7 ms·

Yeah I don't see this mentioned nearly often enough in this discussion: gasoline fumes are very toxic and carcinogenic, mainly because of the benzene, which is

Yeah I don't see this mentioned nearly often enough in this discussion: gasoline fumes are very toxic and carcinogenic, mainly because of the benzene, which is just terrible for you. It's not a huge deal if you pump your own gas, because it's just a couple minutes of exposure at most a few times a week, but when it's your job and so you're getting hours of exposure many times a week, that's a whole different ballgame. We were forcing people into this actually-very-dangerous but nonetheless minimum wage job for literally no benefit. It was fucked up.

rootusrootus 3y ago
This seems like a really easy thing to study and get reliable results. And assuming it is true, I'd expect some kind of class-action suit like we saw for mesothelioma.
- hedora 3y ago
  You mean like the one where a bunch of stewardesses got cancer from exactly this (due to planes sucking fumes into the HVAC system at the gate), then won a huge class action lawsuit? The airlines stopped pumping exhaust into passenger compartments for a few years, but then everyone forgot about the whole thing. Now you get that good-old-fashioned jet-fuel eye sting again until you wash your face after the end of the flight. On the bright side, I don't think there's been many studies showing the old results on studies of stewardesses transfer to today's flight attendants.
  - jhugo 3y ago
    > The airlines stopped pumping exhaust into passenger compartments for a few years This is way off the mark. All airliners except for the Boeing 787 [0] pressurise the cabin with bleed air. This is not "exhaust"; it's pressurised air extracted upstream from the combustion stage. There are certain situations where the engine may ingest its own exhaust, or the exhaust of an aircraft in front, or there may be an internal leak in the bleed system. All of these are unintended contamination of the bleed air, not a normal mode of operation. In addition, the compressors ahead of the bleed valves must be lubricated and it is possible for this lubricant to get into the air stream if maintenance (including cleaning) is not carried out properly. There was no period of time where airlines stopped pressurising the cabin with bleed air. It is the only source available on all airliners except the Boeing 787, and pressurisation is not optional. [0] The Boeing 787 uses electric compressors to provide cabin air. This avoids some of the risks (leaks inside the engine, for example), but does nothing to avoid others (ingestion of exhaust from the same aircraft in certain wind conditions or from the aircraft in front when taxiing, or lubricants from the compressors getting into the air stream). The compressors are located in the wing-to-body fairing so the possibility to ingest external contaminants is quite similar to in traditional bleed air systems. The most noticeable difference on the Boeing 787 is the higher cabin pressure (lower cabin altitude) and higher humidity, both of which are made possible by structural improvements including the use of composites. Similar improvements (lower cabin altitude and higher humidity) are also present on e.g. the Airbus A350 and A380, which nonetheless — like all other airliners except the 787 — use traditional bleed air for pressurisation.
    - vinay_ys 3y ago
      Oil fumes in passenger cabin air is a more common occurrence than everyone likes or wants to believe. I have personally experienced a very bad case of this once. Here's a pretty good paper surveying the root-causes for this issue – https://www.scirp.org/pdf/eng_2018041917372308.pdf https://www.scirp.org/pdf/eng_2018041917372308.pdf
      - jhugo 3y ago
        I agree with you that it's common, and it should get more attention than it does. My parent post is discussing the causes, which do not involve "airlines pumping exhaust into the cabin", and refuting the incorrect idea that they stopped using bleed air "for a few years". For those interested, further reading: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fume_event https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fume_event * Search https://avherald.com https://avherald.com for "fume" * https://www.aircraftcabinair.com https://www.aircraftcabinair.com
