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I love hotel bars, and not just for the quiet. It is the "liminality" that the author mentions, not just in space and time but also in the social dimension: a p
by kieckerjan 3y ago
I love hotel bars, and not just for the quiet. It is the "liminality" that the author mentions, not just in space and time but also in the social dimension: a place that is neither private nor public, but a bit of both. Places where you can be friends (or at least get drunk) with a total stranger for one evening.
When I am in a big city, alone or with company, I try to hit the bar of my hotel at that specific lull between daytime obligations and the night on the town. I order a Martini to test the proficiency of the bartender and make some smalltalk or eavesdrop on the conversations while I wait for the evening to arrive. There is comfort in these vacant but well-delineated stretches of time, and hotelbars are perfect for that.
- constantly 3y agoA martini only has two ingredients. If you’re trying to test a bartender you might consider doing something like a frozen pina colada or a gin fizz.
- Etheryte 3y agoI think you strongly overestimate the competence of the average barkeep, many are there for the seasonal job or just to fill a gap between jobs. Not that there's anything wrong with either one of those, but it's good to know beforehand so you don't have a drink absolutely butchered. I can't even begin to count the times I've been served a "skinny bitch" that's just vodka and soda water.
- nl 3y agoAs an example of this I once ordered a margarita in a casino bar and the bartender looked up the recipe in a book.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- roflc0ptic 3y agoI like the humility
- xattt 3y agoIt goes to show how much adult life is and will always be a middle school dance.
- bee_rider 3y agoHow was it?
- anthomtb 3y agoThat seems better than dumping a yellow mixture of unknown origin over some well tequila.
- newaccount74 3y ago> A martini only has two ingredients I think that's the point :) Just like you'd test an Italian chef by ordering pasta al pomodoro.
- FartyMcFarter 3y agoOr just like you can test a software engineer by discussing basic data structures and how they behave both in theory and in practice.
- Karellen 3y agoOr fizzbuzz
- smcameron 3y agoI think I'm going to start calling a gin and tonic a "fizzbuzz".
- franga2000 3y agoOr test a bartender by ordering a fizzbuzz and see if they're a former software engineer who got fed up with the crunch and left to go work in a bar (something I think all of us have considered at least once).
- copperx 3y agoIt's been a long time since I heard a jwz reference.
- jb1991 3y agoCoffee also only has two ingredients, beans and water. Maybe a third if you got milk. That’s it, so it’s very easy to make good coffee every time.
- vanilla_nut 3y agoSteak has only one ingredient, meat. That's why I make it so often, it's impossible to mess it up.
- switch007 3y agoFor me, steak without butter, salt, pepper, garlic and thyme is a sad time.
- bookofjoe 3y agoSubstitute ghee for butter and you've got one foot in heaven.
- wpm 3y agoI love ghee, it’s like freebasing butter.
- sph 3y agoI love both. Ghee to fry the steak, butter to baste the steak towards the end. Heavenly
- switch007 3y agoI totally forgot about ghee despite having a tub in the fridge, and using it last time I cooked a steak lol. Good shout. It adds a nice nutty flavour if I recall But butter is only for finishing, to bring out the garlic and thyme flavours. I cook it with a bit of oil if I finish with butter
- vanilla_nut 3y ago
- dreamcompiler 3y agoA proper martini has only one real ingredient. The other is virtual.
- mauvehaus 3y agoI've said it (quoted it?) before and I'll say it again: A bone dry martini is just a glass of cold gin. A martini requires vermouth. Drinking cold gin is a fine thing to do, but you needn't confuse the issue by calling it a martini.
- OJFord 3y agoIf we're not mixing them, I'd pick the vermouth any day personally.
- iamthepieman 3y agoI'm pretty sure that quote from Churchill about how to make a martini is apocryphal. "I would like to observe the vermouth from across the room while I drink my martini.” Or "pour the gin and nod in the direction of France"
- twic 3y agoThe Martini you are thinking of definitely has two ingredients - you couldn't make it without ice.
