11 ms·

One thing overlooked is that the majority of the components were made in the U.S. This was pre-globalization, when even fasteners, pipe, and fittings were manuf

One thing overlooked is that the majority of the components were made in the U.S. This was pre-globalization, when even fasteners, pipe, and fittings were manufactured in the U.S. The increase in number and specificity of building codes has come in-part due to foreign-made building materials and poor QC. Even the quality of lumber has decreased as old growth forests that were harvested 80 years ago no longer exist. Heart pine lumber that were used in 1940s homes (I own one) is more dense and stronger than new growth pine lumber. [1] It would be tough to offer the same kind of kit in this day and age given the difference in building material back then compared to now. [1] https://etmoore.com/news/reclaimed-heart-pine-vs-yellow-pine/#:~:text=Durability,around%20870%20for%20yellow%20pine https://etmoore.com/news/reclaimed-heart-pine-vs-yellow-pine....

JimtheCoder 3y ago
"It would be tough to offer the same kind of kit in this day and age given the difference in building material back then compared to now." I see a lot of houses going up around here using metal studs...
- andrew_ 3y ago
  totally. metal studs are widely used in commercial construction as well. you'll also see metal studs in finished basements instead of wood furring strips. they're used where they're a good fit, and if the region and conditions there support it.
jameshart 3y ago
Not sure I follow how the location of manufacture of fittings matters. Is it your assertion that domestic manufacture is inherently of higher quality, and therefore in less need of regulation? There’s just some inbuilt good old Americanness in those 1950s US-made fittings that meant an untrained homeowner could reliably construct a sturdy and safe home without screwing it up, in a way that is just not possible when the parts are made overseas?
- ceejayoz 3y ago
  You're probably a little less likely to make shoddy parts if you're in reach of the recipient's legal system. Which most Chinese factories are not when selling to Americans.
  - jameshart 3y ago
    Anyone selling parts to US homeowners to build houses out of is well within the reach of US regulation.
    - DiggyJohnson 3y ago
      No? You’re suggesting a scale of international regulation (or embargo) that would be difficult or impossible to enforce.
      - gizmo686 3y ago
        This is literally the point of customs. Otherwise, literally any product regulation would be toothless as foreign companies would simply sell us products that meet the requirements of their country, not the US. Since that does not happen at scale, it would seem that US customs does have some ability to enforce US regulations on foreign sellers.
        the_sleaze9 3y ago
        What does customs have to do with it? If I were to say, purchase 100,000 gpu's direct from a chinese manufacturer, and half of them were dead on arrival, what is my recourse? Where does customs fit into that recourse? Now if I were to purchase them from an american company, I may have an opportunity to sue.
        henriquez 3y ago
        You could sue the Chinese-owned American shell company that imported the GPUs. I’m sure they didn’t wire the money away and close up shop immediately, like plenty of Amazon importers caught selling counterfeit or downright dangerous electronics.
hackernewds 3y ago
This argument for the quality of American made parts is easily refuted by the endurance of European and Japanese tech that still function today, particularly cars and electronics. My home still has a JVC TV and a National steam iron from the 60s
- onlyrealcuzzo 3y ago
  This analysis is easily refuted in that your Japanese car isn't representative of builders buying the cheapest available 2x4 or screw and trying to deliver the cheapest built house with the most profit, and not really worrying about building a long-term brand.
  - ajmurmann 3y ago
    That sounds like an argument FOR having prefab homes from a company like Sears that's trying to build a long-lasting brand. Maybe there is opportunity for a different kind of Apple Homepod.
- karaterobot 3y ago
  That's a survivorship bias. You're counting the few things that survived, and discounting the majority that didn't. Of course there is nothing inherently less dependable about something made in Japan compared to the United States. But things made cheaply are generally less dependable, and a lot of that stuff was made on the cheap for a reason: to break into the U.S. market.
- nonethewiser 3y ago
  No it cannot. American, Japanese, and German can all be high quality.
pugworthy 3y ago
Keep in mind with this discussion that these houses were sold from between 1908 and 1940. Korea's export-driven industrialization started in the early 60's, China not until the 80's. That said, building codes are about creating safety and resiliency in structures, primarily as a safety issue. They've been around a very long time, with events like the 1886 Chicago Fire and the 1906 San Francisco Earthquake being drivers for big change. There isn't much in terms of code to stop you from using crappy materials in a house, as long as they are safe.
turtlebits 3y ago
The quality of framing wood you choose does not factor into home longevity at all. If you follow standard stick framing practices (16" or 24" OC) use the correct sheathing and fasteners, there will be no difference. What really determines how long a house will last is water/moisture management.
- version_five 3y ago
  I think the point (accurate or not) was that building codes are what they are to accommodate crappy modern lumber. Although actually afaik older buildings are often overbuilt because there was no engineering to figure out the least you could safely get away with. I agree with you that houses are more likely to rot than to break from under building and fall down, although events like decks collapsing during party or roofs collapsing in heavy snow do happen.
  - dpe82 3y ago
    There's a ton of survivorship bias here too. Older houses that we're familiar with were well built, which is why there's still here. Plenty of poorly built ones are no longer around.
    - HPsquared 3y ago
      Well built, and also well maintained.
- peteradio 3y ago
  True, but on the margins of a leaky roof you'll rather have the old growth.
  - dymk 3y ago
    That's a matter of kiln drying and milling quality, not old growth, when you're choosing your studs
    - 3y ago
mindslight 3y ago