        hedora 3y ago
        I never mentioned bleed air, and trying to distinguish between oil fumes generated from the engines and engine exhaust is pedantic, at best.
        jhugo 3y ago
        Bleed air is (on any airliner except 787) what you are breathing in the cabin whenever the doors are closed and ground AC equipment is removed, so your post was implicitly about bleed air. It’s the air that is “pumped into the cabin”. Exhaust and oil fumes both get into cabin air through non-normal situations. They’re not “pumped in by airlines”, and suggesting that they are (or that they stopped for a while and then started again thinking nobody would notice) is sensationalist and incorrect.
    - hedora 3y ago
      There was a period of time when airlines stopped pressurizing cabins with bleed air while the planes were at the gate and the engines were running. That's exactly the circumstance where the vents upstream of the jet engines are able to pull in the jet exhaust. Every flight I've been on post-pandemic has pulled exhaust fumes into the cabin while waiting at the gate.
lost_tourist 3y ago
I don't hover around the gas while it's filling. I get back in my car or step up front (depending on how hot/cold it is)
- Ancapistani 3y ago
  People will tell you not to get back in the car, because it's dangerous. What's really dangerous is that potential static buildup getting in and out, which can discharge when you touch the nozzle. If you do get in and back out, make sure to ground yourself by touching the bare metal of the pump itself before you grab the nozzle. It's not perfect, but it's much safer than not taking the time to ground at all.
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    Is there data on this? I have never heard of this happening and I imagine there are millions of gas pumping events per day (or at least hundreds of thousands) where a person sets the nozzle, sits in the car, then comes back out. Compared to all the other risks of cars and gasoline, the relative risk seems miniscule.
    - ordersofmag 3y ago
      from back in 2008 "the Petroleum Equipment Institute, a trade group, found that there were at least 170 static electricity fires at gas stations from 1992 to 2006. Considering that the American Petroleum Institute estimates that there are 11 billion refuelings in the United States a year, the problem probably isn’t a big one." from https://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/27/automobiles/27STATIC.html https://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/27/automobiles/27STATIC.html I'll note that in the state I live (MN) it's technically illegal to get back in your car while pumping (you have to be " in close attendance to the dispenser nozzle").
    - Arrath 3y ago
      I know for certain I've discharged static electricity by touching metal of my car after getting in/out, or cleaning out trash, etc while the pump runs. Would that little spark be enough to ignite the vapors? I have no earthly idea.
sidewndr46 3y ago
The fumes actually make me nauseous basically instantly. My understanding is that modern vehicles can't vent the tank, so when you pump gas in vapor must exit via the same hole that the liquid is going in. So a fillup discharges ~20 gallons of fumes or something. There is basically always wind where I live. The pumps shut off automatically. So I just turn the pump on and walk over to the curb, upwind from the fumes.
- rootusrootus 3y ago
  This varies by state, but since we're talking about Oregon, I can tell you that Oregon requires fuel vapor recovery at the pump. Makes the nozzle bulkier and harder to work with, but doesn't discharge a bunch of fumes. Washington seems more lax about it, in my experience.
  - sidewndr46 3y ago
    oh yeah I stopped somewhere once that required this and banned the latching handle mechanism. It wouldn't actually allow me to put the nozzle into my truck so I inverted the weird rubber thing and shoved a water bottle into the handle so I didn't have to stand there while it filled the truck.
