do with their age, we just need 'EV experience.'" Give me a break. The idea that auto maker employees can't adapt to building EV's is pretty absurd. Interesting that upper management/execs are not being tossed out as well. You would assume they would be the group with the most outdated knowledge in a changing market. I know this did happen with Toyota, but you don't hear much with the likes of Ford. They seem as backwards as ever when it comes to selling cars.