4 ms·

I meant stuff like city counsel passing a new zoning law. Maybe some concrete bollards to make a protected bike lane. Run a few more busses and trains. That kin

by pkulak 3y ago

I meant stuff like city counsel passing a new zoning law. Maybe some concrete bollards to make a protected bike lane. Run a few more busses and trains. That kind of thing.

lotsofpulp 3y ago
My point is that does nothing, because the root problem of destinations being too far from one another is not addressed. A few more buses and trains are not going to cut it. You need to outcompete the convenience of a personal car. The bus or train has to run at least every 10min, otherwise one missed connection and you’re wasting 20min+ with your refrigerated groceries. And that type of frequency is simply not economical without density. Chicken and egg at this point. Best case scenario is to build outwards from already dense areas, but it will involve eminent domain and demolishing buildings and parking lots to make new ones that are pedestrian friendly and hostile to cars.
- ryukafalz 3y ago
  Zoning changes and removal of parking minimums are the first steps towards bringing things closer together though, and that can happen at the stroke of a pen. Towns can't begin to densify until they're permitted to do so. Allow someone to build an apartment building on top of that enormous parking lot next to a shopping center, and in many cases I don't think you'd need eminent domain; it'll happen simply because the apartment building is more profitable than the surface parking lot. (Though a good form-based code might help to nudge things in the direction of walkability too.)
- evandale 3y ago
  > A few more buses and trains are not going to cut it. So add more buses and trains. > You need to outcompete the convenience of a personal car. More buses and trains will make this happen. More bike lanes will make this happen. With the proper infrastructure people can go longer distances without a car. All these things can be done incrementally and you're trying to claim they can't be. > The bus or train has to run at least every 10min, otherwise one missed connection and you’re wasting 20min+ with your refrigerated groceries. No it doesn't and your groceries are fine being out in the heat for 20 minutes. They won't go bad. They could be out there for 2 hours and be fine. https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/are-you-storing-food-safely https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/are-you-stori... > Refrigerate or freeze perishables right away. Foods that require refrigeration should be put in the refrigerator as soon as you get them home. Stick to the "two-hour rule" for leaving items needing refrigeration out at room temperature. Never allow meat, poultry, seafood, eggs, or produce or other foods that require refrigeration to sit at room temperature for more than two hours—one hour if the air temperature is above 90° F. This also applies to items such as leftovers, "doggie bags," and take-out foods. Also, when putting food away, don't crowd the refrigerator or freezer so tightly that air can't circulate. On top of that, this two-hour thing is a general guideline for maximum safety and is overly restrictive on purpose to avoid ambiguity. Realistically you could leave things out for longer but the FDA would never admit that because it sends mixed messages.
  - SauciestGNU 3y ago
    Another note on the refrigeration issue - I get around predominantly by bike, and if I need to I have a soft cooler (like delivery people use) that I can put an ice pack in to transport frozen goods. But last night I went out with just a backpack in 80F heat and bought ice cream that survived the 20 minute trip home just fine.
  - marcosdumay 3y ago
    > your groceries are fine being out in the heat for 20 minutes It's not 20 minutes. It's 20 minutes more than the normal trip duration. That 2 hours rule seems to be health related. But a lot of food gets bad much before it becomes unsafe to eat. Anyway, city traffic is not caused by people getting to a grocery store. That's all a red herring.
    - evandale 3y ago
      > That 2 hours rule seems to be health related. But a lot of food gets bad much before it becomes unsafe to eat. Name one that does that in a 6 hour time period. > It's not 20 minutes. It's 20 minutes more than the normal trip duration. Tomato tomato. It's a negligible time period. Food out for 3 hours and 20 minutes is not going to be worse off than food out for 3 hours. > Anyway, city traffic is not caused by people getting to a grocery store. That's all a red herring. City traffic is caused by people driving cars. People drive cars to grocery stores. City traffic isn't caused by bike lanes, buses, or trains either. That's all a red herring. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2019/jul/03/ten-common-myths-about-bike-lanes-and-why-theyre-wrong https://www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2019/jul/0... [0]> But fluid and traffic are not the same thing, as shown by 60 years of governments trying and failing to road-build their way out of congestion. The idea of induced demand – more road space brings more cars – has been known for decades, and it also works in reverse. This is especially so with bike lanes, which are such an efficient use of the same space that they can often mean the same amount of space carrying more people overall. [1]> Yes, traffic jams have worsened in some cities where bike lanes have been built, but studies show this is largely down to other factors, for example the growth in the number of Uber-type private hire vehicles and Amazon delivery vans. [0] https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/induced-travel-demand-an-evidence-review https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/induced-travel-de... [1] https://content.tfl.gov.uk/understanding-and-managing-congestion-in-london.pdf https://content.tfl.gov.uk/understanding-and-managing-conges...
- pkulak 3y ago
  Zoning is how you start to fix density issues. And getting rid of parking minimums. Charging fair market rates for existing parking can funnel more money in to public transport while also making it the cheaper option. Dedicated bus lanes and signaling changes can make busses faster than cars. All of those can be done with words written on paper or paint on roads.
sidewndr46 3y ago
Where I live the city council deliberately rezones the city on a regular basis in a manner contrary to state law. Each time, it's overturned by the same group of citizens. It's a deliberate political tactic so they can tell voters "well we're trying to fix the issue but the awful government won't let us!". This way they can campaign on the same issues until the heat death of the universe. All the NIMBYs know in practice it is safe to vote for them, as they will never rezone the city.

