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What's interesting is that I recently watched The Red Pill Documentary. I recall when it was released that the director, Cassie Jaye a self professed feminist w
by Khaine 3y ago
What's interesting is that I recently watched The Red Pill Documentary. I recall when it was released that the director, Cassie Jaye a self professed feminist was pilloried absolutely everywhere for giving a voice to Mens Rights Activists. The actual documentary is quite milquetoast.
What it is, is her engaging with the ideas around how in some ways men are disadvantaged in modern society. It's fascinating to me that the fundamental issue in the red pill is, whenever someone tries to point out where society is failing boys and men no-one listens and they get shouted down.
As pointed out by Corrine Barraclough, of the Australian tabloid newspaper The Daily Telegraph, who said in her review of the film that "the message of The Red Pill is compassion" and the film made her "wonder why feminists tried so hard to silence this crucial conversation."
- nicbou 3y agoThat was not my experience. The message was bitterness, and there is a reason their lot is poorly perceived. Try /r/menslib for a healthier discussion that isn’t centred around blaming women for everything.
- guerrilla 3y agoThey mean the message of the movie not the community.
- snehk 3y ago> that isn’t centred around blaming women for everything. Without clicking the link, I just know it's gonna be the patriarchy/masculinity, right?
- nicbou 3y agoKind of? It’s a bit of everything, because the place fosters civil discussion. It’s a pleasamt place to talk it out, which is the whole point.
- snehk 3y agoIf it fosters civil discussion because everything is discussed through the same lens that you agree with, which is the exact same view point as 4000 other feminist subreddits, then I'm not sure how it would add anything.
- Arkhaine_kupo 3y ago> I just know it's gonna be the patriarchy/masculinity, right? I don't think a single person blames masculinity for mens problems. Did you by any chance hear the word toxic masculinity and assume all masuclinity was under attack because that is not the same? Also, ngl your comment reads like "ohh why am I bleeding, without checking with a doctor I am gonna guess the answer is the knife lodged in my back, right?" Like the sarcastic tone is there but the answer is still right. Post-sarcasm is a 10 year old concept but damn your comment is almost museum worthy.
- jadamson 3y agoName a positive masculine trait, something which men tend to have and women tend not to (should go without saying - it's not a "masculine" trait otherwise). I look forward to your rendition of 4'33".
- Arkhaine_kupo 3y ago> Name a positive masculine trait, something which men tend to have and women tend not to This question is wrong. I mean, in the sense that a valid english sentence does not mean a valid question. See for example "which colour is the number 4" or "how many notes does the capital of france have". They are syntactically valid questions but have no real meaning. There are no masculine traits that men have and women dont, that is not what masculinity even means. What traits, behaviours and modes of expression are related to masculinity (in western culture) are things such as leadership, honor, aggresion, competitiveness. There is a long history as to why this is the case, some cultural, some historical some arguable biological essentialist. But just because testosterone makes you more aggresive, and more competitive does not mean women are not, or can not be, competitive or ambitious. In the same veing that feminine traits like emotional regulation, teammwork, compassion etc are not something men do not have. It is not like men only do individual sports and women only do team sports. in other words, pitting them as exclussionary is framing the entire conversation wrong, and therefore even haviing this as an assumption "should go without saying - it's not a "masculine" trait otherwise" makes the entire question wrong. From false you can prove anything, is an old adage in formal logic F -> any(P) . but you cannot, and should not form a basis of "masculine traits are those not expressed by women", but "masculine traits are the cultural aspects related to masculinity in a specific culture". Now you can define masculinity and time period and culture and get an answer. But the definition of "not expressed by women" is just wrong from the offset.
- Der_Einzige 3y agoSorry, any mention of "biological essentialism" is explicitly banned there. Unfortunately, a lot of biology is indeed objective essentialist. It's a terrible subreddit made for people who think that the solution to every problem that men face is to simply go read "Come as You Are" or some other shit from Bell Hooks.
- cies 3y agoSo biology says tomato is a fruit. In the kitchen we consider it a vegetable. Could the same be true for the whole gender discussion? That biology gets side-stepped in the name of common sense (that does not answer questions regarding toilets, sports competitions and mis-pronouning; but it would give us some space without totally invalidating biology)
- zmgsabst 3y agoBut the whole tension is over sports: Do we base sports on the biological reality of sex or mute our awareness of that objective fact[1] to preference “identity” — even if the outcome is females[2] no longer having a space to compete? [1] - Humans like other apes (and mammals) are sexually dimorphic. [2] - Female is the scientific term referring to the sex.