- bamfly 3y agoI can only imagine this is the actual preference of two types of people: 1) Those who've never had a good martini made with high-quality, fresh vermouth, carefully chosen to complement the gin (or vodka, for that variant) being used. 2) Folks who've adopted the preference not due to genuinely preferring straight gin to an actually good martini, but because they've decided it's somehow more hard-core, classy, or old-school, due to Churchill et al. (I wouldn't say it's any of those, but to each their own—if anything, the Churchill thing reads to me more as an alcoholism joke than serious advice) I would agree, however, that given a decent-or-better gin and cheap vermouth that was opened six months ago and has been sitting in the back of a cabinet since, I'd rather have the gin neat or over ice. Both primary ingredients need to be good to make a tasty martini—otherwise, sure, why bother, and yeah, the vast majority of bars probably don't go through enough good vermouth to justify stocking it at all (let alone multiple kinds to pair thoughtfully with various gins) so many places just can't make a good martini. I certainly wouldn't judge a bartender's skill at anything but a very-fancy bar based on how good a martini they make. It's not a drink with an acceptable cheap version, IMO—there's nothing for the cheapness to hide behind.
- mikrl 3y agoIt would take a true maestro to make a damn good martini but even the basic AF store bought pina colada mix tastes good. Getting into tiki cocktails, I’ve never had a bad one because it is literally impossible to mess up fruit juices and large quantities of rum and other spirits.
- chipotle_coyote 3y agoI don’t know — I suppose I’d agree that even a “bad” rum-and-fruit-juice cocktail is almost always still drinkable. But there’s a wide difference between a Mai Tai or a Zombie made at a tiki bar following the classic recipes and one made at an Applebee’s. :)
- mauvehaus 3y agoYes, but like the best simple recipes, the skill lies in picking the right two and using them in the right proportion. Gins and vermouths both vary a lot in flavor, and a martini is a drink that's all about the subtleties of how they interact. If you get an olive or three in your martini, there's also the element of the olive brine. That could be an incidental amount from the surface of the olives, or an amount added beyond that, at which point the drink is properly called a dirty martini. A martini is the perfect test of a bartender's skill, just as a plain cheese pizza is the perfect test of a pizza maker's skill.
- kieckerjan 3y agoCheers, mate.
- 7znwjshsus 3y agoYou can only do so much if your ingredients and oven is bad. I don't think you can judge the cook in those cases, only the restaurant as a whole.
- wrycoder 3y agoIf the ingredients and the oven are bad, a good cook fixes that or leaves immediately.
- constantly 3y agoAgree with cheese pizza, and will add plain cheeseburger. But with a martini one normally specifies the ingredients (or at least the base) as the orderer, otherwise it’s just well alcohol. So I would normally say something like “vodka martini” and they would give me whatever is on well with whatever the vermouth is, and I guess olive juice if I specified. Otherwise I’d order a “X Brand vodka/gin martini” and they’d do the same but with the specified brand. So this isn’t really helpful to determine anything about the bartender. Unless you’re telling them to surprise you, but then you’re likely just testing if their preferences match yours. Furthermore, the recipe specifies the proportions. Whatever ounces or whatever ingredient. I would argue that them deciding the proportions outside of the recipe is bad. I think your romanticizing martinis too much and reading too much into them. Martinis are good btw, just saying they’re the most basic drink.
- kgwxd 3y agoOr maybe just drop the pretentious snobbery all together.
- twic 3y agoMy standard test cocktails are a Vieux Carré, and a Sidecar, but i ask for it to be less sour than usual. The former is moderately complicated, and tastes wrong if it's not bang on. The latter is simple, but tests their ability to deviate from a script. (also, standard-ratio Sidecars are an abomination)
- Steve44 3y agoI normally do a 3:2:1[1] for a sidecar and get good feedback on it. [1] my recipe is 2 x VSOP Brandy + 1 x Cointreau + 0.5 x Lemon juice / Shake & strain.