by pkulak 3y ago

I meant stuff like city counsel passing a new zoning law. Maybe some concrete bollards to make a protected bike lane. Run a few more busses and trains. That kind of thing.

lotsofpulp 3y ago

My point is that does nothing, because the root problem of destinations being too far from one another is not addressed. A few more buses and trains are not going to cut it. You need to outcompete the convenience of a personal car. The bus or train has to run at least every 10min, otherwise one missed connection and you’re wasting 20min+ with your refrigerated groceries. And that type of frequency is simply not economical without density. Chicken and egg at this point. Best case scenario is to build outwards from already dense areas, but it will involve eminent domain and demolishing buildings and parking lots to make new ones that are pedestrian friendly and hostile to cars.

ryukafalz 3y ago
Zoning changes and removal of parking minimums are the first steps towards bringing things closer together though, and that can happen at the stroke of a pen. Towns can't begin to densify until they're permitted to do so. Allow someone to build an apartment building on top of that enormous parking lot next to a shopping center, and in many cases I don't think you'd need eminent domain; it'll happen simply because the apartment building is more profitable than the surface parking lot. (Though a good form-based code might help to nudge things in the direction of walkability too.)
evandale 3y ago
> A few more buses and trains are not going to cut it. So add more buses and trains. > You need to outcompete the convenience of a personal car. More buses and trains will make this happen. More bike lanes will make this happen. With the proper infrastructure people can go longer distances without a car. All these things can be done incrementally and you're trying to claim they can't be. > The bus or train has to run at least every 10min, otherwise one missed connection and you’re wasting 20min+ with your refrigerated groceries. No it doesn't and your groceries are fine being out in the heat for 20 minutes. They won't go bad. They could be out there for 2 hours and be fine. https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/are-you-storing-food-safely https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/are-you-stori... > Refrigerate or freeze perishables right away. Foods that require refrigeration should be put in the refrigerator as soon as you get them home. Stick to the "two-hour rule" for leaving items needing refrigeration out at room temperature. Never allow meat, poultry, seafood, eggs, or produce or other foods that require refrigeration to sit at room temperature for more than two hours—one hour if the air temperature is above 90° F. This also applies to items such as leftovers, "doggie bags," and take-out foods. Also, when putting food away, don't crowd the refrigerator or freezer so tightly that air can't circulate. On top of that, this two-hour thing is a general guideline for maximum safety and is overly restrictive on purpose to avoid ambiguity. Realistically you could leave things out for longer but the FDA would never admit that because it sends mixed messages.
- SauciestGNU 3y ago
  Another note on the refrigeration issue - I get around predominantly by bike, and if I need to I have a soft cooler (like delivery people use) that I can put an ice pack in to transport frozen goods. But last night I went out with just a backpack in 80F heat and bought ice cream that survived the 20 minute trip home just fine.
- marcosdumay 3y ago
  > your groceries are fine being out in the heat for 20 minutes It's not 20 minutes. It's 20 minutes more than the normal trip duration. That 2 hours rule seems to be health related. But a lot of food gets bad much before it becomes unsafe to eat. Anyway, city traffic is not caused by people getting to a grocery store. That's all a red herring.
  - evandale 3y ago
    > That 2 hours rule seems to be health related. But a lot of food gets bad much before it becomes unsafe to eat. Name one that does that in a 6 hour time period. > It's not 20 minutes. It's 20 minutes more than the normal trip duration. Tomato tomato. It's a negligible time period. Food out for 3 hours and 20 minutes is not going to be worse off than food out for 3 hours. > Anyway, city traffic is not caused by people getting to a grocery store. That's all a red herring. City traffic is caused by people driving cars. People drive cars to grocery stores. City traffic isn't caused by bike lanes, buses, or trains either. That's all a red herring. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2019/jul/03/ten-common-myths-about-bike-lanes-and-why-theyre-wrong https://www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2019/jul/0... [0]> But fluid and traffic are not the same thing, as shown by 60 years of governments trying and failing to road-build their way out of congestion. The idea of induced demand – more road space brings more cars – has been known for decades, and it also works in reverse. This is especially so with bike lanes, which are such an efficient use of the same space that they can often mean the same amount of space carrying more people overall. [1]> Yes, traffic jams have worsened in some cities where bike lanes have been built, but studies show this is largely down to other factors, for example the growth in the number of Uber-type private hire vehicles and Amazon delivery vans. [0] https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/induced-travel-demand-an-evidence-review https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/induced-travel-de... [1] https://content.tfl.gov.uk/understanding-and-managing-congestion-in-london.pdf https://content.tfl.gov.uk/understanding-and-managing-conges...
pkulak 3y ago
Zoning is how you start to fix density issues. And getting rid of parking minimums. Charging fair market rates for existing parking can funnel more money in to public transport while also making it the cheaper option. Dedicated bus lanes and signaling changes can make busses faster than cars. All of those can be done with words written on paper or paint on roads.

sidewndr46 3y ago

Where I live the city council deliberately rezones the city on a regular basis in a manner contrary to state law. Each time, it's overturned by the same group of citizens. It's a deliberate political tactic so they can tell voters "well we're trying to fix the issue but the awful government won't let us!". This way they can campaign on the same issues until the heat death of the universe. All the NIMBYs know in practice it is safe to vote for them, as they will never rezone the city.