4 ms·

> I just know it's gonna be the patriarchy/masculinity, right? I don't think a single person blames masculinity for mens problems. Did you by any chance hear t

> I just know it's gonna be the patriarchy/masculinity, right? I don't think a single person blames masculinity for mens problems. Did you by any chance hear the word toxic masculinity and assume all masuclinity was under attack because that is not the same? Also, ngl your comment reads like "ohh why am I bleeding, without checking with a doctor I am gonna guess the answer is the knife lodged in my back, right?" Like the sarcastic tone is there but the answer is still right. Post-sarcasm is a 10 year old concept but damn your comment is almost museum worthy.

jadamson 3y ago
Name a positive masculine trait, something which men tend to have and women tend not to (should go without saying - it's not a "masculine" trait otherwise). I look forward to your rendition of 4'33".
- Arkhaine_kupo 3y ago
  > Name a positive masculine trait, something which men tend to have and women tend not to This question is wrong. I mean, in the sense that a valid english sentence does not mean a valid question. See for example "which colour is the number 4" or "how many notes does the capital of france have". They are syntactically valid questions but have no real meaning. There are no masculine traits that men have and women dont, that is not what masculinity even means. What traits, behaviours and modes of expression are related to masculinity (in western culture) are things such as leadership, honor, aggresion, competitiveness. There is a long history as to why this is the case, some cultural, some historical some arguable biological essentialist. But just because testosterone makes you more aggresive, and more competitive does not mean women are not, or can not be, competitive or ambitious. In the same veing that feminine traits like emotional regulation, teammwork, compassion etc are not something men do not have. It is not like men only do individual sports and women only do team sports. in other words, pitting them as exclussionary is framing the entire conversation wrong, and therefore even haviing this as an assumption "should go without saying - it's not a "masculine" trait otherwise" makes the entire question wrong. From false you can prove anything, is an old adage in formal logic F -> any(P) . but you cannot, and should not form a basis of "masculine traits are those not expressed by women", but "masculine traits are the cultural aspects related to masculinity in a specific culture". Now you can define masculinity and time period and culture and get an answer. But the definition of "not expressed by women" is just wrong from the offset.
  - jadamson 3y ago
    You've attempted to subtly rephrase the question - I said "tend" for a reason, thus I will sadly have to discard the rest of your post. In fact, it puzzles me why you bothered writing a wall of text here, surely you didn't believe this wouldn't be seen through instantly?
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - Arkhaine_kupo 3y ago
      > You've attempted to subtly rephrase the question I didn't. I just pointed out that definying masculinity as exclusionary from women is wrong by definition. Pointed out a number of traits that are currently considered masculine in modern western society and also pointed out how despite their definition we see tons of overlap on those formal categories. The part I objected too was defining masculinty as "should go without saying - it's not a "masculine" trait otherwise". To give a very obvious example. Blue is masculine and pink is feminine, this is inarguable however less than 100 years ago the opposite was true. It does goes with saying that masucline is not something men show and women tend not to. Because masculinity is not defined on biological essentialism, it is largely cultural. By starting with a false assumption "It cannot be masculine if men do not showcase this trait more than women" you can come to wrong conclusions, because from false you can prove anything.
      - jadamson 3y ago
        You did, you even replied for a moment removing the "tend" with an imaginary quote: > You said tend sure, but still defined masculine as "something women do not have". See the lack of Tend there. Tend was always there in my comment - twice. But even excepting that, there are still flaws in your argument. Firstly, my question was not related to biological essentialism. You can define "masculine" and "feminine" in a cultural context and still run into the same problem - which masculine traits, in the current cultural environment, are positive? Secondly, we can trivially see from your examples that toxic and positive are flip-sides of the same thing. Traits you might define as positive, e.g. competitiveness and leadership require a degree of stoicism which would, in modern feminist terms, also be "toxic". Leaders of businesses can't be too concerned with putting their competitors out of a job, you can't lead an army (never mind fight in one) as a quivering wreck.
- cbolton 3y ago
  The following seem positive to me, and more commonly possessed by men: Strength, self-confidence, wealth, position of responsibility.
- Gareth321 3y ago
  > I look forward to your rendition of 4'33". Holy shit you absolutely NAILED their response.
  - Arkhaine_kupo 3y ago
    Loudest rendition of 4'33 ever

jadamson 3y ago

Name a positive masculine trait, something which men tend to have and women tend not to (should go without saying - it's not a "masculine" trait otherwise). I look forward to your rendition of 4'33".

