7 ms·

Yea nice article and all, but let's be honest: This is pretty much backed into the cake of how we handle things currently as a society. People are seen as a mea

Yea nice article and all, but let's be honest: This is pretty much backed into the cake of how we handle things currently as a society. People are seen as a means to an end. You are disconnected from what you do and the positive effects it might have at best, and, at worst, your work might not have a positive effect at all. You might in fact feel that the whole tech thing has become toxic. And now we call this burnout? While in reality, it may just be exactly the other way around. Mass psychosis ousting those who dare to wake up. Now, you can call me cynical, but I'd invite you to think about who's really cynical here. Just a thought.

haswell 3y ago
As someone about a year into a sabbatical to recover from burnout, I tend to agree. I had a series of expectations about the role of the break I was about to take, and how it would serve as a recharge to enable me to jump back in. Instead, it’s been a gradual process of waking up to the systemic reasons that led to the burnout, many of which had nothing to do with the (legitimately stressful) work environment I was in. It’s hard to summarize this in a comment, and I’m currently working on an outline for an extensive series of blog posts exploring these realizations in depth. But a few of the big things were (and I should emphasize that the following points just scratch the surface): 1. I am not my thoughts or feelings. It’s surprising how far this one will take you 2. If work is your support system, your life exists on shaky ground 3. Personal struggles become work struggles and vice versa. You can’t draw a clean box around grief and loss, or pretend that work stress can stay at work 4. There were major gaps in my life in terms of social connections, time spent in nature, finding artistic outlets, etc. 5. Focusing on real self-care/improvement as one’s primary purpose in life open doors internally and externally As I transition back to work, it won’t involve picking up where I left off, but something completely different and oriented around these deeper realizations about myself and helping other people find the same insights for themselves. These things are nearly impossible to see while in the midst of a burnout state.
- throwuxiytayq 3y ago
  Can I follow you somewhere?
  - haswell 3y ago
    I'm currently trying to decide how/where to publish, and haven't decided whether or not I'll use a pseudonym when publishing (a lot of my personal stuff stems from family issues that I'm cautious to go into publicly). But I will put a link in my HN profile when I get things up and running, and if you shoot me an email (address in profile), I'd be happy to ping you when I get this off the ground. I expect this is at least a few months out, but I'm hoping to do most of the writing while the experience is fresh.
- dheera 3y ago
  > 2. If work is your support system, your life exists on shaky ground This is why I despise it when the likes of Jack Ma, Elon Musk, et al try to promote a culture in which staying at work till 9pm or later and coming in on weekends is normalized, and tell everyone in their 20s that that's the only right way to live. It's horrible advice and incredibly short-sighted. Then you have the likes of TikTok who have meetings late into almost every evening and blame it on the time zone difference between USA and China, when they could have planned better, drawn lines, and have more reasonably-planned meeting times that fit both time zones. Employees in their 20s who don't know better just drink this Kool-aid and get burned out. Those people will never have time to make real friends outside of work, date healthily, or otherwise find a real support system that can emotionally support them without a conflict of interest with the workplace. The way you find that healthy support system is precisely by having evenings and weekends to yourself so you can go to venues where you can meet people outside of work.
  - FooBarWidget 3y ago
    Yes big money exploit workers. What else is new?
    - klyrs 3y ago
      > What else is new? People are learning anew that they have a say in this relationship, and after decades of hiatus, starting to resist again.
      - starbugs 3y ago
        I hope people will one day learn that the cake is a lie. Nothing bad will happen if you dare to say no. Quite the opposite. It's a house of cards built on greed and fear.
  - disgruntledphd2 3y ago