    - mikestew 3y ago
      For a lot of cars, the gas cap itself can be wedged into the pump handle to keep it latched. The auto shutoff will still work.
      - evilkorn 3y ago
        I'll have to try my gas cap but I normally used my wallet because it was already out from paying if the latch was broken or missing.
      - darreninthenet 3y ago
        It irritates me because we don't have those latches in the UK as it's illegal to pump petrol unattended - I believe this extends to the EU as its an EU law we've retained.
pmoriarty 3y ago
There could have been regulations requiring workers to wear respirators. If these fumes really are so dangerous then I'm surprised there hasn't been some kind of class action lawsuit filed for workplace health and safety violations.
- Ancapistani 3y ago
  > There could have been regulations requiring workers to wear respirators. It's already absurd on its face that everywhere else in the country - or hell, in the _world_ - just lets people pump their own gas. Having gas station attendants in respirators in Oregon would just take it to a whole new level.
  - NovemberWhiskey 3y ago
    >in the _world_ ... not Japan. Or at least, not when I lived there. Maybe things have moved on. ハイオクで満タンお願いします
    - worik 3y ago
      그러나 나는 이해하지 않는다
    - pezezin 3y ago
      How long ago was that? I have been living in Japan for almost 5 years, and I usually pump my own gas. It depends on the gas station though, many (usually the small ones) are still full-service only.
      - NovemberWhiskey 3y ago
        2012.
      - Karrot_Kream 3y ago
        It depends. A lot of stations off the expressway have full service where they fill your gas and offer to clean your windshields. Also depends on where, I still find a lot of full-service stations in Hokkaido.
no_wizard 3y ago
Honestly, that excuse is why there was the compromise provision in this bill that mandates half of the pumps must remain full service. The only reason this passed at all is because of COVID. Gas stations are complaining pretty uniformly and quite loudly that they can't get their labor levels back to pre-COVID levels
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  Gas stations can get their labor levels back. Make the gas $20 per gallon and pay an attendant $100 per hour. But that would not be popular, and so the current staffing levels are also not popular, so there is finally sufficient political pressure to somewhat drop the gas station attendant requirement. Let labor prices keep going up, and soon no gas station attendants will be required because voters will want cheaper gas prices more than they want someone to fill their gas.
  - Arrath 3y ago
    Shit I might work the pumps for $100 an hour, if part time. Full face respirator for the fumes and I'm golden.
    - Aleksdev 3y ago
      Some sunglasses and a nice cold beverage and it sounds like a fun Sunday morning!
  - meragrin_ 3y ago
    It seems to me you are saying gas stations cannot get their labor levels back.
    - vineyardmike 3y ago
      Get labor levels back and get labor levels back at below market rate are different. Market rate changes for jobs and some corporations (and people) seem to think that people should take jobs as offered even when they’re bad. We have record low unemployment, yet companies that complain about labor levels are basically outing themselves as bad employers, for some definitions of bad (pay, safety, comfort, etc).
userbinator 3y ago
I don't think it's quite so bad compared to many other things, and the amount of benzene and other aromatics in gasoline is deliberately regulated to a low level due to its toxicity: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzene#Component_of_gasoline https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzene#Component_of_gasoline There have been many automotive enthusiasts who lived past median life expectancy and died of something other than cancer, and those are people who have likely been exposed to far more other solvents than the rest of the population.