Building codes aren't necessitated by having individual parts of lesser quality - if a part doesn't meet its required specifications then the overall assembly is deficient regardless. Rather they're due to the tendency of builders to want to save money/labor by skimping on materials which only shows up long term (say putting studs 24" OC, or using 2x3's instead of 2x4's), or the adoption of cheaper less robust types of material that fail less gracefully (eg romex vs AC, drywall vs veneer plaster). Plus increasing risk adversity due to increasing wealth, and enough data to know how these systems actually fail in practice to make a meaningful difference. Building codes are basically part of and a response to our ever-increasing ability to analyze designs ahead of time - such analysis tells how we can make something less expensive while still meeting the requirements we're aware of, while codes make us more of ever more requirements that had previously been met by an overspec'd design.
JKCalhoun 3y ago
I know what you're saying but I have come to see the utility of modern materials like OSB in construction. Sure, it's ugly, but I suspect it holds up in terms of stability to older lumber. Someone in architectural engineering — feel free to correct me.
eropple 3y ago
> Even the quality of lumber has decreased as old growth forests that were harvested 80 years ago no longer exist. Heart pine lumber that were used in 1940s homes (I own one) is more dense and stronger than new growth pine lumber. [1] I'm a woodworker and I've also owned a property management company and done my own home's remodeling (the kind of remodel that means you talk to structural engineers). What you say is true, in some ways and with asterisks. It is also irrelevant. New growth pine is preposterously strong when loaded in the correct dimensions and balloon- and platform-framed houses are designed to do exactly that. Modern silviculture is an absolute marvel. It turns out prodigious amounts of more-than-good-enough material at remarkably cheap prices.
- genocidicbunny 3y ago
  To the average consumer who might buy a few 2x4's a year from Home Depot there has been a marked change though. 20 years ago you could get reasonable quality dimensional lumber and plywood from your average big box home improvement store. Nowadays that's practically impossible. Where I'm at, I've had to resort to going to lumber yards to get what I used to be able to get from Home Depot years ago -- the big box store's stuff is rarely even close to being dry and maybe 1/20 2x4's are anything resembling straight. Your average framing contractor is going to already buying from a lumber yard most likely, so they haven't seen that change, but in the consumer space it's been noticeable.
  - Moto7451 3y ago
    If you move a few bays over from the unnamed or explicitly listed as “whitewood” (usually a poplar) 2 x 4 to actual pine/fir/spruce, the quality returns. Recently they cost only two more dollars. Whitewood is fine for supporting most hobby loads. It’s not meant to build a house. It will happily act as a French Cleat, frame some shelving, or serve as a jig. Buying from lumber yards also matters due to grading and various standards builders have to abide by that weekend warriors do not.
    - eropple 3y ago
      I'm pretty sure, in the USA at least, whitewood is just ungraded hem-fir and SPF, not poplar. There's a joke that an ungraded bolt is guaranteed to catch a magnet and sink to the bottom of a bathtub. "Whitewood" is that, but wood.
anon291 3y ago
I live in a 1920s house in Portland Oregon... The wood in my house has broken innumerable drill bits. What can be drilled through in a few seconds with new wood takes me a good fifteen or so minutes. I added Ethernet wiring to the whole house when we had it rewired off knob and tube. It would take ten minutes through each stud and my hands would often tire of holding the drill That stuff is amazingly strong.
b112 3y ago
The increase in number and specificity of building codes has come in-part due to foreign-made building materials and poor QC. I agree, due to your uae of "in-part". Foreign parts are indeed very low quality, comparatively. What's worse are bog box stores importing, creating their own brand, and selling this junk. I honestly believe we should pass a law, if a big box retailer does this, they assume full liabilty and responsibility for QC and all damages. This includes if they have any ownership in any corporation, no matter how many shells or distance orml country, and the CFO, CxO should be criminally liable for compliance. EG no hiding. The big box guys like to import off brands by setting up a shell company, then in a few years axe the brand and close the corp, evading liabily. It needs to end! That said, I think many building codes exist because too many people take shortcuts.
pjc50 3y ago
> This was pre-globalization, when even fasteners, pipe, and fittings were manufactured in the U.S. The increase in number and specificity of building codes has come in-part due to foreign-made building materials and poor QC. In other words, when American companies would leave profits on the table by providing building materials of gratuitously good quality, rather than cost-shaving them? Given what the US food industry was doing pre-FDA, that sounds .. questionable.
Broken_Hippo 3y ago
It would be tough to offer the same kind of kit in this day and age given the difference in building material back then compared to now. Menards carries house kits. I looked into them about 20 years ago, and a search tells me they still exist today. And these kits are nicer than the sears kits. Many of the sears kits wouldn't have factored in electricity. Some of them wouldn't have plumbing. Insulation was probably minimal and I'd not be surprised to find out that folks have had to deal with asbestos in their house. Central air/heating might not have been the same: My parents had a house built in 1918. It had hot water heat. The hot water was supplied by a huge boiler, insulated by asbestos, and originally fired by coal. It should be tough to offer this kit in modern times: the new house kit of today is much better.
eternityforest 3y ago
In pretty much any area, modernization is all about moving the emphasis from materials and workmanship to design and specification. I think some of the low quality materials available with globalization might be because other places understand how to use those materials better than we do, we're still trying to use the old mindset with the new materials. We might not be able to do kit houses, but I think it's pretty cool that we don't chop old growth anymore, and we use less material for most things, and it all still generally works except when it's designed to fail or there's extreme corner cutting.