    > Then you have the likes of TikTok who have meetings late into almost every evening and blame it on the time zone difference between USA and China, when they could have planned better, drawn lines, and have more reasonably-planned meeting times that fit both time zones The only difference between TikTok and older fast growing consumer tech companies (Google, Facebook et al) is that their headquarters are not in the USA, so west coast employees are exposed to this. I remember seeing someone I used to work with at FB complain about this, and I smiled as this person used to try to put meetings in my calendar at 9pm on a Friday. I'm totally agreed with you in principle, but just pointing out that this isn't a new phenomenon that TikTok invented (though I hear they are pretty bad).
- throwawaymaths 3y ago
  Hate to say it but depending on your long term objectives taking a sabbatical might have been the worst thing to recover from burnout. You want to reassociate effort with reward, and the best way to do that is to work on small things related to what caused your burnout that will "guarantee wins with low expectations". By pivoting to something different you reinforce the association of the previous form of effort with failure (in the negative space of rewarding yourself for not doing it).
  - haswell 3y ago
    The levels of stress I was enduring started causing physiological symptoms that eventually forced me to take medication to calm things down. It was also severely disrupting my sleep, which was causing other health problems. Setting aside any discussion of rewards, there were red flags everywhere telling me I had to take a step back, and fast (my doctors agreed). But beyond the physical health, this is all a matter of perspective and framing. If measured on the traditional metrics of reward vs. effort (shipping things, happy customers, compensation, respect of peers, interesting problems, etc.), I had no reason to burn out. The trouble is that most people are conditioned to believe without question that those are some of the the primary metrics/rewards that matter. For me personally, part of the burnout was due more to a misplaced emphasis on things that most people would classify as "wins", but from which I derived no personal satisfaction. Going deeper, much of the burnout wasn't related to work at all. And deeper still, some of the burnout was due to a deep misalignment between the work I was doing and my core values. What I really want out of life. Pivoting might be the worst thing for continuing down the path I was on, but to me that's a feature, not a bug.
    - freetinker 3y ago
      My experience, and analysis of it, bears striking similarities. Looking forward to your blog posts!
    - throwawaymaths 3y ago
      > Pivoting might be the worst thing for continuing down the path I was on, but to me that's a feature, not a bug. Love your perspective. I didn't want to assume (which is why I disclaimed in the first sentence). Hopefully my comment will still be helpful to people who don't want to pivot their life.
- mahathu 3y ago
  "When I start working again, it won’t involve picking up where I left off, but something completely different and oriented around these deeper realizations and helping other people find the same insights for themselves." Such condescending drivel. The first "realisation" is what is commonly taught within the first 5 sessions of cognitive behavioural therapy. The fifth seems like a move in the right direction for a person who considers (2) and (3) to be so enlightening to justify teaching other people about them, but ultimately coming up with purpuses for your life and ranking them sounds like setting yourself up for a lot of disappointment once the inevitable days where such self-proclaimed purposes can't be achieved come. Envisioning dedicating an entire blog to enlighten others about these "realisations" people generally have before turning 20 just makes you sound like a narcissist.
  - haswell 3y ago
    > The first "realisation" is what is commonly taught within the first 5 sessions of cognitive behavioural therapy This is something I learned early and explored regularly in my therapy journey of many years, but I never directly experienced it until I had time off to explore it more deeply (mindfulness meditation, time in nature, photography all helped here). It's one thing to understand this conceptually. It's another thing entirely to experience it directly, and it's that delta that seems worth exploring. My goal in writing all of this out isn't to enlighten people, or to claim I've found the one true path, or to proclaim novel findings about the nature of self. But rather, to re-explore the interesting parts of the break and what worked/didn't work for my own clarity, and in case that information resonates with someone or helps them through their own stuff. In short: "this is what worked for me, might not work for you, do with that what you will". I'm certain it won't resonate with everyone, and I'm ok with that. To be honest, one of the biggest things that has made me think twice about this project is that I don't want people to think I'm taking myself too seriously. But your comment helped me realize that I'm not actually concerned about naysayers, so thank you for that!