rootusrootus 3y ago

This seems like a really easy thing to study and get reliable results. And assuming it is true, I'd expect some kind of class-action suit like we saw for mesothelioma.

hedora 3y ago
You mean like the one where a bunch of stewardesses got cancer from exactly this (due to planes sucking fumes into the HVAC system at the gate), then won a huge class action lawsuit? The airlines stopped pumping exhaust into passenger compartments for a few years, but then everyone forgot about the whole thing. Now you get that good-old-fashioned jet-fuel eye sting again until you wash your face after the end of the flight. On the bright side, I don't think there's been many studies showing the old results on studies of stewardesses transfer to today's flight attendants.
- jhugo 3y ago
  > The airlines stopped pumping exhaust into passenger compartments for a few years This is way off the mark. All airliners except for the Boeing 787 [0] pressurise the cabin with bleed air. This is not "exhaust"; it's pressurised air extracted upstream from the combustion stage. There are certain situations where the engine may ingest its own exhaust, or the exhaust of an aircraft in front, or there may be an internal leak in the bleed system. All of these are unintended contamination of the bleed air, not a normal mode of operation. In addition, the compressors ahead of the bleed valves must be lubricated and it is possible for this lubricant to get into the air stream if maintenance (including cleaning) is not carried out properly. There was no period of time where airlines stopped pressurising the cabin with bleed air. It is the only source available on all airliners except the Boeing 787, and pressurisation is not optional. [0] The Boeing 787 uses electric compressors to provide cabin air. This avoids some of the risks (leaks inside the engine, for example), but does nothing to avoid others (ingestion of exhaust from the same aircraft in certain wind conditions or from the aircraft in front when taxiing, or lubricants from the compressors getting into the air stream). The compressors are located in the wing-to-body fairing so the possibility to ingest external contaminants is quite similar to in traditional bleed air systems. The most noticeable difference on the Boeing 787 is the higher cabin pressure (lower cabin altitude) and higher humidity, both of which are made possible by structural improvements including the use of composites. Similar improvements (lower cabin altitude and higher humidity) are also present on e.g. the Airbus A350 and A380, which nonetheless — like all other airliners except the 787 — use traditional bleed air for pressurisation.
  - vinay_ys 3y ago
    Oil fumes in passenger cabin air is a more common occurrence than everyone likes or wants to believe. I have personally experienced a very bad case of this once. Here's a pretty good paper surveying the root-causes for this issue – https://www.scirp.org/pdf/eng_2018041917372308.pdf https://www.scirp.org/pdf/eng_2018041917372308.pdf
    - jhugo 3y ago
      I agree with you that it's common, and it should get more attention than it does. My parent post is discussing the causes, which do not involve "airlines pumping exhaust into the cabin", and refuting the incorrect idea that they stopped using bleed air "for a few years". For those interested, further reading: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fume_event https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fume_event * Search https://avherald.com https://avherald.com for "fume" * https://www.aircraftcabinair.com https://www.aircraftcabinair.com
      - hedora 3y ago
        I never mentioned bleed air, and trying to distinguish between oil fumes generated from the engines and engine exhaust is pedantic, at best.
        jhugo 3y ago
        Bleed air is (on any airliner except 787) what you are breathing in the cabin whenever the doors are closed and ground AC equipment is removed, so your post was implicitly about bleed air. It’s the air that is “pumped into the cabin”. Exhaust and oil fumes both get into cabin air through non-normal situations. They’re not “pumped in by airlines”, and suggesting that they are (or that they stopped for a while and then started again thinking nobody would notice) is sensationalist and incorrect.
  - hedora 3y ago
    There was a period of time when airlines stopped pressurizing cabins with bleed air while the planes were at the gate and the engines were running. That's exactly the circumstance where the vents upstream of the jet engines are able to pull in the jet exhaust. Every flight I've been on post-pandemic has pulled exhaust fumes into the cabin while waiting at the gate.

lost_tourist 3y ago

I don't hover around the gas while it's filling. I get back in my car or step up front (depending on how hot/cold it is)

Ancapistani 3y ago
People will tell you not to get back in the car, because it's dangerous. What's really dangerous is that potential static buildup getting in and out, which can discharge when you touch the nozzle. If you do get in and back out, make sure to ground yourself by touching the bare metal of the pump itself before you grab the nozzle. It's not perfect, but it's much safer than not taking the time to ground at all.
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  Is there data on this? I have never heard of this happening and I imagine there are millions of gas pumping events per day (or at least hundreds of thousands) where a person sets the nozzle, sits in the car, then comes back out. Compared to all the other risks of cars and gasoline, the relative risk seems miniscule.
  - ordersofmag 3y ago
    from back in 2008 "the Petroleum Equipment Institute, a trade group, found that there were at least 170 static electricity fires at gas stations from 1992 to 2006. Considering that the American Petroleum Institute estimates that there are 11 billion refuelings in the United States a year, the problem probably isn’t a big one." from https://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/27/automobiles/27STATIC.html https://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/27/automobiles/27STATIC.html I'll note that in the state I live (MN) it's technically illegal to get back in your car while pumping (you have to be " in close attendance to the dispenser nozzle").
  - Arrath 3y ago
    I know for certain I've discharged static electricity by touching metal of my car after getting in/out, or cleaning out trash, etc while the pump runs. Would that little spark be enough to ignite the vapors? I have no earthly idea.

sidewndr46 3y ago

The fumes actually make me nauseous basically instantly. My understanding is that modern vehicles can't vent the tank, so when you pump gas in vapor must exit via the same hole that the liquid is going in. So a fillup discharges ~20 gallons of fumes or something. There is basically always wind where I live. The pumps shut off automatically. So I just turn the pump on and walk over to the curb, upwind from the fumes.