JimtheCoder 3y ago

"It would be tough to offer the same kind of kit in this day and age given the difference in building material back then compared to now." I see a lot of houses going up around here using metal studs...

andrew_ 3y ago
totally. metal studs are widely used in commercial construction as well. you'll also see metal studs in finished basements instead of wood furring strips. they're used where they're a good fit, and if the region and conditions there support it.

jameshart 3y ago

Not sure I follow how the location of manufacture of fittings matters. Is it your assertion that domestic manufacture is inherently of higher quality, and therefore in less need of regulation? There’s just some inbuilt good old Americanness in those 1950s US-made fittings that meant an untrained homeowner could reliably construct a sturdy and safe home without screwing it up, in a way that is just not possible when the parts are made overseas?

ceejayoz 3y ago
You're probably a little less likely to make shoddy parts if you're in reach of the recipient's legal system. Which most Chinese factories are not when selling to Americans.
- jameshart 3y ago
  Anyone selling parts to US homeowners to build houses out of is well within the reach of US regulation.
  - DiggyJohnson 3y ago
    No? You’re suggesting a scale of international regulation (or embargo) that would be difficult or impossible to enforce.
    - gizmo686 3y ago
      This is literally the point of customs. Otherwise, literally any product regulation would be toothless as foreign companies would simply sell us products that meet the requirements of their country, not the US. Since that does not happen at scale, it would seem that US customs does have some ability to enforce US regulations on foreign sellers.
      - the_sleaze9 3y ago
        What does customs have to do with it? If I were to say, purchase 100,000 gpu's direct from a chinese manufacturer, and half of them were dead on arrival, what is my recourse? Where does customs fit into that recourse? Now if I were to purchase them from an american company, I may have an opportunity to sue.
        henriquez 3y ago
        You could sue the Chinese-owned American shell company that imported the GPUs. I’m sure they didn’t wire the money away and close up shop immediately, like plenty of Amazon importers caught selling counterfeit or downright dangerous electronics.