Arkhaine_kupo 3y ago
> Name a positive masculine trait, something which men tend to have and women tend not to This question is wrong. I mean, in the sense that a valid english sentence does not mean a valid question. See for example "which colour is the number 4" or "how many notes does the capital of france have". They are syntactically valid questions but have no real meaning. There are no masculine traits that men have and women dont, that is not what masculinity even means. What traits, behaviours and modes of expression are related to masculinity (in western culture) are things such as leadership, honor, aggresion, competitiveness. There is a long history as to why this is the case, some cultural, some historical some arguable biological essentialist. But just because testosterone makes you more aggresive, and more competitive does not mean women are not, or can not be, competitive or ambitious. In the same veing that feminine traits like emotional regulation, teammwork, compassion etc are not something men do not have. It is not like men only do individual sports and women only do team sports. in other words, pitting them as exclussionary is framing the entire conversation wrong, and therefore even haviing this as an assumption "should go without saying - it's not a "masculine" trait otherwise" makes the entire question wrong. From false you can prove anything, is an old adage in formal logic F -> any(P) . but you cannot, and should not form a basis of "masculine traits are those not expressed by women", but "masculine traits are the cultural aspects related to masculinity in a specific culture". Now you can define masculinity and time period and culture and get an answer. But the definition of "not expressed by women" is just wrong from the offset.
- jadamson 3y ago
  You've attempted to subtly rephrase the question - I said "tend" for a reason, thus I will sadly have to discard the rest of your post. In fact, it puzzles me why you bothered writing a wall of text here, surely you didn't believe this wouldn't be seen through instantly?
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - Arkhaine_kupo 3y ago
    > You've attempted to subtly rephrase the question I didn't. I just pointed out that definying masculinity as exclusionary from women is wrong by definition. Pointed out a number of traits that are currently considered masculine in modern western society and also pointed out how despite their definition we see tons of overlap on those formal categories. The part I objected too was defining masculinty as "should go without saying - it's not a "masculine" trait otherwise". To give a very obvious example. Blue is masculine and pink is feminine, this is inarguable however less than 100 years ago the opposite was true. It does goes with saying that masucline is not something men show and women tend not to. Because masculinity is not defined on biological essentialism, it is largely cultural. By starting with a false assumption "It cannot be masculine if men do not showcase this trait more than women" you can come to wrong conclusions, because from false you can prove anything.
    - jadamson 3y ago
      You did, you even replied for a moment removing the "tend" with an imaginary quote: > You said tend sure, but still defined masculine as "something women do not have". See the lack of Tend there. Tend was always there in my comment - twice. But even excepting that, there are still flaws in your argument. Firstly, my question was not related to biological essentialism. You can define "masculine" and "feminine" in a cultural context and still run into the same problem - which masculine traits, in the current cultural environment, are positive? Secondly, we can trivially see from your examples that toxic and positive are flip-sides of the same thing. Traits you might define as positive, e.g. competitiveness and leadership require a degree of stoicism which would, in modern feminist terms, also be "toxic". Leaders of businesses can't be too concerned with putting their competitors out of a job, you can't lead an army (never mind fight in one) as a quivering wreck.
cbolton 3y ago
The following seem positive to me, and more commonly possessed by men: Strength, self-confidence, wealth, position of responsibility.
Gareth321 3y ago
> I look forward to your rendition of 4'33". Holy shit you absolutely NAILED their response.
- Arkhaine_kupo 3y ago
  Loudest rendition of 4'33 ever