- cies 3y agoI think in sports we should "call a tomato a fruit" where at work/school/sociallife we should call a tomato a vegetable is the tomato wishes to be called a vegetable. :) It does not make sense in sports. Otherwise the women's leagues would become trans-leagues.
- bounck 3y ago[flagged]
- KptMarchewa 3y ago[flagged]
- bobsmooth 3y agoWarning, if you are a man with low self-esteem do not visit that sub.
- bobsmooth 3y agoIf you need an example: "I'm nearing 30. I've internalized the "leave women alone at all times" and "men are trash" rhetoric so hard that I almost consider myself a burden to them simply by existing. I've gone out of my way to minimize interactions with women because I've catastrophized that my mere presence is bothersome." https://old.reddit.com/r/MensLib/comments/13ov3wh/spare_a_kind_thought_for_the_polite_horny_teen_boy/jl6ecvw/ https://old.reddit.com/r/MensLib/comments/13ov3wh/spare_a_ki...
- Workaccount2 3y agoI've heard conspiracy that 3rd wave feminism is just a tool for filtering out weak men like this guy.
- jadamson 3y ago[flagged]
- zb3 3y agoDoes that disqualify their problems? I don't get your sentiment.
- jadamson 3y agoMensLib is overflowing with the kind of male feminist who will sling around "incel" as an insult for even the most milquetoast of takes. And since the Red Pill documentary (bad name, middling content) was mentioned, I'll also point out that one of the feminists who featured in it was later outed as a sex pest, despite desperately trying to position himself as One of the Good Ones™: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Kimmel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Kimmel At best, MensLib types are annoying sycophants. At worst, they're wolves in sheep's clothing. In both cases, it's comedy. That's not to say that Andrew Tate et al. aren't issues as well, but at least they're dressed appropriately.
- mpweiher 3y ago> outed as a sex pest Accused. Last I checked these were different things.
- belorn 3y agoIt wasn't that many years ago people did word bubble (frequencies) of reddit subreddits, and both Feminist and Mens Rights Activists subs was very similar. The most common word in the Feminist one was "Men", and the most common word for Mens Rights Activists was Women". The second most common word was also symmetric, Women in the first and Men in the other. It is not symmetric to assume that all female equality issues and all male equality issues must be the fault of men. People are human. Faults in human society is from humans, and humans are 50% women and 50% men.
- tsss 3y ago/r/menslib is a honey pot by radical feminist super mods who delete absolutely everything that is even remotely not "xyz, but women still have it worse". It's probably one of the most censored subreddits, which is quite an achievement. Instead, take a look at /r/leftwingmaleadvocates for some actual discussion.
- Slava_Propanei 3y ago[dead]
- robertlagrant 3y agoThe director did a good Tedx talk[0] if anyone would like a tl;dr. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WMuzhQXJoY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WMuzhQXJoY
- leokennis 3y agoJust FYI, TEDx is no guarantee at all about the credentials or worthiness of a talk: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TED_(conference)#TEDx https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TED_(conference)#TEDx > TEDx are independent events similar to TED in presentation. They can be organized by anyone who obtains a free license from TED, and agrees to follow certain principles. TEDx events are required to be non-profit, but organizers may use an admission fee or commercial sponsorship to cover costs.
- hef19898 3y agoGenerally speaking, fame is no guarantee for credentials neither.
- bobsmooth 3y agoThere's a way to judge the merit of someone's words, it's called listening.
- mrguyorama 3y agoTED proper is just rich people playing gentlemen science again. There's been a lot of pseudoscience and self help gurus in those talks.
- robertlagrant 3y ago> Just FYI, TEDx is no guarantee at all about the credentials or worthiness of a talk This is true, but that's true of all talks (and credentials). It's also no guarantee that I said it was a good talk. But here we are.