hackernewds 3y ago

This argument for the quality of American made parts is easily refuted by the endurance of European and Japanese tech that still function today, particularly cars and electronics. My home still has a JVC TV and a National steam iron from the 60s

onlyrealcuzzo 3y ago
This analysis is easily refuted in that your Japanese car isn't representative of builders buying the cheapest available 2x4 or screw and trying to deliver the cheapest built house with the most profit, and not really worrying about building a long-term brand.
- ajmurmann 3y ago
  That sounds like an argument FOR having prefab homes from a company like Sears that's trying to build a long-lasting brand. Maybe there is opportunity for a different kind of Apple Homepod.
karaterobot 3y ago
That's a survivorship bias. You're counting the few things that survived, and discounting the majority that didn't. Of course there is nothing inherently less dependable about something made in Japan compared to the United States. But things made cheaply are generally less dependable, and a lot of that stuff was made on the cheap for a reason: to break into the U.S. market.
nonethewiser 3y ago
No it cannot. American, Japanese, and German can all be high quality.

pugworthy 3y ago

Keep in mind with this discussion that these houses were sold from between 1908 and 1940. Korea's export-driven industrialization started in the early 60's, China not until the 80's. That said, building codes are about creating safety and resiliency in structures, primarily as a safety issue. They've been around a very long time, with events like the 1886 Chicago Fire and the 1906 San Francisco Earthquake being drivers for big change. There isn't much in terms of code to stop you from using crappy materials in a house, as long as they are safe.

turtlebits 3y ago

The quality of framing wood you choose does not factor into home longevity at all. If you follow standard stick framing practices (16" or 24" OC) use the correct sheathing and fasteners, there will be no difference. What really determines how long a house will last is water/moisture management.

version_five 3y ago
I think the point (accurate or not) was that building codes are what they are to accommodate crappy modern lumber. Although actually afaik older buildings are often overbuilt because there was no engineering to figure out the least you could safely get away with. I agree with you that houses are more likely to rot than to break from under building and fall down, although events like decks collapsing during party or roofs collapsing in heavy snow do happen.
- dpe82 3y ago
  There's a ton of survivorship bias here too. Older houses that we're familiar with were well built, which is why there's still here. Plenty of poorly built ones are no longer around.
  - HPsquared 3y ago
    Well built, and also well maintained.
peteradio 3y ago
True, but on the margins of a leaky roof you'll rather have the old growth.
- dymk 3y ago
  That's a matter of kiln drying and milling quality, not old growth, when you're choosing your studs
  - 3y ago

mindslight 3y ago

Building codes aren't necessitated by having individual parts of lesser quality - if a part doesn't meet its required specifications then the overall assembly is deficient regardless. Rather they're due to the tendency of builders to want to save money/labor by skimping on materials which only shows up long term (say putting studs 24" OC, or using 2x3's instead of 2x4's), or the adoption of cheaper less robust types of material that fail less gracefully (eg romex vs AC, drywall vs veneer plaster). Plus increasing risk adversity due to increasing wealth, and enough data to know how these systems actually fail in practice to make a meaningful difference. Building codes are basically part of and a response to our ever-increasing ability to analyze designs ahead of time - such analysis tells how we can make something less expensive while still meeting the requirements we're aware of, while codes make us more of ever more requirements that had previously been met by an overspec'd design.