- FuriouslyAdrift 3y agoA drop of bitters can make a HUGE difference. There's also many many variations in style and substance. (I prefer a Vesper that's actually close to the original recipe with Tempus Fugit Kina l'Aero d'Or or an upside down Martini with a vermouth as the main and gin as the additive)
- jghn 3y agoNegronis only have three ingredients but make for a good bartender test for exactly this reason. a) do they even know what it is? b) do they know the 3 ingredients? c) Do they know the correct proportions? It's not like a martini which is a term that can mean just about anything from person to person.
- ravenstine 3y agoAgreed! I love negronis, but have found that they can easily be screwed up. I've had more barely-adequate negronis than ones that were good or even worth drinking, but they're my favorite cocktail when they're good. They're just uncommon enough that many bartenders forget exactly what's in them.
- jghn 3y agoI picked this up from a local food writer. One of the categories in which he bins bartenders is "they don't know what it is, but don't try to wing it & when I tell them they make it correctly" and he views that as an acceptable outcome as well. If they can manage to make 1/3 each of 3 ingredients it means he can trust them to follow instructions on other drinks as well.
- PheonixPharts 3y agoA classic martini has three ingredients, though I find novice cocktail makers often forget the most important: gin, vermouth and ice water. If you've ever made them in bulk you immediately realize that you need to add ~20% ice water before putting the batch into the freezer (since it isn't added in the process of mixing). The martini may be simple, but it is not easy to make an excellent one. It's a very solid test of a bartender's skill because, unlike many drinks, ingredients alone cannot carry the cocktail. A piña colada for example, is mostly about ingredients (are you using a good coconut cream? fresh pineapple?) For the martini the chilling and dilution need to be just right. This tests the bartender's most important skill: mixing. Proper mixing of the beverage is ultimately what makes a martini. In addition, I've had a shocking number of awful martinis served to me.
- constantly 3y agoI am very open to being wrong about the ingredients in a martini, so I checked. I can’t find any reference to any ingredient other than the two mentioned, plus maybe a garnish if desired. Ice water is never listed, so it sounds like you’re having nonstandard martinis, which is totally fine but a little unfair to the bartender if it’s some test. I was thinking that some water does make it into the martini as an artifact of the catalyst (ice) used to make it cold, but then you seem to reference actively diluting it with straight iced water. I think we’re probably just referencing different drinks, I am specifically referencing a “classic martini” from the original post. I get the sense that this is just a hyper specific hobby of yours, so won’t begrudge you being exacting to the standards you’ve created. Just like some people really, really get off on leather shoes or suits or whatever, hobbies are fun.
- dlgeek 3y agoThe ice water is implicit. It comes from shaking or stirring it over ice to chill everything prior to serving. Dilution from this process is important for the balance of most cocktails.
- chrisdhoover 3y agoThe drink is diluted a bit by the ice in the mixing glass. It does not show up in the recipe but is an essential element. In the book, How’s Your Drink? The author admonishes the reader not to serve knock out drinks that are not sufficiently left in ice long enough for some dilution to occur.
- inerte 3y agoTangential, but most bartenders would say a Daiquiri is how you test another bartender. I think I first read that in "Regarding Cocktails" but a quick search does bring interesting confirmation https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=bartender%20test%20daiquiri https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=bartender%20test%20dai...
- 0xffff2 3y agoThe daiquiri is an interesting one because it will weed out easily 90% of bartenders without even receiving a drink. The number of times I have been told "sorry, we don't have a blender" is a source of great amusement to me.
- zeekaran 3y agoI recently ordered a daiquiri from someone who didn't know how to make one. I received a delicious drink served in a coupe, but the weird thing was that it had a large spherical ice cube in it as well.
- hluska 3y agoOr just don’t test bartenders? They have bosses who do that for you. Did you feel entitled to call up Google and start interviewing their engineers the first time you used the search engine?
- schwartzworld 3y agoIn most bars a frozen Pina colada also only has two ingredients: rum and Pina colada mix. A martini is deceptive in its simplicity. The lack of flavorful ingredients like lime juice or coconut milk means technique and balance are more important, not less.