- starbugs 3y ago
  Thank you for this. Now that I have ranted enough in the parent comment, here are my 2 maybe constructive cents: 1. Learn what it means to be relaxed again and make this your first priority. F** everything else, if necessary. Anxiety and stress don't have a chance if you aren't tense. 2. Go out into the sun and spend a lot of time in nature. If you can't get out of bed in the morning, make it a habit to go out first thing in the morning for an hour or so. Force yourself if need be at first. 3. When anxiety or self-blame start to emerge, feel it and focus on the feeling itself intensely. This makes it impossible for it to take over your mind. 4. Make fear a positive experience by using it for something positive, e.g. learning how to focus on your feelings or reframing it as thrill. 5. Try all methods you can find to cope. Everyone is different and not all methods work for everybody.
  - haswell 3y ago
    +1 to all of the above. Especially “try stuff”. Going along with 3 and 4, realizing how much worse avoidance was than embracing anxiety and the causes of it was a game changer. The book “Flow” also applies here.
- EatingWithForks 3y ago
  Can you clarify no 1? What are you if not your thinking and your feeling? I'm not trying to be snarky, i am actually legit curious about how to develop a sense of self that doesn't have to do with, y'know, sensing.
  - starbugs 3y ago
    You are the one who sees (or 'hears') the thoughts and feels the feelings. The reason this distinction makes sense is that, arguably, most if not all of 'your' thoughts and feelings are actually preconditioned from the outside. This lets you disidentify from an outside programming.
    - EatingWithForks 3y ago
      But how do you define yourself outside of thinking and feeling? Even the thought to disidentify is a thought, no? I don't understand.
      - starbugs 3y ago
        The thought 'disidentify' is just a word for describing the process of understanding it. Think about it like this: As long as you believe that you are your thoughts, you are identified with them. They are you. Can you control your thoughts? No? Ok, there's the problem. But you are not your thoughts, actually. You are able to 'hear' your thoughts. If it weren't so, who would be unable to control their thoughts in the thought experiment above? Did you ever walk down the street and suddenly have your mind comment on something you see without you having asked for it? Where did that thought come from? Did you intentionally cause it? Or did it just happen and you recognized it happily (or sadly) talking inside your mind for no good reason? Try the following experiment: Ask yourself what will be your next thought? What happens? If you really are your thoughts, then you should be able to know what the next one will be, no? Edit: You asked how do you define yourself? For me, it's easiest to think of me as the one who thinks or feels, or better "the one who can hear thoughts or feel feelings". Ultimately, I believe this is just another thought that helps deprogramming a conditioning. In reality, your 'self' does not even exist. It's a concept made up by the mind.
- foothrowaway 3y ago
  Agree w. most everything presented. Me, I support one disabled family member near full-time, another one 4 days of the week, and another occasionally (neighbor, on-call). I decided to give up alcohol a couple of years ago, got put into a weaning off of it over time (yeah, that rough). Every 18 months or so it flares back, now I am down to almost nothing (usually 2-4 shots every 12 hours, some days none(!)), and the past few months are very rough, worse than the past few years. Full-bore burn-out every other day. Working on this, but considering going back to alcoholism. > These things are nearly impossible to see while in the midst of a burnout state. Yep! Whiteboards help, write when good, erase the other notes when better.
systems_glitch 3y ago
You are the fuel or you are the fireman :/
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
smcleod 3y ago
Absolutely. Just like the fact that companies will make as much profit as they can get away with - they will treat their workers with as much, or near to as much as they can get away with.