- globular-toast 3y agoI don't know if this was considered in the film (I haven't seen it), but the difference between how men's and women's issues are treated is quite obvious to me. It's due to an imbalance in the care matrix. If we think broadly about who cares about whom, it goes like this: * Men care about women because they want to mate with them, * Women care about women because it's in their own best interest to look after each other (men only care about them for selfish reasons), * Men don't care about men because it's not in their own best interest to do so, in fact it's advantageous to defeat other men, * Women don't care about men because it's not in their own best interest to do so. Essentially, women support each other, men compete with each other.
- mpweiher 3y agoYep. Gender differences in automatic in-group bias: why do women like women more than men like men? https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15491274/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15491274/
- itronitron 3y agoA better title for that would have been ... why do women like more women than men like more men?
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- xiphias2 3y agoIn every species female is the selector, that's how natural selection works. Generally in a group of healthy young population with 50% sex ratio, about half of the men are selected, and they help eachother. But in the online dating / birth control age this ratio has gone more extreme, and there's no real ,,parenting advice'' or emotional need support that can help, just accepting the new normal for everyone, and competing harder.
- nzach 3y ago>In every species female is the selector, that's how natural selection works. Maybe that is true if you are only talking about mammals. But it is certainly not true in general. Here is an example directly from Wikipedia: "In the size dimorphic wolf spider Tigrosa helluo, food-limited females cannibalize more frequently. Therefore, there is a high risk of low fitness for males due to pre-copulatory cannibalism, which led to male selection of larger females for two reasons: higher fecundity and lower rates of cannibalism."[0] This means that in this species of spider is the male who applies the selective pressure. You can look into sexual monomorphism/dimorphism to find more examples. [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_dimorphism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_dimorphism
- wmidwestranger 3y agoI feel the same about "The Red Pill" movie and couldn't see how the criticism aligned with the reality. What I do see often is that entrenched actors and groups will attack, with specially reserved ardor, any artist or production taking a position of understanding and shared interest between groups or actors that are meant to be at odds. With this movie, the critics could have said the filmmaker, Alex Lee Moyer, avoided the most misogynistic fringe that could be associated with the Men's Rights movement and been correct but that would undermine the safe thing to say, that the _entire_ Men's Rights movement is fringe and misogynistic. I'm not especially interested in Men's Rights but I thought the movie was a refreshing surprise, commend the risk taken by the creator, and hope people continue to take risks when the evidence leads them into the unexpected. PS: The film maker went on to make "TFW No GF" which followed and explored lonely, young men. Searching "Alex Lee Moyer", the second result is a Rolling Stone article on this movie with the headline, "‘TFW No GF’ Is a Deeply Uncomfortable Portrayal of Incel Culture". Here are just a couple quotes that show how much bull this director has had thrown her way for her troubles: > This non-judgmental approach has made many viewers deeply uncomfortable, with writer Eric Langberg tweeting that the film is “one of the most irresponsible docs I’ve ever seen,” leading to a barrage of abuse from incels on Twitter. > But even if you believe that objectivity is the best approach to capturing a subculture marked by misogyny, violence, and racism, it’s hard to accept the argument that the film’s relationship with its subjects is wholly objective in the first place. Clearly, how dare she go and explore this sub-culture by meeting and filming some of its members, willing or not, without reminding the audience that these are bad people that say bad things on the internet and laugh at bad jokes.
- dri_ft 3y agoDon't think Alex Lee Moyer had a thing to do with the Red Pill.
- prepend 3y ago> couldn't see how the criticism aligned with the reality. I think it’s the same phenomenon of people skipping the article and going straight to the comments where they make statements based on the headline and their own existing contexts. By the time they learn the content, if they ever do, they dig in and try to defend their positions. I think this is caused by the incentive is for karma/whuffie/whatever rather than actual knowledge and benefit to fellow man. So macro is that the first to comment gets the most points. And everything else is downstream results. So people assume the doc is about bad people doing bad things and talk like that. It doesn’t help that it also falls into the complex zone of “Hitler loved dogs” where people who truly are jerks also are into redpill stuff, but likely a very small percent of the total number. So it’s easy to make reductive comments of “this jerk is into redpill let’s talk about him and get more clicks and ignore the thousands of men blowing their brains out [0]” [0] about 80% of US suicides in the 2021 were men, https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/suicide-rate-by-gender/ https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/suicide-rate-by-ge... The rate different isn’t as stark globally but still much higher for men than women, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_differences_in_suicide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_differences_in_suicide
- Slava_Propanei 3y ago[dead]