JKCalhoun 3y ago

I know what you're saying but I have come to see the utility of modern materials like OSB in construction. Sure, it's ugly, but I suspect it holds up in terms of stability to older lumber. Someone in architectural engineering — feel free to correct me.

eropple 3y ago

> Even the quality of lumber has decreased as old growth forests that were harvested 80 years ago no longer exist. Heart pine lumber that were used in 1940s homes (I own one) is more dense and stronger than new growth pine lumber. [1] I'm a woodworker and I've also owned a property management company and done my own home's remodeling (the kind of remodel that means you talk to structural engineers). What you say is true, in some ways and with asterisks. It is also irrelevant. New growth pine is preposterously strong when loaded in the correct dimensions and balloon- and platform-framed houses are designed to do exactly that. Modern silviculture is an absolute marvel. It turns out prodigious amounts of more-than-good-enough material at remarkably cheap prices.

genocidicbunny 3y ago
To the average consumer who might buy a few 2x4's a year from Home Depot there has been a marked change though. 20 years ago you could get reasonable quality dimensional lumber and plywood from your average big box home improvement store. Nowadays that's practically impossible. Where I'm at, I've had to resort to going to lumber yards to get what I used to be able to get from Home Depot years ago -- the big box store's stuff is rarely even close to being dry and maybe 1/20 2x4's are anything resembling straight. Your average framing contractor is going to already buying from a lumber yard most likely, so they haven't seen that change, but in the consumer space it's been noticeable.
- Moto7451 3y ago
  If you move a few bays over from the unnamed or explicitly listed as “whitewood” (usually a poplar) 2 x 4 to actual pine/fir/spruce, the quality returns. Recently they cost only two more dollars. Whitewood is fine for supporting most hobby loads. It’s not meant to build a house. It will happily act as a French Cleat, frame some shelving, or serve as a jig. Buying from lumber yards also matters due to grading and various standards builders have to abide by that weekend warriors do not.
  - eropple 3y ago
    I'm pretty sure, in the USA at least, whitewood is just ungraded hem-fir and SPF, not poplar. There's a joke that an ungraded bolt is guaranteed to catch a magnet and sink to the bottom of a bathtub. "Whitewood" is that, but wood.

anon291 3y ago

I live in a 1920s house in Portland Oregon... The wood in my house has broken innumerable drill bits. What can be drilled through in a few seconds with new wood takes me a good fifteen or so minutes. I added Ethernet wiring to the whole house when we had it rewired off knob and tube. It would take ten minutes through each stud and my hands would often tire of holding the drill That stuff is amazingly strong.

b112 3y ago

The increase in number and specificity of building codes has come in-part due to foreign-made building materials and poor QC. I agree, due to your uae of "in-part". Foreign parts are indeed very low quality, comparatively. What's worse are bog box stores importing, creating their own brand, and selling this junk. I honestly believe we should pass a law, if a big box retailer does this, they assume full liabilty and responsibility for QC and all damages. This includes if they have any ownership in any corporation, no matter how many shells or distance orml country, and the CFO, CxO should be criminally liable for compliance. EG no hiding. The big box guys like to import off brands by setting up a shell company, then in a few years axe the brand and close the corp, evading liabily. It needs to end! That said, I think many building codes exist because too many people take shortcuts.

pjc50 3y ago

> This was pre-globalization, when even fasteners, pipe, and fittings were manufactured in the U.S. The increase in number and specificity of building codes has come in-part due to foreign-made building materials and poor QC. In other words, when American companies would leave profits on the table by providing building materials of gratuitously good quality, rather than cost-shaving them? Given what the US food industry was doing pre-FDA, that sounds .. questionable.

Broken_Hippo 3y ago

It would be tough to offer the same kind of kit in this day and age given the difference in building material back then compared to now. Menards carries house kits. I looked into them about 20 years ago, and a search tells me they still exist today. And these kits are nicer than the sears kits. Many of the sears kits wouldn't have factored in electricity. Some of them wouldn't have plumbing. Insulation was probably minimal and I'd not be surprised to find out that folks have had to deal with asbestos in their house. Central air/heating might not have been the same: My parents had a house built in 1918. It had hot water heat. The hot water was supplied by a huge boiler, insulated by asbestos, and originally fired by coal. It should be tough to offer this kit in modern times: the new house kit of today is much better.

eternityforest 3y ago

In pretty much any area, modernization is all about moving the emphasis from materials and workmanship to design and specification. I think some of the low quality materials available with globalization might be because other places understand how to use those materials better than we do, we're still trying to use the old mindset with the new materials. We might not be able to do kit houses, but I think it's pretty cool that we don't chop old growth anymore, and we use less material for most things, and it all still generally works except when it's designed to fail or there's extreme corner cutting.