- Steve44 3y agoA good martini takes skill and good ingredients to make. The gin and the vermouth choice make a difference, as does the way they are mixed and how they are garnished. One thing I've not seen mentioned in other comments is the importance of the lemon twist. It's not just a visual garnish, when the oils are expressed onto the finished drink it adds a big layer of aroma which is an important part of the drink.
- stuntkite 3y agoWho drinks a pina colada to start a night? Sazerac is the test.
- wcedmisten 3y agoWow this was written beautifully!
- BlueTemplar 3y agoCurious, can you go to one if you're not renting a room in the hotel ?
- omni 3y agoSure you can, businesses generally love you giving them money in exchange for goods and services.
- bww 3y ago… and you’ll give them plenty. I live in New York, but I rarely go to hotel bars here because, while frequently comfortable, they are outrageously expensive. On my most recent visit this spring I paid $24 for a single very mediocre cocktail.
- whymauri 3y agoHotel bars are in a liminal space where some of the best bars in the world are in big city hotels, but also some of the most disappointing bars. Hard to know without searching in advanced. I'm not sure I would just walk in when the prices are steep across the board for hotel bars.
- omni 3y ago> On my most recent visit this spring I paid $24 for a single very mediocre cocktail. I have bad news about every restaurant in Manhattan since Covid.
- ravenstine 3y agoSome of my favorite social experiences occurred at hotel bars near airports. An example was a time I struck up a conversation with a woman who turned out to be a flight attendant, and we ended up eating dinner together and talking for hours. Even gave me her phone number! It's one of those things that's only likely to happen in another setting such as a noisy sports bar. Being able to hear each other was really important; most bars where I live have bad acoustics and music blaring, which I think suppresses random conversations. My other favorite type of bar is those at fancy restaurants. They are usually quieter, have better clientele, and are often a de facto loophole for eating dinner without a reservation.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- ravenstine 3y ago> only likely unlikely*
- jamal-kumar 3y agoI just recall this from when I used to enjoy alcohol - ordering a martini to test proficiency of bartender, and then getting charged for a full, disgusting entire shot of vermouth in there because the bartenders get in TROUBLE for not metering out shots in full, across many bars. Like there's just no recourse for them to add a little capful because there's graduated marks on the bottles and their boss is being overbearing, across many different bars this being the policy.
- justinhj 3y ago“A perfect martini should be made by filling a glass with gin, then waving it in the general direction of Italy.” I don’t drink but it’s a nice quote by Noel Coward
- jamal-kumar 3y agoDude may as well have just said "I only slam hard liquor straight"
- hluska 3y agoI was a bartender when I was young and so please cut the bullshit. Bartenders see this kind of shit constantly and it’s usually a tell that you have low confidence and a really bad personality. Confident people who come from money don’t care to flaunt like this. Whoop dee shit, you are extremely opinionated about martinis. You might think it makes you sound like a big shot but the opposite is true.
- whartung 3y ago> I love hotel bars, and not just for the quiet. I was out of town once with my wife, and we were in a hotel. We went down to the lounge, and it was a nice, serene space, with quiet little seating spaces. It had a great atmosphere and snack mix. Later, I had to go back to the same area and, having had a good experience, I picked the same hotel hoping to use the lounge again. But, alas, the hotel was overrun by a High School Jazz Band event. Quiet was not on the menu this trip!
- munificent 3y ago> Places where you can be friends (or at least get drunk) with a total stranger for one evening. Conventions and cruises can scratch this itch too.
- fortuna86 3y agoOne of my favorite travel tips is duck in anywhere, order a cocktail, tip well, then ask the bartender "If you were off today, where would you go?" Found the best bars i've ever been to this way.
- crossroadsguy 3y agoFor me that is so for a bigger personal reason (along with the big enough of reason of not being noisy) - because these places almost never have even a whiff of cigarette smoke and I love that. A place where you can drink without having to worry about someone lighting up. Especially the ones which are connected to the lobby - awesome, that means no one is allowed to ever smoke in there.