rootusrootus 3y ago
This varies by state, but since we're talking about Oregon, I can tell you that Oregon requires fuel vapor recovery at the pump. Makes the nozzle bulkier and harder to work with, but doesn't discharge a bunch of fumes. Washington seems more lax about it, in my experience.
- sidewndr46 3y ago
  oh yeah I stopped somewhere once that required this and banned the latching handle mechanism. It wouldn't actually allow me to put the nozzle into my truck so I inverted the weird rubber thing and shoved a water bottle into the handle so I didn't have to stand there while it filled the truck.
  - mikestew 3y ago
    For a lot of cars, the gas cap itself can be wedged into the pump handle to keep it latched. The auto shutoff will still work.
    - evilkorn 3y ago
      I'll have to try my gas cap but I normally used my wallet because it was already out from paying if the latch was broken or missing.
    - darreninthenet 3y ago
      It irritates me because we don't have those latches in the UK as it's illegal to pump petrol unattended - I believe this extends to the EU as its an EU law we've retained.

pmoriarty 3y ago

There could have been regulations requiring workers to wear respirators. If these fumes really are so dangerous then I'm surprised there hasn't been some kind of class action lawsuit filed for workplace health and safety violations.

Ancapistani 3y ago
> There could have been regulations requiring workers to wear respirators. It's already absurd on its face that everywhere else in the country - or hell, in the _world_ - just lets people pump their own gas. Having gas station attendants in respirators in Oregon would just take it to a whole new level.
- NovemberWhiskey 3y ago
  >in the _world_ ... not Japan. Or at least, not when I lived there. Maybe things have moved on. ハイオクで満タンお願いします
  - worik 3y ago
    그러나 나는 이해하지 않는다
  - pezezin 3y ago
    How long ago was that? I have been living in Japan for almost 5 years, and I usually pump my own gas. It depends on the gas station though, many (usually the small ones) are still full-service only.
    - NovemberWhiskey 3y ago
      2012.
    - Karrot_Kream 3y ago
      It depends. A lot of stations off the expressway have full service where they fill your gas and offer to clean your windshields. Also depends on where, I still find a lot of full-service stations in Hokkaido.

no_wizard 3y ago

Honestly, that excuse is why there was the compromise provision in this bill that mandates half of the pumps must remain full service. The only reason this passed at all is because of COVID. Gas stations are complaining pretty uniformly and quite loudly that they can't get their labor levels back to pre-COVID levels

lotsofpulp 3y ago
Gas stations can get their labor levels back. Make the gas $20 per gallon and pay an attendant $100 per hour. But that would not be popular, and so the current staffing levels are also not popular, so there is finally sufficient political pressure to somewhat drop the gas station attendant requirement. Let labor prices keep going up, and soon no gas station attendants will be required because voters will want cheaper gas prices more than they want someone to fill their gas.
- Arrath 3y ago
  Shit I might work the pumps for $100 an hour, if part time. Full face respirator for the fumes and I'm golden.
  - Aleksdev 3y ago
    Some sunglasses and a nice cold beverage and it sounds like a fun Sunday morning!
- meragrin_ 3y ago
  It seems to me you are saying gas stations cannot get their labor levels back.
  - vineyardmike 3y ago
    Get labor levels back and get labor levels back at below market rate are different. Market rate changes for jobs and some corporations (and people) seem to think that people should take jobs as offered even when they’re bad. We have record low unemployment, yet companies that complain about labor levels are basically outing themselves as bad employers, for some definitions of bad (pay, safety, comfort, etc).

userbinator 3y ago

I don't think it's quite so bad compared to many other things, and the amount of benzene and other aromatics in gasoline is deliberately regulated to a low level due to its toxicity: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzene#Component_of_gasoline https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzene#Component_of_gasoline There have been many automotive enthusiasts who lived past median life expectancy and died of something other than cancer, and those are people who have likely been exposed to far more other solvents than the rest of the population.