haswell 3y ago

As someone about a year into a sabbatical to recover from burnout, I tend to agree. I had a series of expectations about the role of the break I was about to take, and how it would serve as a recharge to enable me to jump back in. Instead, it’s been a gradual process of waking up to the systemic reasons that led to the burnout, many of which had nothing to do with the (legitimately stressful) work environment I was in. It’s hard to summarize this in a comment, and I’m currently working on an outline for an extensive series of blog posts exploring these realizations in depth. But a few of the big things were (and I should emphasize that the following points just scratch the surface): 1. I am not my thoughts or feelings. It’s surprising how far this one will take you 2. If work is your support system, your life exists on shaky ground 3. Personal struggles become work struggles and vice versa. You can’t draw a clean box around grief and loss, or pretend that work stress can stay at work 4. There were major gaps in my life in terms of social connections, time spent in nature, finding artistic outlets, etc. 5. Focusing on real self-care/improvement as one’s primary purpose in life open doors internally and externally As I transition back to work, it won’t involve picking up where I left off, but something completely different and oriented around these deeper realizations about myself and helping other people find the same insights for themselves. These things are nearly impossible to see while in the midst of a burnout state.

throwuxiytayq 3y ago
Can I follow you somewhere?
- haswell 3y ago
  I'm currently trying to decide how/where to publish, and haven't decided whether or not I'll use a pseudonym when publishing (a lot of my personal stuff stems from family issues that I'm cautious to go into publicly). But I will put a link in my HN profile when I get things up and running, and if you shoot me an email (address in profile), I'd be happy to ping you when I get this off the ground. I expect this is at least a few months out, but I'm hoping to do most of the writing while the experience is fresh.
dheera 3y ago
> 2. If work is your support system, your life exists on shaky ground This is why I despise it when the likes of Jack Ma, Elon Musk, et al try to promote a culture in which staying at work till 9pm or later and coming in on weekends is normalized, and tell everyone in their 20s that that's the only right way to live. It's horrible advice and incredibly short-sighted. Then you have the likes of TikTok who have meetings late into almost every evening and blame it on the time zone difference between USA and China, when they could have planned better, drawn lines, and have more reasonably-planned meeting times that fit both time zones. Employees in their 20s who don't know better just drink this Kool-aid and get burned out. Those people will never have time to make real friends outside of work, date healthily, or otherwise find a real support system that can emotionally support them without a conflict of interest with the workplace. The way you find that healthy support system is precisely by having evenings and weekends to yourself so you can go to venues where you can meet people outside of work.
- FooBarWidget 3y ago
  Yes big money exploit workers. What else is new?
  - klyrs 3y ago
    > What else is new? People are learning anew that they have a say in this relationship, and after decades of hiatus, starting to resist again.
    - starbugs 3y ago
      I hope people will one day learn that the cake is a lie. Nothing bad will happen if you dare to say no. Quite the opposite. It's a house of cards built on greed and fear.
- disgruntledphd2 3y ago
  > Then you have the likes of TikTok who have meetings late into almost every evening and blame it on the time zone difference between USA and China, when they could have planned better, drawn lines, and have more reasonably-planned meeting times that fit both time zones The only difference between TikTok and older fast growing consumer tech companies (Google, Facebook et al) is that their headquarters are not in the USA, so west coast employees are exposed to this. I remember seeing someone I used to work with at FB complain about this, and I smiled as this person used to try to put meetings in my calendar at 9pm on a Friday. I'm totally agreed with you in principle, but just pointing out that this isn't a new phenomenon that TikTok invented (though I hear they are pretty bad).
throwawaymaths 3y ago
Hate to say it but depending on your long term objectives taking a sabbatical might have been the worst thing to recover from burnout. You want to reassociate effort with reward, and the best way to do that is to work on small things related to what caused your burnout that will "guarantee wins with low expectations". By pivoting to something different you reinforce the association of the previous form of effort with failure (in the negative space of rewarding yourself for not doing it).
- haswell 3y ago
  The levels of stress I was enduring started causing physiological symptoms that eventually forced me to take medication to calm things down. It was also severely disrupting my sleep, which was causing other health problems. Setting aside any discussion of rewards, there were red flags everywhere telling me I had to take a step back, and fast (my doctors agreed). But beyond the physical health, this is all a matter of perspective and framing. If measured on the traditional metrics of reward vs. effort (shipping things, happy customers, compensation, respect of peers, interesting problems, etc.), I had no reason to burn out. The trouble is that most people are conditioned to believe without question that those are some of the the primary metrics/rewards that matter. For me personally, part of the burnout was due more to a misplaced emphasis on things that most people would classify as "wins", but from which I derived no personal satisfaction. Going deeper, much of the burnout wasn't related to work at all. And deeper still, some of the burnout was due to a deep misalignment between the work I was doing and my core values. What I really want out of life. Pivoting might be the worst thing for continuing down the path I was on, but to me that's a feature, not a bug.
  - freetinker 3y ago
    My experience, and analysis of it, bears striking similarities. Looking forward to your blog posts!
  - throwawaymaths 3y ago
    > Pivoting might be the worst thing for continuing down the path I was on, but to me that's a feature, not a bug. Love your perspective. I didn't want to assume (which is why I disclaimed in the first sentence). Hopefully my comment will still be helpful to people who don't want to pivot their life.
mahathu 3y ago
"When I start working again, it won’t involve picking up where I left off, but something completely different and oriented around these deeper realizations and helping other people find the same insights for themselves." Such condescending drivel. The first "realisation" is what is commonly taught within the first 5 sessions of cognitive behavioural therapy. The fifth seems like a move in the right direction for a person who considers (2) and (3) to be so enlightening to justify teaching other people about them, but ultimately coming up with purpuses for your life and ranking them sounds like setting yourself up for a lot of disappointment once the inevitable days where such self-proclaimed purposes can't be achieved come. Envisioning dedicating an entire blog to enlighten others about these "realisations" people generally have before turning 20 just makes you sound like a narcissist.
- haswell 3y ago
  > The first "realisation" is what is commonly taught within the first 5 sessions of cognitive behavioural therapy This is something I learned early and explored regularly in my therapy journey of many years, but I never directly experienced it until I had time off to explore it more deeply (mindfulness meditation, time in nature, photography all helped here). It's one thing to understand this conceptually. It's another thing entirely to experience it directly, and it's that delta that seems worth exploring. My goal in writing all of this out isn't to enlighten people, or to claim I've found the one true path, or to proclaim novel findings about the nature of self. But rather, to re-explore the interesting parts of the break and what worked/didn't work for my own clarity, and in case that information resonates with someone or helps them through their own stuff. In short: "this is what worked for me, might not work for you, do with that what you will". I'm certain it won't resonate with everyone, and I'm ok with that. To be honest, one of the biggest things that has made me think twice about this project is that I don't want people to think I'm taking myself too seriously. But your comment helped me realize that I'm not actually concerned about naysayers, so thank you for that!
starbugs 3y ago
Thank you for this. Now that I have ranted enough in the parent comment, here are my 2 maybe constructive cents: 1. Learn what it means to be relaxed again and make this your first priority. F** everything else, if necessary. Anxiety and stress don't have a chance if you aren't tense. 2. Go out into the sun and spend a lot of time in nature. If you can't get out of bed in the morning, make it a habit to go out first thing in the morning for an hour or so. Force yourself if need be at first. 3. When anxiety or self-blame start to emerge, feel it and focus on the feeling itself intensely. This makes it impossible for it to take over your mind. 4. Make fear a positive experience by using it for something positive, e.g. learning how to focus on your feelings or reframing it as thrill. 5. Try all methods you can find to cope. Everyone is different and not all methods work for everybody.
- haswell 3y ago
  +1 to all of the above. Especially “try stuff”. Going along with 3 and 4, realizing how much worse avoidance was than embracing anxiety and the causes of it was a game changer. The book “Flow” also applies here.
EatingWithForks 3y ago
Can you clarify no 1? What are you if not your thinking and your feeling? I'm not trying to be snarky, i am actually legit curious about how to develop a sense of self that doesn't have to do with, y'know, sensing.
- starbugs 3y ago
  You are the one who sees (or 'hears') the thoughts and feels the feelings. The reason this distinction makes sense is that, arguably, most if not all of 'your' thoughts and feelings are actually preconditioned from the outside. This lets you disidentify from an outside programming.
  - EatingWithForks 3y ago
    But how do you define yourself outside of thinking and feeling? Even the thought to disidentify is a thought, no? I don't understand.
    - starbugs 3y ago
      The thought 'disidentify' is just a word for describing the process of understanding it. Think about it like this: As long as you believe that you are your thoughts, you are identified with them. They are you. Can you control your thoughts? No? Ok, there's the problem. But you are not your thoughts, actually. You are able to 'hear' your thoughts. If it weren't so, who would be unable to control their thoughts in the thought experiment above? Did you ever walk down the street and suddenly have your mind comment on something you see without you having asked for it? Where did that thought come from? Did you intentionally cause it? Or did it just happen and you recognized it happily (or sadly) talking inside your mind for no good reason? Try the following experiment: Ask yourself what will be your next thought? What happens? If you really are your thoughts, then you should be able to know what the next one will be, no? Edit: You asked how do you define yourself? For me, it's easiest to think of me as the one who thinks or feels, or better "the one who can hear thoughts or feel feelings". Ultimately, I believe this is just another thought that helps deprogramming a conditioning. In reality, your 'self' does not even exist. It's a concept made up by the mind.
foothrowaway 3y ago
Agree w. most everything presented. Me, I support one disabled family member near full-time, another one 4 days of the week, and another occasionally (neighbor, on-call). I decided to give up alcohol a couple of years ago, got put into a weaning off of it over time (yeah, that rough). Every 18 months or so it flares back, now I am down to almost nothing (usually 2-4 shots every 12 hours, some days none(!)), and the past few months are very rough, worse than the past few years. Full-bore burn-out every other day. Working on this, but considering going back to alcoholism. > These things are nearly impossible to see while in the midst of a burnout state. Yep! Whiteboards help, write when good, erase the other notes when better.

systems_glitch 3y ago

You are the fuel or you are the fireman :/

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

smcleod 3y ago

Absolutely. Just like the fact that companies will make as much profit as they can get away with - they will treat their workers with as much, or near to as much as they can get away with.